| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 52987 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:23 - Jul 27 with 4694 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:18 - Jul 27 by ballycastle |
Sorry, it was a retro attempt at humour to lighten the mood of your overly dramatic notion that the left is being outlawed. |
The comment that this thread relates to was made on a thread about a book by Trump Jnr that is called 'Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence us'. Perhaps you find it hard to see how people with influence on the right producing such material is a genuine threat to left-wing views, personally I don't. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:45 - Jul 27 with 4668 views | No9 |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 04:42 - Jul 27 by m14_blue |
Well that’s a very, very weird response that seems to have little or no relevance to the OP. |
It is pretty obvious that poster proves the point you made in the original post | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:06 - Jul 29 with 4591 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:45 - Jul 27 by Herbivore |
I don't feel like we're a million miles away from that. |
The mere fact that you are allowed to write this utter, utter rubbish on here with no fear of being beaten up or arrested says that we are a long way away from that. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:13 - Jul 29 with 4585 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:06 - Jul 29 by 26_Paz |
The mere fact that you are allowed to write this utter, utter rubbish on here with no fear of being beaten up or arrested says that we are a long way away from that. |
Stop trying to silence me with your bullying. You're just proving my point. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:22 - Jul 29 with 4570 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:13 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
Stop trying to silence me with your bullying. You're just proving my point. |
I'm not bullying you, I'm making a point.
In this country you are free to talk whatever politics you like, you can accuse the government of subscribing to an abhorrent ideology with absolutely no fear of recriminations. If we lived in a fascist society you would not be able to do that. The mere fact that you can disproves the very point you were attempting to make. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:34 - Jul 29 with 4555 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:22 - Jul 29 by 26_Paz |
I'm not bullying you, I'm making a point.
In this country you are free to talk whatever politics you like, you can accuse the government of subscribing to an abhorrent ideology with absolutely no fear of recriminations. If we lived in a fascist society you would not be able to do that. The mere fact that you can disproves the very point you were attempting to make. |
You were attempting to silence me in your labelling of my position, which you then followed with thinly veiled threats of violence. That kind of rhetoric abounds currently. The point is not that we are living in a fascist state, which is what you are falsely arguing against, but that we are sleepwalking our way towards it. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:56 - Jul 29 with 4535 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:34 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
You were attempting to silence me in your labelling of my position, which you then followed with thinly veiled threats of violence. That kind of rhetoric abounds currently. The point is not that we are living in a fascist state, which is what you are falsely arguing against, but that we are sleepwalking our way towards it. |
Apologies if you interpreted that as a threat of violence against yourself. I can assure you it was certainly nothing of the sort. The point I was making is that in fascist societies the state simply beats up or arrests dissenters. I think you might have known that really though. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:19 - Jul 29 with 4518 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:56 - Jul 29 by 26_Paz |
Apologies if you interpreted that as a threat of violence against yourself. I can assure you it was certainly nothing of the sort. The point I was making is that in fascist societies the state simply beats up or arrests dissenters. I think you might have known that really though. |
Let's see how things pan out. 'Enemy of the people' rhetoric is alive and well in the US and is on the rise here for dissenters. It's not the huge leap you think it is from normalising that rhetoric to taking steps to silence dissent. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:26 - Jul 29 with 4511 views | Darth_Koont |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:19 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
Let's see how things pan out. 'Enemy of the people' rhetoric is alive and well in the US and is on the rise here for dissenters. It's not the huge leap you think it is from normalising that rhetoric to taking steps to silence dissent. |
Indeed. Added to which there have been attempts to bypass parliament and the legal system (while chucking in treason allegations too).
The "will of the people" (a marginal result in an iffy referendum) has been used to justify all sorts of nonsense. Not least to suppress the fact that the will of the people has actually changed. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:42 - Jul 29 with 4495 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:19 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
Let's see how things pan out. 'Enemy of the people' rhetoric is alive and well in the US and is on the rise here for dissenters. It's not the huge leap you think it is from normalising that rhetoric to taking steps to silence dissent. |
Not just alive and well in America.
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:49 - Jul 29 with 4491 views | Darth_Koont |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:42 - Jul 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Not just alive and well in America.
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That's internal party politics. Pretty major difference to talking about actual treason.
But you know that. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:36 - Jul 29 with 4313 views | warkthisway |
If ever the phrase “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing “ -it applies to this absolute rubbish .
Get some history books out and read them mate before spouting waffle. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:41 - Jul 29 with 4306 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:36 - Jul 29 by warkthisway |
If ever the phrase “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing “ -it applies to this absolute rubbish .
Get some history books out and read them mate before spouting waffle. |
You disagree then? Fair enough.
