| John Major on 17:20 - Feb 28 with 2675 views | J2BLUE |
But that was before leave won so it doesn't count because people deserve another chance to get it right. |  |
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| John Major on 17:37 - Feb 28 with 2653 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 17:20 - Feb 28 by J2BLUE |
But that was before leave won so it doesn't count because people deserve another chance to get it right. |
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit. |  |
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| John Major on 17:44 - Feb 28 with 2649 views | giant_stow |
| John Major on 17:37 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit. |
How dare they! Brutes |  |
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| John Major on 18:00 - Feb 28 with 2624 views | HennikerBlu |
| John Major on 15:37 - Feb 28 by jaseitfc |
Blair in terms of charisma is the best we've ever had and an election winning machine- the Labour victory in 2005 was quite something given it was 2 years removed from the invasion of Iraq (though the Tories were pretty weak then and although it was public view that the Iraq war was wrong - the full extent of it wasn't known by 2005)
Domestically you could argue his 10 years as PM made him the best - initially dramatically improved the nhs, cut unemployment (though the figures may have been manipulated a bit) , gave the Welsh and Scots devolution, possibly saved the monarchy, and done wonders I'm in northern Ireland
Up until Iraq his foreign policy was something to be proud of too - especially the liberation of Kosovo
But then you take Iraq into account , and then the economic problems that followed his tebure , the mistep of allowing migrants from 10 EU countrues at once instead of having a staggered approach (if your pro immigration you are in favour of controlled migration as you recognise mass migration can turn the population against migration, making life harder for migrants socially , and economically ) and it taints him |
Apart from the UN inspectors found no WMD and reported this to be the case.
Two cabinet ministers resigned Robin Cook and Clare Short, plus significant anti-war protests.
I watched Colin Powell's speech at the UN giving all the reasons for WMD and to go to war unconvincingly. It was also inferred at the time that there were links to Al-Qaeda later denied even by GW Bush.
Unfortunately the clamour for war was too great, but the evidence was there at the time, it's wrong to suggest otherwise.
The brief section on opposition to the Iraq War is worth a read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#Opposition_to_invasion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:01]
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| John Major on 18:03 - Feb 28 with 2616 views | Pinewoodblue |
| John Major on 17:37 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit. |
Two unholy alliances. May & DUP on one side Blair & Major in the other just doesn't bode well.
We have not learnt anything this week that wasn't known in December . Cannot see how you can have NI in the customs union, and subject to European court decisions, nor how you can make a hard border. When you drive across the border it is easy to miss the signs and you suddenly notice the road markings are different.
Truth is there is little evidence that the EU have any intention of meaningful negotiation. Don't want a hard Brexit but will support it if the only other option is to accept whatever is offered. Should have been so different, the EU have driven a wedge that will, if they are not careful, lead to a break up of the EU. If they had shown commonsense and acknowledged the need for change there wouldn't be any Brexit. |  |
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| John Major on 18:08 - Feb 28 with 2610 views | manchego |
| John Major on 17:37 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit. |
Because if the vote had gone the other way, UKIP and the Tory sceptic hard core would have given up and admitted a total and final defeat. Wouldn't they. |  | | |
| John Major on 18:15 - Feb 28 with 2600 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 18:08 - Feb 28 by manchego |
Because if the vote had gone the other way, UKIP and the Tory sceptic hard core would have given up and admitted a total and final defeat. Wouldn't they. |
They would have continued to campaign for another referendum in 10 years time. Just as the SNP continue to campaign for another indy ref. No problem with that.
Completely different than trying to overturn a democratic vote. | |
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| John Major on 18:15 - Feb 28 with 2603 views | BlueBadger |
| John Major on 17:37 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
The day after the referendum the remain camp mobilised to frustrate and stop Brexit. |
You won, we lost, get over it. |  |
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| John Major on 18:16 - Feb 28 with 2594 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 18:15 - Feb 28 by BlueBadger |
You won, we lost, get over it. |
You think we are leaving the EU in any meaningful way? | |
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| John Major on 18:16 - Feb 28 with 2598 views | giant_stow |
| John Major on 18:15 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
They would have continued to campaign for another referendum in 10 years time. Just as the SNP continue to campaign for another indy ref. No problem with that.
Completely different than trying to overturn a democratic vote. |
poppybollox, you tinker. | |
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| John Major on 18:17 - Feb 28 with 2593 views | BlueBadger |
| John Major on 18:16 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
You think we are leaving the EU in any meaningful way? |
Hopefully not, the whole thing is an unmitigated clusterf*ck. | |
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| John Major on 18:17 - Feb 28 with 2591 views | giant_stow |
| John Major on 18:16 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
You think we are leaving the EU in any meaningful way? |
I sense the beginning of the 'vassal state' blame game. | |
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| John Major on 18:23 - Feb 28 with 2579 views | jaseitfc |
| John Major on 18:00 - Feb 28 by HennikerBlu |
Apart from the UN inspectors found no WMD and reported this to be the case.
Two cabinet ministers resigned Robin Cook and Clare Short, plus significant anti-war protests.
