| Brexit 10:41 - Nov 23 with 9590 views | blueislander |
“The less intelligent were more likely to back Brexit”” Headline from today’s Times. WHO would have thought it? |  | | |  |
| Brexit on 12:50 - Nov 23 with 1654 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit on 12:40 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Which arguments that should have been made by the remain campaign do you feel weren't made? And where in their campaign materials did they ridicule people? |
Looking back, I think the remain campaign maybe focused too much on the dangers of the leaving, rather than the positives of staying. Not quite what you were asking, but just an opinion, which probably applies to my own posting on here at the time too. |  |
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| Brexit on 12:58 - Nov 23 with 1612 views | JakeITFC |
| Brexit on 12:25 - Nov 23 by Bluedandy |
Is change really always an easier sell? In 1975 referendum, voters decided to stay in the Common Market, in 2011 Altervative Voting referendum voters retained the first past the post system and in 2014 Scottish voters opted to remain part of the Union.
Seems far too many Remainers just made a very pisspoor case for staying in the EU, often preferring to ridicule the intelligence of the Brexit voting working class.
Leading Remainers from the Blair years onwards were too arrogant, complacent and thick to see the growing threat which they had helped develop.
Now we must all pay the price because it was a catastrophic outcome. |
The first point is the one I was going to make, in fact I'm fairly sure one of the reasons that remain was a massive favourite in the betting is that generally these sort of referendums ended with the status quo coming out on top.
The Brexit vote was a genuine landmark moment in that regard I think. |  | | |
| Brexit on 12:59 - Nov 23 with 1605 views | goperryrevs |
| Brexit on 10:55 - Nov 23 by BigCommon |
I dont get it... If they were so stupid, then why couldn't they be persuaded to vote remain, by the vastly more intelligent remainers? |
Partly complacency - I don't believe for a second that Cameron believed that the Brexiteers had a chance of winning when he called the referendum. The Remain campaign was pathetic and barely scratched the surface of actually engaging with obvious issues like the NI border- they didn't think they needed to.
Partly narrative vs facts - Brexiteers had a stronger narrative, despite being based on lies.
But despite all that, those intelligent Remainers HAVE succeeded in persuading the general public that they were indeed right all along. Look at polls since the actual referendum. A majority of people think Brexit was a mistake. | | | |
| Brexit on 13:01 - Nov 23 with 1593 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
| Brexit on 12:47 - Nov 23 by itfc_bucks |
Except that's explicitly what the study has disproven.
University education is irrelevant, per this study. They looked at cognitive ability. |
Explicably proven? How did they determine they were "stupid"? What were they asked, and how. It's a bit like the Fish and the tree climbing. These studies can easily be loaded. Did they IQ test each responded? As it was a secret ballot, where x-million voted for and against, what size was the sample? How can it proved those taking part voted one way or another? On word? Well instantly that falls it all down. It's a bit like when they said post election "only old people voted for Brexit", there is no way of actually qualifying that, beyond polls, which are always loaded. Because these study's tend to pick and choose who they want to get the desired outcome to create the narrative they wish to continue, which is everyone who is against my view is stupid. It's a bit like opinion polls with loaded questions, taken in areas most closely to deliver the desired outcome and narratives of the pollsters. Both the left and right do it. |  | | |
| Brexit on 13:02 - Nov 23 with 1586 views | wkj |
| Brexit on 10:55 - Nov 23 by BigCommon |
I dont get it... If they were so stupid, then why couldn't they be persuaded to vote remain, by the vastly more intelligent remainers? |
Because big red busses look nice and would never lie |  |
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| Brexit on 13:07 - Nov 23 with 1545 views | Plums |
| Brexit on 12:59 - Nov 23 by goperryrevs |
Partly complacency - I don't believe for a second that Cameron believed that the Brexiteers had a chance of winning when he called the referendum. The Remain campaign was pathetic and barely scratched the surface of actually engaging with obvious issues like the NI border- they didn't think they needed to.
Partly narrative vs facts - Brexiteers had a stronger narrative, despite being based on lies.
But despite all that, those intelligent Remainers HAVE succeeded in persuading the general public that they were indeed right all along. Look at polls since the actual referendum. A majority of people think Brexit was a mistake. |
The governance of the referendum was also extremely poor. A decision of this scale and nature should never have been decided on a simple marginal vote.
Back to the OP.