If it helps, I have a history degree, specialising in the rise of Nazism, and have read extensively on the subject ever since.
Cheers for the input though mate. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:50 - Jul 29 with 4296 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:49 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
That's internal party politics. Pretty major difference to talking about actual treason.
But you know that. |
No. It a left leaning non Labour affiliated publication using the language of fascism whilst prominently featuring a Jew under the headline.
Left or right. That language is used in this country, which was Herbie's point.
You can't continue to call it out on one side whilst excusing the other. [Post edited 29 Jul 2019 13:50]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:00 - Jul 29 with 4282 views | manchego |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:22 - Jul 29 by 26_Paz |
I'm not bullying you, I'm making a point.
In this country you are free to talk whatever politics you like, you can accuse the government of subscribing to an abhorrent ideology with absolutely no fear of recriminations. If we lived in a fascist society you would not be able to do that. The mere fact that you can disproves the very point you were attempting to make. |
This is for children so you should be able to follow it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z3bp82p/revision/1
You don't get Democracy on Monday and Facism on Tuesday.
Hitler joined the Nazi's in 1919 - 20 years before WWII
It happens because it's slow and you don't notice it happening. |  | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:03 - Jul 29 with 4273 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:00 - Jul 29 by manchego |
This is for children so you should be able to follow it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z3bp82p/revision/1
You don't get Democracy on Monday and Facism on Tuesday.
Hitler joined the Nazi's in 1919 - 20 years before WWII
It happens because it's slow and you don't notice it happening. |
So much more succinctly put than my OP!
Thank you. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:08 - Jul 29 with 4265 views | Darth_Koont |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:50 - Jul 29 by GlasgowBlue |
No. It a left leaning non Labour affiliated publication using the language of fascism whilst prominently featuring a Jew under the headline.
Left or right. That language is used in this country, which was Herbie's point.
You can't continue to call it out on one side whilst excusing the other. [Post edited 29 Jul 2019 13:50]
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You really are unbelievable.
Why on earth is Margaret Hodge's Jewishness a factor more than the fact that she's the most vocal and unbalanced critic of Corbyn? Behind her is a range of other critics who have been against Corbyn from day one and for a whole host of reasons.
You're eager to push some sort of equivalence here that simply isn't relevant to what is being discussed. Only out of respect to Phil I'll skip the term I'd use to describe this type of incessant smearing and disingenuous politicking. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:12 - Jul 29 with 4253 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:00 - Jul 29 by manchego |
This is for children so you should be able to follow it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z3bp82p/revision/1
You don't get Democracy on Monday and Facism on Tuesday.
Hitler joined the Nazi's in 1919 - 20 years before WWII
It happens because it's slow and you don't notice it happening. |
Excellent post, sir. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:24 - Jul 29 with 4239 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:00 - Jul 29 by manchego |
This is for children so you should be able to follow it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z3bp82p/revision/1
You don't get Democracy on Monday and Facism on Tuesday.
Hitler joined the Nazi's in 1919 - 20 years before WWII
It happens because it's slow and you don't notice it happening. |
It's fascinating stuff. There are some scary parallels (around rejection of international agreements focused on peace and togetherness, projecting blame onto others for their own policy failures, demonisation of non-belongers, etc.).
This £100m propaganda announcement is a step in the same sort of directions too - nice bit of state mind control.
Obviously the 2 situations are not directly comparable, but there should be alarm bells ringing about the direction we're going in imo. It does come back to the OP's claim that some of the techniques are similar. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:40 - Jul 29 with 4198 views | jimmyvet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:34 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
Jeez. That is really desperate stuff from you. |
DK your hypocrisy knows no bounds. You know exactly what that left rag is getting at so stop apologising again and again for racists. 99% on here call out real racism on the right and left only you call out the right but defend the left and it’s vile. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:42 - Jul 29 with 4194 views | Darth_Koont |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:40 - Jul 29 by jimmyvet |
DK your hypocrisy knows no bounds. You know exactly what that left rag is getting at so stop apologising again and again for racists. 99% on here call out real racism on the right and left only you call out the right but defend the left and it’s vile. |
That's your opinion Jimmy. I'll never change it. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:04 - Jul 29 with 4152 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:38 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
Out of interest, what is the readership of The Word? |
How in earth is that relevant? The language of fascism is wrong whether it’s written for one person of a million. As it happens the Word is a publication endorsed by the leader of the opposition.
“The Word. Our writers include Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and George Galloway”.
Why can’t you condemn racism when it comes from the left? You are very vocal when it comes from the right but take any Opportunity to trivialise, dismiss or excuse it from the left.
I’ve never once seen you start a thread on left wing racism. I’ve seen you start plenty from the right. [Post edited 29 Jul 2019 15:20]
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