| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 52997 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:44 - Jul 25 with 3932 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
I don't think it's about whether Trump is himself a Fascist.
It is far more that the current political and media climate is enabling the rise of Fascism.
Niemoller was a great man. We far too often do not learn the lessons of history. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:52 - Jul 25 with 3919 views | DanTheMan |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:39 - Jul 25 by GeoffSentence |
"I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism"
Well, there's a conundrum here, does that fact that you don't believe we are sleepwalking into fascism mean that in actual fact, you are sleepwalking into fascism?
I suppose only time will tell. |
That's a fair point. It's more the point in the article I posted, the parties and far-right that are on the rise aren't really fascist. They do share similar traits but miss out quite a bit that would make them fascist.
That doesn't mean they are not bad. What is happening is really, really bad. But we should label them what they are, which is populists. That should be the dirty word. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:01 - Jul 25 with 3897 views | lowhouseblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:10 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
Whilst hatred of Jews was obviously a huge part of Nazism, it's worth remembering that Jews have been persecuted in Europe for literally thousands of years. It isn't something new and isn't directly related to Fascism. |
hatred of jews has always co-existed with a promotion of conspiracy theories -from the protocols of the elders of zion onwards. there's a natural allegiance between conspiracy theories and both the far left and the far right. they both need to define an enemy, for that enemy to be working in secret and for their all powerful state to need to use any powers to confront that enemy. i therefore find the current fashion for conspiracy theories at both political extremes - including the tropes promoted by some on this site - as by far the most worrying thing at the moment. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:01 - Jul 25 with 3901 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:52 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
That's a fair point. It's more the point in the article I posted, the parties and far-right that are on the rise aren't really fascist. They do share similar traits but miss out quite a bit that would make them fascist.
That doesn't mean they are not bad. What is happening is really, really bad. But we should label them what they are, which is populists. That should be the dirty word. |
I am not sure the label is or isn't helpful.
Did the Nazi party pre-1930s in Germany fit all the criteria set when they first got elected?
That is more the point. We appear to heading very much in the same direction, whether it is this party in power on its way or another party that does or does not yet exist. The elements are there. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:04 - Jul 25 with 3898 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:37 - Jul 25 by Mullet |
I think that's because it's the same complaint. Any sympathy for Palestine or criticism of Israel politically is met with a wailing wall (I will not apologise for that RE related pun)of "antisemitism!" from the same dogwhistlers and sh1tstirrers.
JC and his cronies do nothing to help themselves, but they are not given a platform to spread this antisemitism in the way say the Islamophobia of the right is, it comes from sometimes quite questionable exposés and insinuation in the mainstream press compared to the more obvious social media material.
It's a very depressing problem as it makes a sideshow out of something that is not really our biggest problem in this country. It has also rewritten the history of antisemitism for many ignorant of it in the first place. Which I guess is why so many of us find all of it frustrating.
The hardening more "right wing" position amongst a growing number of wealthy middle class and above Jewish people in America seems to be fuelling a lot of it over there too, and has been on the rise far longer than Trump has been around.
It's funny given Trump's tacit love-in with the KKK I guess that he is literally playing both sides and getting away with it. That's a rough model that have emboldened all the scum in this country with the privilege and designs on power to make these shifts.
I don't think Boris is a fascist in the Moseley mould and Trump his Hitler, but he's certainly a massive backwards step when this country is already flailing about on the world stage. |
TBH im struggling a bit with Islamaphobia in an historical context. Seems to me to be a new new term that gets mixed up with attempts at an honest debate on Islam and bandied around as it so often without thought, stymies discussion.
Antisemitism however has an entirely different historical context. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:13]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:06 - Jul 25 with 3886 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:12 - Jul 25 by sparks |
It seems like the sort of hyperbole which will immediately resonate with supporters of Johnson and trump as reason to buy into the idea that the loony left see anyone who disagrees as a fascist and are trying to shutdown discussion.
Its silly and counterproductive. |
Not if one reads closely what m14 is saying. The OP was about the mechanism of a growth of some form of populism that seeks to overturn order, close down free debate and disregards common law/values . He's gone out of the way to say that the end goal is unlikely the same and label 'fascism' isn't relevant, it's just that there are parallels in some elements of behaviour and how it's happening.
If Trumptons can't understand that, that's their fault [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:16]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:08 - Jul 25 with 3878 views | DanTheMan |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:01 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I am not sure the label is or isn't helpful.
Did the Nazi party pre-1930s in Germany fit all the criteria set when they first got elected?
That is more the point. We appear to heading very much in the same direction, whether it is this party in power on its way or another party that does or does not yet exist. The elements are there. |
"Did the Nazi party pre-1930s in Germany fit all the criteria set when they first got elected?"
For the most part, yes.
I would agree that the elements are there, but I don't think it'll be the same form as what the Nazis were. Fascism as it was is basically dead outside of a few fringe groups. Obviously there are also still some neo-nazis knocking about.
