| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 52977 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:50 - Jul 25 with 4251 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:25 - Jul 25 by BloomBlue |
But you used fascism and nazis in your comment, the nazis wanted to exterminate the Jewish race, ok after they had completed that who knows what the next race on their list was.
But the fact is extermination of the Jews was their goal and the only party I see under investigation by the EHRC for antisemitism is the Labour party.
There have been many forms of fascism Mussolini's Italy another example.
Aligning fascism purely against the nazis as the defacto example will by default mean fascism equals anti Jew.
The reason why many ordinary Germans allowed it was they felt oppressed and the nazis were attacking the jews as the rich people who were controlling everything and adding to that oppression and they sold it as taking from the rich jews and share the wealth amongst all Germans while giving power back to the ordinary Germans.
Trouble is once he had the power and military nothing the ordinary German could do to stop it.
Fascism can come from either the left or right. |
You obviously haven’t even remotely understood the context or content of the post, I suspect that’s deliberate but maybe not. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:51 - Jul 25 with 4245 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:49 - Jul 25 by m14_blue |
Why? |
Because reading and comprehension aren't the same thing. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:51 - Jul 25 with 4250 views | DanTheMan |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:50 - Jul 25 by 26_Paz |
Utter, utter rubbish. You guys know what fascism is, right?
I haven't seen anyone calling for lefties to be put in camps yet ... |
Putting people into camps isn't part of fascism. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:52 - Jul 25 with 4241 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:51 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
Putting people into camps isn't part of fascism. |
Indeed. And even taking that into account him qualifying his post with "yet" isn't exactly reassuring. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:57 - Jul 25 with 4235 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:51 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
Putting people into camps isn't part of fascism. |
It felt like it when I was forced into it
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:02 - Jul 25 with 4227 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:52 - Jul 25 by Herbivore |
Indeed. And even taking that into account him qualifying his post with "yet" isn't exactly reassuring. |
And this is the whole point of the OP.
Whilst it might be said tongue-in-cheek by some, it is the path that very easily follows as it gets normalised.
I doubt living in pre-war Nazi Germany was very much different to modern Britain or USA. I am not an expert so may be wrong but the little I do know about concerns me greatly. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:15 - Jul 25 with 4212 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:02 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
And this is the whole point of the OP.
Whilst it might be said tongue-in-cheek by some, it is the path that very easily follows as it gets normalised.
I doubt living in pre-war Nazi Germany was very much different to modern Britain or USA. I am not an expert so may be wrong but the little I do know about concerns me greatly. |
I'm not sure how anyone that watched the Trump rally last week can be blasé about how our politics is going. The refusal to unequivocally condemn him by prominent politicians in the UK is equally troubling. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:19 - Jul 25 with 4207 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:02 - Jul 25 by Nthsuffolkblue |
And this is the whole point of the OP.
Whilst it might be said tongue-in-cheek by some, it is the path that very easily follows as it gets normalised.
I doubt living in pre-war Nazi Germany was very much different to modern Britain or USA. I am not an expert so may be wrong but the little I do know about concerns me greatly. |
It was massively, massively different. Jews were openly persecuted from the early 1930s. This does not happen in Britain or the USA (except, perhaps, within the Labour party). |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:26 - Jul 25 with 4197 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:19 - Jul 25 by 26_Paz |
It was massively, massively different. Jews were openly persecuted from the early 1930s. This does not happen in Britain or the USA (except, perhaps, within the Labour party). |
Persecution of Jewish people is not a central tenet of fascism. Perhaps the reason you your like minded posters on here are unconcerned about fascism is because you don't really understand what fascism is. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:39 - Jul 25 with 4172 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 11:26 - Jul 25 by Herbivore |
Persecution of Jewish people is not a central tenet of fascism. Perhaps the reason you your like minded posters on here are unconcerned about fascism is because you don't really understand what fascism is. |
If you think Britain at the moment is like 1930's Germany there is something seriously wrong with you. Either that or you are going down the well worn path of the leftie of just comparing everyone they don't like with Hitler in a desperate attempt to discredit them. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:45 - Jul 25 with 4161 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:39 - Jul 25 by 26_Paz |
If you think Britain at the moment is like 1930's Germany there is something seriously wrong with you. Either that or you are going down the well worn path of the leftie of just comparing everyone they don't like with Hitler in a desperate attempt to discredit them. |
You are the one who keeps brining up Nazi Germany. I think you're using that well worn right wing tactic of creating a straw man to attack to distract from what is actually being said or actually happening. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:50 - Jul 25 with 4154 views | baxterbasics |
Fascism:
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
and
"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control"
Can't see how we are sleepwalking into any of this, honestly. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:54 - Jul 25 with 4143 views | ballycastle |
'You can see the evidence on this very site'
It surprises me but it really shouldn't that there are those who believe the views championed on TWTD are that of a majority in British life, also that TWTD is a broad cross section of life in the Britain.
