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The placebo effect is pretty powerful, so if people are willing to bypass sense and reason to get that, I am going to go out on a limb and say no harm done.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:07 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
Might as well leave it there. You don't believe me.
What don't I believe?
The post above describes how it could have worked and a subsequent post links to an article showing how you don't even have to believe it will work for it to sometimes work.
SB
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 with 2533 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 14:45 - Sep 6 by Ryorry
Prof Cyril Smith of Salford Uni (now retired) said it's down to no actual chemicals in the water, but the magnetic frequency that the water changes to once a trace of the introduced substance is in it.
I was a total sceptic & said it could never work, but was so desperate when everything else in conventional medicine had been tried & failed that I gave it a go. Worked 66% of the time (I kept records).
Also worked for my old dog's callapso'd back legs, and I don't think he was aware of the concept of the placebo effect.
Anecdotal I know.
That's the thing, deniers like Stokers don't really deal with these anecdotes. They just say it doesn't work and that's that. Would be great if someone could put a bit more effort in than that. We're not liars (and your dog certainly isn't)
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:03 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
So why are they only eased directly after I use this remedy? And this after having tried lots of other remedies.
You seem to have completely glossed over the point about maybe this is something science doesn't understand yet, and science-based evidence might be the wrong way.
They also miss the point that many things only become accepted scientific fact with the introduction of new scientific tests & technology that can show & analyse things for the first time years after they were first used and proved effective. E.g. all doctors said there was no explanation for my spinal problems - untill 20 years later MRI scanning came in, and showed/diagnosed the problem immediately.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]."
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
That's the thing, deniers like Stokers don't really deal with these anecdotes. They just say it doesn't work and that's that. Would be great if someone could put a bit more effort in than that. We're not liars (and your dog certainly isn't)
People have tested this stuff. Repeatedly.
That's why we know it doesn't work.
Nobody is calling you a liar, it's just what your experiencing is placebo.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:16 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
Again, not a very comprehensive answer is it?
I dunno why people can't just hold their hands up and say "we don't know."
All I said was I was glad Ryorry was feeling better and wasn't going to get involved in the inevitable posts to follow!
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:13 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
Once again, you're swerving parts and just dealing with what you can. How on earth does placebo work on a dog?!
Wasn't just my dog this vet (who was qualified & experienced as both regular & homeopathatic vet) had success with either, or he'd have been out of business! As well as having his own practice, he also did locum work for my dog's regular vet who took the "Stokie view" - the two were both senior citizens but used to have right barneys over homeopathy - same vehemence as 'leave v remain' or Keane v Jewell!
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
That's the thing, deniers like Stokers don't really deal with these anecdotes. They just say it doesn't work and that's that. Would be great if someone could put a bit more effort in than that. We're not liars (and your dog certainly isn't)
"deniers".
All going a bit Trump aren't you? I can see you've also now entered an echo-chamber where you swap anecdotes with like minded people and then dismiss the ones you don't like.
Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. If it's not replicable it's not science.
It's the placebo as a few posters have said, you refuse to accept the explanation. That's up to you but please stop making fallacious statements.
SB
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:28 - Sep 6 with 2480 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by Ryorry
They also miss the point that many things only become accepted scientific fact with the introduction of new scientific tests & technology that can show & analyse things for the first time years after they were first used and proved effective. E.g. all doctors said there was no explanation for my spinal problems - untill 20 years later MRI scanning came in, and showed/diagnosed the problem immediately.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]."
That is deeply flawed reasoning, you are comparing apples with oranges.
We know the make-up of the homeopathic remedies is the same as water down to molecular level - it's nothing like what you are equating it to.
Quoting Hamlet doesn't make it true.
SB
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:28 - Sep 6 with 2476 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:09 - Sep 6 by StokieBlue
I glossed over it because I don't know what you expect me to say?
You've given an unfalisifable position and thus nobody can argue against it.
I'll say this - what other type of medicine is their other than "science-based"? I can't think of anything - you are essentially saying "magic".
SB
I'm not saying magic at all. I'm just saying something we don't understand yet. There's plenty of things throughout history that we didn't understand at some point. In fact a lot of 'scientific' formulas are being discovered to be wrong, or at least have anomalies - there's one I read about the universe recently but can't think what it was now.
I don't understand why some people seemingly get angry about this sort of stuff. There's nothing wrong with just saying "we don't know why your ailment has eased."
I'm sure people said magnetic fields don't exist at one point (if they even had a concept of them). If people just gave up trying to understand the anomalies created by them we'd never have progressed.
It's always the same when this subject comes up. "It doesn't work, the end." That's not good enough I'm afraid.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:20 - Sep 6 by Ryorry
Wasn't just my dog this vet (who was qualified & experienced as both regular & homeopathatic vet) had success with either, or he'd have been out of business! As well as having his own practice, he also did locum work for my dog's regular vet who took the "Stokie view" - the two were both senior citizens but used to have right barneys over homeopathy - same vehemence as 'leave v remain' or Keane v Jewell!
"The Stokie view".
You mean the scientifically accepted view backed up by the NHS who withdrew all funding for homeopathy?
