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Blair was not the most charismatic in my long lifetime (let alone ever). Churchill and Harold Macmillan were far more so - and I have only once voted Tory.
each to their own
I've watched speeches with all 3 and Blair is the one that captured me most - not 2018 Blair, but PM Blair 1997-07.
I will hold my hands up though and say I'm probably biased to my own era but judging someone's charisma is subjective anyway
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit.
Why is this a problem? When the status quo was that we were staying in the EU we had to put up with Brexiters agitating and even a political party like UKIP representing on that one issue. Now the the status quo is that we're leaving why should that just be accepted by those who disagree and think we should stay in the EU?
Why is this a problem? When the status quo was that we were staying in the EU we had to put up with Brexiters agitating and even a political party like UKIP representing on that one issue. Now the the status quo is that we're leaving why should that just be accepted by those who disagree and think we should stay in the EU?
John Major by GlasgowBlue28 Feb 2018 18:15 They would have continued to campaign for another referendum in 10 years time. Just as the SNP continue to campaign for another indy ref. No problem with that.
Completely different than trying to overturn a democratic vote.
I'll add to that when Remain won in 1976 the leave group didn't try to overturn that democratic result. It took another 7 years before Labour put Brexit in their manifesto.
John Major by GlasgowBlue28 Feb 2018 18:15 They would have continued to campaign for another referendum in 10 years time. Just as the SNP continue to campaign for another indy ref. No problem with that.
Completely different than trying to overturn a democratic vote.
I'll add to that when Remain won in 1976 the leave group didn't try to overturn that democratic result. It took another 7 years before Labour put Brexit in their manifesto.
Your original response is very speculative. You think a 52/48 result the other way would've meant a push for another referendum in 10 years? I think you're being very naive if you genuinely believe that. They'd have been agitating straight away. Also, who is calling for the result to be overturned altogether? There's some calls for a second referendum when the final deal is on the table but even those are muted.
The subjective view of 99% of people alive at the time was undoubtedly that Disraeli was more charismatic than Gladstone. But yes, subjective.
don't be silly, like 99% of people even know who are Disreali or Gladstone let alone think they were the most charismatic PM's of all time, but if you have that poll and can show me 99% of people alive think that then I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Just to save this from turning into something pointless I will say "Blair was the most charismatic PM of modern Britain 1980-today"
Why is this a problem? When the status quo was that we were staying in the EU we had to put up with Brexiters agitating and even a political party like UKIP representing on that one issue. Now the the status quo is that we're leaving why should that just be accepted by those who disagree and think we should stay in the EU?
I voted remain but its not 100% to say that leaving in the status quo - a majority of MP's don't want Brexit. Even taking the leave vote into account, remaining in the EU is overwhelmingly the preferred option of the establishment
John Major was my local MP and a decent bloke but his son James was/is a tool of the highest order. Sadly he got to marry Emma Noble, which I would consider an achievement based on purely superficial terms, like her being as fit as.
The only thing that all these people are going to achieve IS a hard Brexit! All the while that Labour etc undermine the negotiations that EU will keep on playing with us. The only way we can get a deal is for everybody to work together and show a combined front,after all beneath all the retoric it is a good deal everyone wants. Still I wont hold my breath there is polical capital to made from this still never mind the good of the country!
There is no 'good deal'... there isn't even a compromise acceptable deal.
Brexit in it's current guide is overall a negative thing for at least 15-20 years. Perhaps after that period some benefits will be seen.
Short term damage, cost and wasted governmental and institutional effort and focus are even now completely under estimated.
Do you expect intelligent people to sit there and say nothing when the truth on this ridiculous Gove, Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al cluster f@ck is allowed to continue.
There is merit in a de-coupling from the European super-project, but we should have done it gradually and in a way that would have kept our European cousins happy and connected.
NI is the true real stumbling block, wait till the trade negotiations start.
He was a feeble reactionary who only looks good because the current crop(on both sides of the House) are so utterly, utterly piss-poor.
See also: George W Bush in comparison to Donald Trump.
[Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:14]
Quite something isn't it, when you almost look back on his premiership and think - "twtd"!
The lightbulb moment of my understanding re just how the UK has come to be in its current sorry mess was when I realised that both Cameron & May are actually less intelligent than myself ...
John Major was my local MP and a decent bloke but his son James was/is a tool of the highest order. Sadly he got to marry Emma Noble, which I would consider an achievement based on purely superficial terms, like her being as fit as.