The TWTD consensus has been on the wrong side of every election and public opinion in the approaching twenty years I have been on here. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:59 - Jul 25 with 4129 views | lowhouseblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:50 - Jul 25 by baxterbasics |
Fascism:
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
and
"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control"
Can't see how we are sleepwalking into any of this, honestly. |
that's the boring old fashioned definition. in the modern age it just means 'stuff i disagree with'. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:59 - Jul 25 with 4130 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:54 - Jul 25 by ballycastle |
'You can see the evidence on this very site'
It surprises me but it really shouldn't that there are those who believe the views championed on TWTD are that of a majority in British life, also that TWTD is a broad cross section of life in the Britain.
The TWTD consensus has been on the wrong side of every election and public opinion in the approaching twenty years I have been on here. |
I’m sorry, I really don’t see how that quote relates to the point you go on to make at all?
TWTD is more left and centre leaning than the populace as a whole, I agree with you. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:01 - Jul 25 with 4125 views | footers |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:50 - Jul 25 by baxterbasics |
Fascism:
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
and
"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control"
Can't see how we are sleepwalking into any of this, honestly. |
You won't notice it as it'll be sponsored by Coca Cola. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:09 - Jul 25 with 4105 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:50 - Jul 25 by baxterbasics |
Fascism:
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"
and
"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control"
Can't see how we are sleepwalking into any of this, honestly. |
You missed the Trump rally last week? You missed Boris refusing to rule out proroguing parliament? You've not noticed the rhetoric on both sides of the Atlantic that anyone not getting behind Trump/Brexit is an enemy of the country? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:10 - Jul 25 with 4107 views | jeera |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:01 - Jul 25 by footers |
You won't notice it as it'll be sponsored by Coca Cola. |
Fat or skinny? |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:13 - Jul 25 with 4099 views | J2BLUE |
Two points. I don't necessarily disagree but two points i'd like to raise:
1) 'the left' the new bogeyman. - I'm not sure this is fair. You're looking at this from one side. What about the growing trend to lump anyone with centre-right views in with the far right? On here you get attacked even if you admit to being a Tory voter. Personally I think the nation is so divided that very few people are willing to listen to the views of others and instead think they must be attacked. Both sides on here, the right wing Brexiteers and the left wing liberals both get backed up by their cliques where any other opinion than theirs is completely dismissed. If you dare show any balance you get attacked. The picture a former poster put up which basically said your opinion is only valid if it's on the extremes is a good example of what I mean.
2) It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. - What evidence do you have that there is a liberal majority? Liberals certainly make the most noise and social media has created a culture where you conform or you face the mob trying to destroy you but what evidence is there that there is a liberal majority?
I think you've written that post from your own perspective which is fair enough but you need to at least consider the other side and if the left are using the exact same tactics.I'd also like your definition of liberal as i've long believed that people are much more socially conservative in private than they are in public out of fear of being attacked for their beliefs. We've always had the shy Tory. Polls suggested Clinton and remain would win easily. People didn't even want to admit their true voting intentions such is the fear of being 'found out'.
Really interested in your view on this as you're a decent poster who is usually fair. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:07 - Jul 25 with 4061 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:13 - Jul 25 by J2BLUE |
Two points. I don't necessarily disagree but two points i'd like to raise:
1) 'the left' the new bogeyman. - I'm not sure this is fair. You're looking at this from one side. What about the growing trend to lump anyone with centre-right views in with the far right? On here you get attacked even if you admit to being a Tory voter. Personally I think the nation is so divided that very few people are willing to listen to the views of others and instead think they must be attacked. Both sides on here, the right wing Brexiteers and the left wing liberals both get backed up by their cliques where any other opinion than theirs is completely dismissed. If you dare show any balance you get attacked. The picture a former poster put up which basically said your opinion is only valid if it's on the extremes is a good example of what I mean.
2) It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. - What evidence do you have that there is a liberal majority? Liberals certainly make the most noise and social media has created a culture where you conform or you face the mob trying to destroy you but what evidence is there that there is a liberal majority?