My wife overheard three mums outside the school she worked at in 2016. The conversation went like this:
"Well that's it, we're out"
"Yes, good job too. I voted to leave"
"Oh did you? I didn't, I voted to stay in"
"Well you would, you're clever"
I haven't made that up. I can remember her coming home that day and telling me the story. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:16 - Nov 23 with 1502 views | hype313 |
| Brexit on 12:50 - Nov 23 by giant_stow |
Looking back, I think the remain campaign maybe focused too much on the dangers of the leaving, rather than the positives of staying. Not quite what you were asking, but just an opinion, which probably applies to my own posting on here at the time too. |
That was a key issue, the delivery was condescending, rather than promoting the virtues of membership.
People seemed irked by the tone, but also I think it's a bigger issue around people having had enough off being told what to do by mainstream politicians at the time and saw it as an opportunity to give them a bloody nose, despite the ramifications for their decisions. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:18 - Nov 23 with 1488 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit on 13:16 - Nov 23 by hype313 |
That was a key issue, the delivery was condescending, rather than promoting the virtues of membership.
People seemed irked by the tone, but also I think it's a bigger issue around people having had enough off being told what to do by mainstream politicians at the time and saw it as an opportunity to give them a bloody nose, despite the ramifications for their decisions. |
Totally agree about the bludy nose point. When asked why he voted leave. my mate Angry Tony just said that everything's sh1t and he wanted a change. He's still angry, still looking for change, so preparing himself to vote Labour this time. | |
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| Brexit on 13:19 - Nov 23 with 1486 views | townblue |
| Brexit on 11:42 - Nov 23 by Guthrum |
Which is why Chief Executives come into established (even successful) businesses and promptly trash them. Got to make their mark, even if change is not needed.
See also the (self described) madman just elected in Argentina. Change of any sort, even berserkly destructive, is better than trying to make the status quo work properly.
People are lazy and want wand-waving instant solutions to complex problems. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 11:43]
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I don't think it helped that Cameron made a big deal out of trying to get changes from the EU ahead of the referendum and wasn't able to come back with much. It made it seem that change from within the EU wasn't going to be possible. |  | | |
| Brexit on 13:24 - Nov 23 with 1444 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:01 - Nov 23 by ChampionsofInnsbruck |
Explicably proven? How did they determine they were "stupid"? What were they asked, and how. It's a bit like the Fish and the tree climbing. These studies can easily be loaded. Did they IQ test each responded? As it was a secret ballot, where x-million voted for and against, what size was the sample? How can it proved those taking part voted one way or another? On word? Well instantly that falls it all down. It's a bit like when they said post election "only old people voted for Brexit", there is no way of actually qualifying that, beyond polls, which are always loaded. Because these study's tend to pick and choose who they want to get the desired outcome to create the narrative they wish to continue, which is everyone who is against my view is stupid. It's a bit like opinion polls with loaded questions, taken in areas most closely to deliver the desired outcome and narratives of the pollsters. Both the left and right do it. |
I'm not sure you understand how research works, mate. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:26 - Nov 23 with 1411 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit on 12:50 - Nov 23 by giant_stow |
Looking back, I think the remain campaign maybe focused too much on the dangers of the leaving, rather than the positives of staying. Not quite what you were asking, but just an opinion, which probably applies to my own posting on here at the time too. |
Very much so. Although even then it would have been difficult to counter leave's emotion-based approach. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:27 - Nov 23 with 1407 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:16 - Nov 23 by hype313 |
That was a key issue, the delivery was condescending, rather than promoting the virtues of membership.
People seemed irked by the tone, but also I think it's a bigger issue around people having had enough off being told what to do by mainstream politicians at the time and saw it as an opportunity to give them a bloody nose, despite the ramifications for their decisions. |
Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is the definition of stupid. | |
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| Brexit on 13:42 - Nov 23 with 1366 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit on 13:27 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is the definition of stupid. |
Angry Tony just didn't see it like that, despite a pretty heated debate in the boozer one night. | |
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| Brexit on 13:45 - Nov 23 with 1345 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:42 - Nov 23 by giant_stow |
Angry Tony just didn't see it like that, despite a pretty heated debate in the boozer one night. |
This is why democracy doesn't really work. | |
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| Brexit on 13:46 - Nov 23 with 1343 views | DJR |
Maybe this is just trying to create an academic thesis out of something that was, as far as I was aware, pretty obvious, namely, that those in higher socio-economic groups were more inclined to vote Remain.
As it is, this from one of the report's authors makes assumptions that appear to me to call into question the objectivity of the report..
Lead author Dr Chris Dawson, from the University of Bath’s School of Management, said: “This study adds to existing academic evidence showing that low cognitive ability makes people more susceptible to misinformation and disinformation. People with lower cognitive ability and analytical thinking skills find it harder to detect and discount this type of information.