For me what we are seeing is essentially something new but potentially as dangerous. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:10 - Jul 25 with 3865 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:04 - Jul 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
TBH im struggling a bit with Islamaphobia in an historical context. Seems to me to be a new new term that gets mixed up with attempts at an honest debate on Islam and bandied around as it so often without thought, stymies discussion.
Antisemitism however has an entirely different historical context. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:13]
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I guess both go back over 1000 years and one was seen as in internal threat and another an external threat when appropriate. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:15 - Jul 25 with 3842 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
"You can be a total xenophobic racist male chauvinist bastard and still not be a fascist."
Ha, like it. That's perfect for Boris and Trump. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:16 - Jul 25 with 3838 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:06 - Jul 25 by Swansea_Blue |
Not if one reads closely what m14 is saying. The OP was about the mechanism of a growth of some form of populism that seeks to overturn order, close down free debate and disregards common law/values . He's gone out of the way to say that the end goal is unlikely the same and label 'fascism' isn't relevant, it's just that there are parallels in some elements of behaviour and how it's happening.
If Trumptons can't understand that, that's their fault [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:16]
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It doesnt MATTER who's fault it is- the effect is the same.
And the labelling of populism as fascism is silly, undermines valid criticism of that populism and makes it for the people in question to dismiss.
There are a number of articles which nail the concept I am getting at better than I can in a quick TWTD post-
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/there-will-be-no-debate/395
https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/01/22/why-the-modern-left-loves-shutting-down |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:21 - Jul 25 with 3825 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:04 - Jul 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
TBH im struggling a bit with Islamaphobia in an historical context. Seems to me to be a new new term that gets mixed up with attempts at an honest debate on Islam and bandied around as it so often without thought, stymies discussion.
Antisemitism however has an entirely different historical context. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:13]
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So it is OK to criticise elements of Islam but not the Israeli government?
There is Islamophobia and Islamophobia just as there is anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism.
There should be honest debate around what leads to radicalisation and the need to prevent Sharia law etc, just as there should be about the wrongs of the Israeli government. However, to pretend there is not Islamophobia in the Conservative party nor anti-Semitism in the Labour party is plain demonstrably wrong. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:24 - Jul 25 with 3815 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:21 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So it is OK to criticise elements of Islam but not the Israeli government?
There is Islamophobia and Islamophobia just as there is anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism.
There should be honest debate around what leads to radicalisation and the need to prevent Sharia law etc, just as there should be about the wrongs of the Israeli government. However, to pretend there is not Islamophobia in the Conservative party nor anti-Semitism in the Labour party is plain demonstrably wrong. |
The biggest group at risk of and actually being radicalised are white men in this country. I guess the fact it's so low in % terms means it often gets lost. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:25 - Jul 25 with 3809 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:21 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So it is OK to criticise elements of Islam but not the Israeli government?
There is Islamophobia and Islamophobia just as there is anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism.
There should be honest debate around what leads to radicalisation and the need to prevent Sharia law etc, just as there should be about the wrongs of the Israeli government. However, to pretend there is not Islamophobia in the Conservative party nor anti-Semitism in the Labour party is plain demonstrably wrong. |
Indeed. This is part of the problem I was alluding to above. If people who criticise islam, or Israel are shutdown by immediate automatic accusations of bigotry, we are stuffed.
If we say that Boris is a fascist- we are doing much the same thing as when we tell someone who criticises Israel, they are anti semitic. Its about shutting down criticism or debate- and leads to the conclusion (on the part of the Boris fan) that the "loony left" simply want to shame and shut down anyone who disagrees with them by equating them to Hitler... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:25 - Jul 25 with 3807 views | BloomBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:06 - Jul 25 by m14_blue |
No.
Although for the avoidance of doubt, I absolutely deplore the anti Semitism in the Labour Party and would never vote for Labour under Corbyn. But then again, I’ve never voted for Labour in my life so.....
However, if you’re saying that the biggest threat to our values and democracy is Jeremy Corbyn then you’re either being deliberately obtuse or have been completely and utterly brainwashed.
Our actual Prime Minister is openly racist and islamophobic for heaven’s sake. |
But you used fascism and nazis in your comment, the nazis wanted to exterminate the Jewish race, ok after they had completed that who knows what the next race on their list was.
But the fact is extermination of the Jews was their goal and the only party I see under investigation by the EHRC for antisemitism is the Labour party.
There have been many forms of fascism Mussolini's Italy another example.
Aligning fascism purely against the nazis as the defacto example will by default mean fascism equals anti Jew.
The reason why many ordinary Germans allowed it was they felt oppressed and the nazis were attacking the jews as the rich people who were controlling everything and adding to that oppression and they sold it as taking from the rich jews and share the wealth amongst all Germans while giving power back to the ordinary Germans.
Trouble is once he had the power and military nothing the ordinary German could do to stop it.
Fascism can come from either the left or right. |  | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:26 - Jul 25 with 3800 views | lowhouseblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:21 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So it is OK to criticise elements of Islam but not the Israeli government?