Not too clued about the offspring but Major was a very good PM
Maybe some have tangled eyes but he was quite the man.
Hey ho -
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Not too clued about the offspring but Major was a very good PM
Maybe some have tangled eyes but he was quite the man.
Hey ho -
I thought he was a very weak PM. He won the 1992 General Election against the odds because Labour had Kinnock in charge. He signed us up for the Maastricht treaty without a referendum on it (it would have been rejected) and was a disaster.
His failings led to 10 years of Blair who did untold damage to this country and lands abroad.
Major and Blair can take a huge slice of the credit for us voting to leave the EU. Their behaviour when in charge out things in the post that were likely to see us vote out when given the opportunity.
You have to ask yourself this...why are Major and Blair so determined to keep us in the EU?
Quite something isn't it, when you almost look back on his premiership and think - "twtd"!
The lightbulb moment of my understanding re just how the UK has come to be in its current sorry mess was when I realised that both Cameron & May are actually less intelligent than myself ...
I thought he was a very weak PM. He won the 1992 General Election against the odds because Labour had Kinnock in charge. He signed us up for the Maastricht treaty without a referendum on it (it would have been rejected) and was a disaster.
His failings led to 10 years of Blair who did untold damage to this country and lands abroad.
Major and Blair can take a huge slice of the credit for us voting to leave the EU. Their behaviour when in charge out things in the post that were likely to see us vote out when given the opportunity.
You have to ask yourself this...why are Major and Blair so determined to keep us in the EU?
Imagine him though, huffing and puffing on top of Edwina.
Shudder.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Q: What would happen if there were another referendum and it were close?
Major says that, if it were won by one vote, the matter would be settled, as far as he is concerned. “We’ve got to draw a line under [this],” he says.
But only if it's a remain vote eh? Classic keep voting until you get it right stuff. Interesting that the first referendum was too close to be a clear result but a second one could be decided by one vote. Of course he'll soon take that back if leave won by a single vote.
So it was ok for Farage to say if it was 52-48 in favour of Remain they would carry on fighting for more re-votes?
But as it was 52-48 in favour of Leave, we're going for a ridiculous hard Brexit.
When mild-mannered men like John Major are coming out with strong words, then you know it's a bad situation.
I thought he was a very weak PM. He won the 1992 General Election against the odds because Labour had Kinnock in charge. He signed us up for the Maastricht treaty without a referendum on it (it would have been rejected) and was a disaster.
His failings led to 10 years of Blair who did untold damage to this country and lands abroad.
Major and Blair can take a huge slice of the credit for us voting to leave the EU. Their behaviour when in charge out things in the post that were likely to see us vote out when given the opportunity.
You have to ask yourself this...why are Major and Blair so determined to keep us in the EU?
In Major's case it could even be because he thinks it is for the benefit of the whole country, not just for himself.
Major also did the vast majority of the work to bring relative peace in N Ireland, but his successor took all the credit.
So it was ok for Farage to say if it was 52-48 in favour of Remain they would carry on fighting for more re-votes?
But as it was 52-48 in favour of Leave, we're going for a ridiculous hard Brexit.
When mild-mannered men like John Major are coming out with strong words, then you know it's a bad situation.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 11:52]
The transformation of a 52-48 vote into a mandate for a hard Brexit is scandalous.
The underlying reasons for the 52% may in part be a genuine view that Britain will do better on the outside. But let's be real here. "Reasons" have also been manufactured by a seriously dodgy Leave campaign, decades of anti-EU and anti-immigration rhetoric to win votes and/or sell papers. Not to mention there is a clear protest against the major parties from disaffected and disenfranchised voters and regions that has nothing to do with Europe but more with domestic policy similarly over decades.
The decision to embrace a hard Brexit is proof that the government (and Labour to an extent) have refused to address these underlying reasons and their role in them. In fact, rather than taking responsibility, the party politicians are still hiding behind these "reasons" and even exploiting them for the sake of their party strength and unity, and their own careers.
And our press is complicit, either by actively cheerleading or being far too passive and happy for the content and traffic. People need to be seeing this situation as wholly undemocratic but too many of us are religious believers in our system (even when all the evidence points to us having one of the worst, least representative and most centralized political systems in the Western world).
So it was ok for Farage to say if it was 52-48 in favour of Remain they would carry on fighting for more re-votes?
But as it was 52-48 in favour of Leave, we're going for a ridiculous hard Brexit.