I think you've written that post from your own perspective which is fair enough but you need to at least consider the other side and if the left are using the exact same tactics.I'd also like your definition of liberal as i've long believed that people are much more socially conservative in private than they are in public out of fear of being attacked for their beliefs. We've always had the shy Tory. Polls suggested Clinton and remain would win easily. People didn't even want to admit their true voting intentions such is the fear of being 'found out'.
Really interested in your view on this as you're a decent poster who is usually fair. |
It is, of course, written from my perspective but I certainly wouldn't class that perspective as being of the left, I regard myself as pretty much bang in the middle, very similar to your position I guess.
1) There are, as you say, some equally intolerant people on the left but, in a world with President Trump, PM Johnson and Brexit, I regard the rise of populist nationalism to be by far the greatest threat to our way of life and my daughter's future.
2) None whatsoever, and in fact I corrected myself on this later in the thread. I totally disagree that liberals make the most noise though, my social media is now a cesspit of Brexit/Trump anti BBC propaganda.
The OP may well look ridiculous in a few years time, and I probably am being alarmist, but I sense we could be on the verge of something very ugly indeed. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:08 - Jul 25 with 4062 views | Darth_Koont |
Good post and good discussion too overall.
I think your qualification of modern "fascism" is fine. Nowadays, it's a lot about nation and self, with society itself squeezed out of the way. And there's no way with the past few decades of promoting individual liberty and choice that we're going to go to a 1930s Germany-style where a more uniform, idealized family and society were the defining values.
Freedom as nations and/or individuals is the new vision of choice. And equality or social justice are seen as shackles that keep the white, heterosexual and vocally male majority and their countries from achieving that freedom.
But here's where the "silent liberal majority" has dropped the ball and not just stood by and said nothing, a la Niemoller, but actually put the boot in. The demonization of the left (the formal advocates of equality) that has come to a head now that Corbyn has got in has been fueled by a centre that isn't actually as liberal as it would like to be. The centre is "selfish" too and doesn't really want their individual liberty curtailed by taxes or even much of a shift in focus in our government spending. Even before Corbyn came in, the silent majority has watched divisions increase throughout the country (classes, regions and industries) and done nothing as long as they themselves see their opportunities increasing.
"Socialism" was acceptable to them under Blair because everything was still mostly about them as individuals. Now it seems when others have come in who promote genuine equality (not equality of opportunity which might as well be called trickle-down equality) there's a knee-jerk reaction. And particularly because deep down they know they've silently watched these divisions grow and it hurts their own view of themselves. It reminds them that they may have a social conscience but they really haven't been socially conscious.
Of course, I'm not for one minute going to say that Corbyn's view or at least the view of some pure, structured equality is the answer. It's not. We also need liberty and there's nothing inherently wrong with that as a driver in our personal lives and for the economy. But we have lost the balance between the two - and no centre party bar the SNP has the opportunity, the conviction or the balls to actually fight for the equality we need to focus more on. Or the measures needed to achieve it such as raising taxes and forcibly redistributing opportunities from the South and South East where the silent majority has its centre of gravity.
The silent majority seems to have become a stooge and useful tool of the libertarian nutters even while it may condemn them and call out their more extreme and populist policies. The problem is that they also resist the pressing need for equality with almost as much fervour. And that's entirely serving the main goal of the nutters they condemn on the right who are trying to make liberty itself dogma. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:10 - Jul 25 with 4057 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:08 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
Good post and good discussion too overall.
I think your qualification of modern "fascism" is fine. Nowadays, it's a lot about nation and self, with society itself squeezed out of the way. And there's no way with the past few decades of promoting individual liberty and choice that we're going to go to a 1930s Germany-style where a more uniform, idealized family and society were the defining values.
Freedom as nations and/or individuals is the new vision of choice. And equality or social justice are seen as shackles that keep the white, heterosexual and vocally male majority and their countries from achieving that freedom.
But here's where the "silent liberal majority" has dropped the ball and not just stood by and said nothing, a la Niemoller, but actually put the boot in. The demonization of the left (the formal advocates of equality) that has come to a head now that Corbyn has got in has been fueled by a centre that isn't actually as liberal as it would like to be. The centre is "selfish" too and doesn't really want their individual liberty curtailed by taxes or even much of a shift in focus in our government spending. Even before Corbyn came in, the silent majority has watched divisions increase throughout the country (classes, regions and industries) and done nothing as long as they themselves see their opportunities increasing.
"Socialism" was acceptable to them under Blair because everything was still mostly about them as individuals. Now it seems when others have come in who promote genuine equality (not equality of opportunity which might as well be called trickle-down equality) there's a knee-jerk reaction. And particularly because deep down they know they've silently watched these divisions grow and it hurts their own view of themselves. It reminds them that they may have a social conscience but they really haven't been socially conscious.