“We know that evidence has been put forward that information provided to the public in the months leading up to the referendum was contradictory, false and often fraudulent, especially regarding the pro-Leave campaign, and that this information proliferated on social media platforms.” [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:48]
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| Brexit on 13:49 - Nov 23 with 1332 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:46 - Nov 23 by DJR |
Maybe this is just trying to create an academic thesis out of something that was, as far as I was aware, pretty obvious, namely, that those in higher socio-economic groups were more inclined to vote Remain.
As it is, this from one of the report's authors makes assumptions that appear to me to call into question the objectivity of the report..
Lead author Dr Chris Dawson, from the University of Bath’s School of Management, said: “This study adds to existing academic evidence showing that low cognitive ability makes people more susceptible to misinformation and disinformation. People with lower cognitive ability and analytical thinking skills find it harder to detect and discount this type of information.
“We know that evidence has been put forward that information provided to the public in the months leading up to the referendum was contradictory, false and often fraudulent, especially regarding the pro-Leave campaign, and that this information proliferated on social media platforms.” [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:48]
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What assumptions? There is ample evidence for the two main claims being made there. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:50]
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| Brexit on 13:52 - Nov 23 with 1317 views | DJR |
| Brexit on 13:49 - Nov 23 by Herbivore |
What assumptions? There is ample evidence for the two main claims being made there. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:50]
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I'm sure those on the Leave side would not agree with you. And what about the tales of economic disaster which I believe were overplayed at the expense of trying to make a positive case for the EU? [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:54]
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| Brexit on 13:53 - Nov 23 with 1314 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:52 - Nov 23 by DJR |
I'm sure those on the Leave side would not agree with you. And what about the tales of economic disaster which I believe were overplayed at the expense of trying to make a positive case for the EU? [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:54]
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They can disagree all they want. There is ample evidence to support both of their main claims.
Edit: Action was taken taken to mitigate some of the worst economic impacts: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/04/bank-of-england-cuts-uk-interes
That said, it's still been a disaster economically. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 14:00]
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| Brexit on 13:58 - Nov 23 with 1276 views | Rimsy |
This was a big reason why Leave won the vote. Constantly telling people they're too thick to understand the arguments, gets their back up. And it continues. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:59]
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| Brexit on 13:59 - Nov 23 with 1266 views | Sikamikanico |
| Brexit on 13:07 - Nov 23 by Plums |
The governance of the referendum was also extremely poor. A decision of this scale and nature should never have been decided on a simple marginal vote.
Back to the OP.
My wife overheard three mums outside the school she worked at in 2016. The conversation went like this:
"Well that's it, we're out"
"Yes, good job too. I voted to leave"
"Oh did you? I didn't, I voted to stay in"
"Well you would, you're clever"
I haven't made that up. I can remember her coming home that day and telling me the story. |
Some of my favorites pre and post referendum:
"If we don't vote to leave the EU I'm emigrating to Spain"
"Tomatoes will be 10p per pound when we leave"
"Of course I voted to leave.Need to keep Britain for the British." Said in front of he French boyfriend. | | | |
| Brexit on 14:02 - Nov 23 with 1258 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 13:58 - Nov 23 by Rimsy |
This was a big reason why Leave won the vote. Constantly telling people they're too thick to understand the arguments, gets their back up. And it continues. [Post edited 23 Nov 2023 13:59]
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So let me get this straight, you're saying that Brexit voters decided to vote for Brexit because they believed people were calling them thick? Isn't that exactly the sort of thing a stupid person would do, voting on the basis of feeling upset rather than on considering the relative merits of the different options? Seems you're the one insulting the intelligence of Brexit voters, mate. | |
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| Brexit on 14:04 - Nov 23 with 1247 views | NBVJohn |
| Brexit on 10:44 - Nov 23 by geg1992 |
I think we all knew that already. |
So did Johnson and Farage…. | | | |
| Brexit on 14:28 - Nov 23 with 1318 views | GlasgowBlue |
I was always told that Michael Foot and Weggie Benn were great intellectuals? Oh well. You live and learn.
Certainly explains Corbyn. |  |
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| Brexit on 14:37 - Nov 23 with 1289 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 14:28 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
I was always told that Michael Foot and Weggie Benn were great intellectuals? Oh well. You live and learn.
Certainly explains Corbyn. |
Unless there was some very serious electoral fraud taking place, neither of those voted for Brexit in 2016. | |
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| Brexit on 14:45 - Nov 23 with 1270 views | Leaky |
Well they can't be that thck they knew how to put a cross in the leave box in greater numbers than intelligent did putting a cross in the remain box. |  | | |
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