SB
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:32 - Sep 6 with 2467 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:28 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
I'm not saying magic at all. I'm just saying something we don't understand yet. There's plenty of things throughout history that we didn't understand at some point. In fact a lot of 'scientific' formulas are being discovered to be wrong, or at least have anomalies - there's one I read about the universe recently but can't think what it was now.
I don't understand why some people seemingly get angry about this sort of stuff. There's nothing wrong with just saying "we don't know why your ailment has eased."
I'm sure people said magnetic fields don't exist at one point (if they even had a concept of them). If people just gave up trying to understand the anomalies created by them we'd never have progressed.
It's always the same when this subject comes up. "It doesn't work, the end." That's not good enough I'm afraid.
I've lost total track of what you are saying now.
Are you saying that the homeopathic remedy worked, that it triggered a placebo effect or that it shouldn't but did because you didn't expect it to work?
SB
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:33 - Sep 6 with 2466 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by Ryorry
They also miss the point that many things only become accepted scientific fact with the introduction of new scientific tests & technology that can show & analyse things for the first time years after they were first used and proved effective. E.g. all doctors said there was no explanation for my spinal problems - untill 20 years later MRI scanning came in, and showed/diagnosed the problem immediately.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]."
Quite. And I don't know why they get so angry about it. It's almost as if they're scared that their worldview might be wrong/need to change. Things are unknown and then become known later. Nothing wrong with that.
Just seems daft to just shut it down and let that be the end of it. There's enough anecdotal evidence to dig a bit deeper/try new methods.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:33 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
Quite. And I don't know why they get so angry about it. It's almost as if they're scared that their worldview might be wrong/need to change. Things are unknown and then become known later. Nothing wrong with that.
Just seems daft to just shut it down and let that be the end of it. There's enough anecdotal evidence to dig a bit deeper/try new methods.
But it has been investigated, thoroughly, by scientists and experts in the field.
There is no evidence that it works.
You may choose to believe in it, despite the lack of evidence, but it seems very odd to attack Stokie for opting to believe the medical experts.
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:39 - Sep 6 with 2443 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:25 - Sep 6 by StokieBlue
"deniers".
All going a bit Trump aren't you? I can see you've also now entered an echo-chamber where you swap anecdotes with like minded people and then dismiss the ones you don't like.
Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. If it's not replicable it's not science.
It's the placebo as a few posters have said, you refuse to accept the explanation. That's up to you but please stop making fallacious statements.
SB
What fallacious statements have I made?
What anecdotes have I dismissed?
Where have I said anecdotal evidence is science?
You're putting so many words in my mouth I can hardly breathe!
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:33 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
Quite. And I don't know why they get so angry about it. It's almost as if they're scared that their worldview might be wrong/need to change. Things are unknown and then become known later. Nothing wrong with that.
Just seems daft to just shut it down and let that be the end of it. There's enough anecdotal evidence to dig a bit deeper/try new methods.
Look at it this way. At least by taking Stokie's approach we lessen the impact of all the snake oil salesmen out there who push dangerous things onto vulnerable people.
Sure, some things work and maybe we don't initially know why. Under those circumstances I think it's a fair assumption to say it's the placebo effect in action. We can go with that explanation while we investigate further.
But some things that are advocated are outright dangerous, waste time, and will cause more harm than good.
Got to look out for those sick folk and god damn it Spruce why are you getting involved in this!?
[Post edited 6 Sep 2019 15:41]
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:36 - Sep 6 by BrixtonBlue
If it is, then why does placebo work in some instances and not others?
Why does placebo only seem to happen when I've taken this particular remedy?
I'm not saying, BTW, that it ISN'T placebo, I'm just trying to understand how it works.
That is a bit silly Dolly, I don't think of any medicine that has an absolute success rate, the difference is when the treatment success rate exceeds the mathematic threshold of chance and probability.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:32 - Sep 6 by StokieBlue
I've lost total track of what you are saying now.
Are you saying that the homeopathic remedy worked, that it triggered a placebo effect or that it shouldn't but did because you didn't expect it to work?
SB
Not sure why you've lost track, it's pretty clear if you follow the thread and you're intelligent enough to do so. I think you're just obfuscating rather than deal with the points raised.
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by Ryorry
They also miss the point that many things only become accepted scientific fact with the introduction of new scientific tests & technology that can show & analyse things for the first time years after they were first used and proved effective. E.g. all doctors said there was no explanation for my spinal problems - untill 20 years later MRI scanning came in, and showed/diagnosed the problem immediately.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]."
Cant go quoting that without this coming into my head.
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Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:46 - Sep 6 with 2420 views
Dangerous mumbo jumbo or powerful placebo? on 15:40 - Sep 6 by SpruceMoose
Look at it this way. At least by taking Stokie's approach we lessen the impact of all the snake oil salesmen out there who push dangerous things onto vulnerable people.
Sure, some things work and maybe we don't initially know why. Under those circumstances I think it's a fair assumption to say it's the placebo effect in action. We can go with that explanation while we investigate further.
But some things that are advocated are outright dangerous, waste time, and will cause more harm than good.
Got to look out for those sick folk and god damn it Spruce why are you getting involved in this!?
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