There is Islamophobia and Islamophobia just as there is anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism.
There should be honest debate around what leads to radicalisation and the need to prevent Sharia law etc, just as there should be about the wrongs of the Israeli government. However, to pretend there is not Islamophobia in the Conservative party nor anti-Semitism in the Labour party is plain demonstrably wrong. |
it's absolutely fine to criticise the Israeli government. anyone who has told you otherwise is a liar. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:28 - Jul 25 with 3792 views | Swansea_Blue |
I didn't see the purpose of the OP's post to label populism as fascism, for example:
"My point was meant to be that the approach and effect is the same, not that the political ideology is necessarily the same."
m14's OP is doing the exact opposite of that first article; it's not closing down debate, it's opening up the debate. It's reflecting on the fact that OTHER people are labeling this as 'sleepwalking into fascism' and then thinking what the parallels are, from the perspective of the "modus operandi". And as a result there have been some excellent posts on why it's wrong to label this populist surge as fascism.
I agree with you entirely that closing down debate by slinging around poorly thought through lazy labels and insults is counterproductive. But imo that's not what's happening here. If some people can't see that, I'll maintain that's their problem. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:31]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:28 - Jul 25 with 3787 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:26 - Jul 25 by lowhouseblue |
it's absolutely fine to criticise the Israeli government. anyone who has told you otherwise is a liar. |
But the real world working of that, makes that lie very true to some people. It's almost a standard response in some quarters isn't it? | |
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| Where's the attibution buh? (n/t) on 10:30 - Jul 25 with 3772 views | Dyland |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:31 - Jul 25 with 3766 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:25 - Jul 25 by BloomBlue |
But you used fascism and nazis in your comment, the nazis wanted to exterminate the Jewish race, ok after they had completed that who knows what the next race on their list was.
But the fact is extermination of the Jews was their goal and the only party I see under investigation by the EHRC for antisemitism is the Labour party.
There have been many forms of fascism Mussolini's Italy another example.
Aligning fascism purely against the nazis as the defacto example will by default mean fascism equals anti Jew.
The reason why many ordinary Germans allowed it was they felt oppressed and the nazis were attacking the jews as the rich people who were controlling everything and adding to that oppression and they sold it as taking from the rich jews and share the wealth amongst all Germans while giving power back to the ordinary Germans.
Trouble is once he had the power and military nothing the ordinary German could do to stop it.
Fascism can come from either the left or right. |
Actually fascism is, by definition, a far right ideology. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:33 - Jul 25 with 3758 views | lowhouseblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:28 - Jul 25 by Mullet |
But the real world working of that, makes that lie very true to some people. It's almost a standard response in some quarters isn't it? |
i don't think it is actually. no one has been caught up in the current anti-semitism crisis JUST because they said that the israeli government is corrupt, brutal, wrong etc.
criticising the israeli government doesn't make someone anti-semitic. the trouble is that some people think that because they criticise the israeli government they can't be anti-semitic whatever else they say. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:34 - Jul 25 with 3751 views | flimflam |
I stopped reading after 'present a balanced, or left leaning, view' |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:42 - Jul 25 with 3735 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:28 - Jul 25 by Swansea_Blue |
I didn't see the purpose of the OP's post to label populism as fascism, for example:
"My point was meant to be that the approach and effect is the same, not that the political ideology is necessarily the same."
m14's OP is doing the exact opposite of that first article; it's not closing down debate, it's opening up the debate. It's reflecting on the fact that OTHER people are labeling this as 'sleepwalking into fascism' and then thinking what the parallels are, from the perspective of the "modus operandi". And as a result there have been some excellent posts on why it's wrong to label this populist surge as fascism.
I agree with you entirely that closing down debate by slinging around poorly thought through lazy labels and insults is counterproductive. But imo that's not what's happening here. If some people can't see that, I'll maintain that's their problem. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 10:31]
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The moment people see Trump and Boris mentioned in the same breath as fascism, all the issues I am referring to come into effect. Nuance isnt a thing anymore.
The very concept of sleepwalking into fascism is a pretty clear statement onto which people will latch. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:46 - Jul 25 with 3724 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:21 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So it is OK to criticise elements of Islam but not the Israeli government?
There is Islamophobia and Islamophobia just as there is anti-Semitism and anti-Semitism.
There should be honest debate around what leads to radicalisation and the need to prevent Sharia law etc, just as there should be about the wrongs of the Israeli government. However, to pretend there is not Islamophobia in the Conservative party nor anti-Semitism in the Labour party is plain demonstrably wrong. |
Yep that’s fine. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:49 - Jul 25 with 3719 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:34 - Jul 25 by flimflam |
I stopped reading after 'present a balanced, or left leaning, view' |
Why? | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:50 - Jul 25 with 3715 views | 26_Paz |
Utter, utter rubbish. You guys know what fascism is, right?
I haven't seen anyone calling for lefties to be put in camps yet ... |  |
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