When mild-mannered men like John Major are coming out with strong words, then you know it's a bad situation.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 11:52]
I'm sure if it was 52:48 the other way all the Brexiteers would have been fine with us abandoning sterling and joining the Euro and far closer integration with Europe
In Major's case it could even be because he thinks it is for the benefit of the whole country, not just for himself.
Major also did the vast majority of the work to bring relative peace in N Ireland, but his successor took all the credit.
This.
Major is an English gentleman who loves nothing better than watching cricket and having a gin and tonic. The fact that Blair stole his achievements in NI (and Thatchers if you know your history) will not grate at him.
When he beat Kinnock it was a "feck me" moment, the nation went to bed convinced they would awaken to a Labour government but no. Kinnock went all glitzy USA while Major stood on a soap box.
Ever the underestimated man.
Alright!
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
I'm sure if it was 52:48 the other way all the Brexiteers would have been fine with us abandoning sterling and joining the Euro and far closer integration with Europe
Spot-on, Joe. I reckon the majority would prefer us to stay, but in a different, far less federal Europe. Others have tried to negotiate that & failed; hence, we ended up with Brexit. The ghastly, unelected EU politicians are the real problem.
Spot-on, Joe. I reckon the majority would prefer us to stay, but in a different, far less federal Europe. Others have tried to negotiate that & failed; hence, we ended up with Brexit. The ghastly, unelected EU politicians are the real problem.
We've hugely exaggerated the federal Europe angle by the way. Most countries in Europe see the EU as a buffer and strength in numbers against being controlled by global political and market forces that don't represent our essential values and aspirations that we as Europeans largely share.
Leaving was always about losing control. Would we leave NATO and any security cooperations to be "more in control of our security"? No, of course we wouldn't.
Spot-on, Joe. I reckon the majority would prefer us to stay, but in a different, far less federal Europe. Others have tried to negotiate that & failed; hence, we ended up with Brexit. The ghastly, unelected EU politicians are the real problem.
Spot on. I was thinking this the other day. We tried and tried to negotiate.
The Euro gravy train is completely at fault - along with Cameron and arguably the worst campaign in history for one of our biggest decisions in history.
People moan about the £350m NHS bus but what they said was accurate - it never said anywhere that £350m would be spent on the NHS. There is no difference with Debenhams 50% sale posters with "Up to" in small print.
It was all campaigning, something that REMAIN never did very well.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Spot on. I was thinking this the other day. We tried and tried to negotiate.
The Euro gravy train is completely at fault - along with Cameron and arguably the worst campaign in history for one of our biggest decisions in history.
People moan about the £350m NHS bus but what they said was accurate - it never said anywhere that £350m would be spent on the NHS. There is no difference with Debenhams 50% sale posters with "Up to" in small print.
It was all campaigning, something that REMAIN never did very well.
"We tried and tried to negotiate."
We really didn't. We've consistently had one foot in and one foot out using vetos and opt-outs — largely for domestic party political reasons (appeasing rebel backbenchers and ideologues in the press).
Then when Cameron gave his demands for "special status" the EU tried to play ball:
But it still wasn't enough. Such is the atmosphere, rhetoric and downright misinformation surrounding the EU in this country.
Most EU countries see it as a way of safeguading national autonomy and interests in the face of overwhelming global pressures, not to mention getting the benefits of a huge trading bloc. We're like the 15-year-old who wants to get their own flat because they're being "oppressed" by their pretty easy-going parents. Like these parents, the EU seems more switched on and more concerned about our welfare and prospects than we ourselves seem to be.
Spot on. I was thinking this the other day. We tried and tried to negotiate.
The Euro gravy train is completely at fault - along with Cameron and arguably the worst campaign in history for one of our biggest decisions in history.
People moan about the £350m NHS bus but what they said was accurate - it never said anywhere that £350m would be spent on the NHS. There is no difference with Debenhams 50% sale posters with "Up to" in small print.
It was all campaigning, something that REMAIN never did very well.
Spot on. The leave campaign was positive. We can get money back from the EU and spend it on services. We can open up trade deals with the rest of thre world.
The remain campaign was negative. Recession, Job Losses. World War 3 etc.
Regarding renegotiation: had Germany backed Cameron to get a break on freedom of movement for a few years then the old working class areas in the North would have voted remain rather than leave which would have made the difference.
Blair is trying the tactic of the EU offering us better terms to have another referendum. It worked in Denmark when they rejected Maastricht. They were given four opt-outs designed that overcame the concerns that had caused the initial No vote. The Irish were given several concessions each time the voted no until the EU got the result they wanted.
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