Of course, I'm not for one minute going to say that Corbyn's view or at least the view of some pure, structured equality is the answer. It's not. We also need liberty and there's nothing inherently wrong with that as a driver in our personal lives and for the economy. But we have lost the balance between the two - and no centre party bar the SNP has the opportunity, the conviction or the balls to actually fight for the equality we need to focus more on. Or the measures needed to achieve it such as raising taxes and forcibly redistributing opportunities from the South and South East where the silent majority has its centre of gravity.
The silent majority seems to have become a stooge and useful tool of the libertarian nutters even while it may condemn them and call out their more extreme and populist policies. The problem is that they also resist the pressing need for equality with almost as much fervour. And that's entirely serving the main goal of the nutters they condemn on the right who are trying to make liberty itself dogma. |
That’s a really interesting post.
Your 4th paragraph has given me food for thought on a personal level too. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:12 - Jul 25 with 4056 views | footers |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 13:10 - Jul 25 by jeera |
Fat or skinny? |
Full aspartame experience bruv. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:33 - Jul 25 with 4029 views | lowhouseblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:08 - Jul 25 by Darth_Koont |
Good post and good discussion too overall.
I think your qualification of modern "fascism" is fine. Nowadays, it's a lot about nation and self, with society itself squeezed out of the way. And there's no way with the past few decades of promoting individual liberty and choice that we're going to go to a 1930s Germany-style where a more uniform, idealized family and society were the defining values.
Freedom as nations and/or individuals is the new vision of choice. And equality or social justice are seen as shackles that keep the white, heterosexual and vocally male majority and their countries from achieving that freedom.
But here's where the "silent liberal majority" has dropped the ball and not just stood by and said nothing, a la Niemoller, but actually put the boot in. The demonization of the left (the formal advocates of equality) that has come to a head now that Corbyn has got in has been fueled by a centre that isn't actually as liberal as it would like to be. The centre is "selfish" too and doesn't really want their individual liberty curtailed by taxes or even much of a shift in focus in our government spending. Even before Corbyn came in, the silent majority has watched divisions increase throughout the country (classes, regions and industries) and done nothing as long as they themselves see their opportunities increasing.
"Socialism" was acceptable to them under Blair because everything was still mostly about them as individuals. Now it seems when others have come in who promote genuine equality (not equality of opportunity which might as well be called trickle-down equality) there's a knee-jerk reaction. And particularly because deep down they know they've silently watched these divisions grow and it hurts their own view of themselves. It reminds them that they may have a social conscience but they really haven't been socially conscious.
Of course, I'm not for one minute going to say that Corbyn's view or at least the view of some pure, structured equality is the answer. It's not. We also need liberty and there's nothing inherently wrong with that as a driver in our personal lives and for the economy. But we have lost the balance between the two - and no centre party bar the SNP has the opportunity, the conviction or the balls to actually fight for the equality we need to focus more on. Or the measures needed to achieve it such as raising taxes and forcibly redistributing opportunities from the South and South East where the silent majority has its centre of gravity.
The silent majority seems to have become a stooge and useful tool of the libertarian nutters even while it may condemn them and call out their more extreme and populist policies. The problem is that they also resist the pressing need for equality with almost as much fervour. And that's entirely serving the main goal of the nutters they condemn on the right who are trying to make liberty itself dogma. |
i think you are wrong on a great deal of that, but, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and there is a 'silent majority' or 'selfish centre', as you define it, which values individual liberty. what then is your strategy for getting progressive change, including redistribution? you have defined the problem, but i can't see what your answer is - given that the 'selfish liberty valuing centre' has electoral muscle. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:39 - Jul 25 with 4015 views | Darth_Koont |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 14:33 - Jul 25 by lowhouseblue |
i think you are wrong on a great deal of that, but, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and there is a 'silent majority' or 'selfish centre', as you define it, which values individual liberty. what then is your strategy for getting progressive change, including redistribution? you have defined the problem, but i can't see what your answer is - given that the 'selfish liberty valuing centre' has electoral muscle. |
We have to have a starting point where equality and the measures needed to achieve it are not immediately classed as Communism by the right or unsustainable and counter-productive by the centre.
In short, we need an adult and honest political discussion. So God knows where that's going to come from given the way our media looks. And where even the balance of the BBC or Guardian has been superseded by their obsession with optics and political manoeuvrings. | |
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