I watched Colin Powell's speech at the UN giving all the reasons for WMD and to go to war unconvincingly. It was also inferred at the time that there were links to Al-Qaeda later denied even by GW Bush.
Unfortunately the clamour for war was too great, but the evidence was there at the time, it's wrong to suggest otherwise.
The brief section on opposition to the Iraq War is worth a read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#Opposition_to_invasion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:01]
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You are right, but we knew more about Iraq as years went on - for sure it was public by 2005 that they lied to go in, but it wasn't widespread common knowledge like it is now - hence him leading Labour to a convincing victory in 2005.
People were still on board the Blair train in 2005, and his popularity didn't really sink until he left office in 2007 and beyond as more and more detail about Iraq came out. I think it was around 2010 and the start of Chilcott where it was pretty much common-thought that Blair was wrong, and that was the beginnings of the becoming the villain as he is looked upon today.
Certainly he did not carry the villain tag like he does today from 2005-2010. | | | |
| John Major on 18:24 - Feb 28 with 2572 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 18:17 - Feb 28 by giant_stow |
I sense the beginning of the 'vassal state' blame game. |
As Labour's Brexit spokesman said last year:
"If we are in the customs union the EU’s 27 members would set the common tariffs and Britain would have no say in how they were set. We would be unable to enter into any separate bilateral free trade agreement. We would be obliged to align our regulatory regime with the EU in all areas covered by the union, without any say in the rules we had to adopt. And we would be bound by the case law of the ECJ, even though we would have no power to bring a case to the court".
We'd may as well stay in the bloody thing than end up with a dogs dinner like that. And that my friend is the whole point. | |
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| John Major on 18:25 - Feb 28 with 2572 views | Lord_Lucan |
| John Major on 15:37 - Feb 28 by jaseitfc |
Blair in terms of charisma is the best we've ever had and an election winning machine- the Labour victory in 2005 was quite something given it was 2 years removed from the invasion of Iraq (though the Tories were pretty weak then and although it was public view that the Iraq war was wrong - the full extent of it wasn't known by 2005)
Domestically you could argue his 10 years as PM made him the best - initially dramatically improved the nhs, cut unemployment (though the figures may have been manipulated a bit) , gave the Welsh and Scots devolution, possibly saved the monarchy, and done wonders I'm in northern Ireland
Up until Iraq his foreign policy was something to be proud of too - especially the liberation of Kosovo
But then you take Iraq into account , and then the economic problems that followed his tebure , the mistep of allowing migrants from 10 EU countrues at once instead of having a staggered approach (if your pro immigration you are in favour of controlled migration as you recognise mass migration can turn the population against migration, making life harder for migrants socially , and economically ) and it taints him |
"best we've ever had and an election winning machine"
I presume you are young and are talking about very modern history only. |  |
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| John Major on 18:26 - Feb 28 with 2571 views | manchego |
| John Major on 18:15 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
They would have continued to campaign for another referendum in 10 years time. Just as the SNP continue to campaign for another indy ref. No problem with that.
Completely different than trying to overturn a democratic vote. |
Who is overturning the vote ? I'd like to know so I can vote for them. | | | |
| John Major on 18:30 - Feb 28 with 2567 views | bluejacko |
The only thing that all these people are going to achieve IS a hard Brexit!
All the while that Labour etc undermine the negotiations that EU will keep on playing with us.
The only way we can get a deal is for everybody to work together and show a combined front,after all beneath all the retoric it is a good deal everyone wants.
Still I wont hold my breath there is polical capital to made from this still never mind the good of the country! | | | |
| John Major on 18:30 - Feb 28 with 2564 views | giant_stow |
| John Major on 18:24 - Feb 28 by GlasgowBlue |
As Labour's Brexit spokesman said last year:
"If we are in the customs union the EU’s 27 members would set the common tariffs and Britain would have no say in how they were set. We would be unable to enter into any separate bilateral free trade agreement. We would be obliged to align our regulatory regime with the EU in all areas covered by the union, without any say in the rules we had to adopt. And we would be bound by the case law of the ECJ, even though we would have no power to bring a case to the court".
We'd may as well stay in the bloody thing than end up with a dogs dinner like that. And that my friend is the whole point. |
I do actually see what you saying, weirdly. | |
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| John Major on 18:33 - Feb 28 with 2559 views | jaseitfc |
| John Major on 18:25 - Feb 28 by Lord_Lucan |
"best we've ever had and an election winning machine"
I presume you are young and are talking about very modern history only. |
in terms of charisma he's the best we've ever had I said,
and "election winning machine" - 1997, 2001, 2005 - not a bad record is it?
Sure, Thatcher went one better but I'd argue Blair was more charismatic than her.
I'm 30, so yes I cant really remember Thatcher or Major, but I have studied British politics and historically besides Thatcher, Churchill, Atlee - who would say is charismatic? or comes close to Blair? | | | |
| John Major on 18:43 - Feb 28 with 2546 views | flimflam |
| John Major on 16:05 - Feb 28 by Swansea_Blue |
Indeed. He was solely responsible for the American subprime crisis and global recession. The b@stard. I can't stand the bloke, but let's not over-react. Immigration you may have more of a point, but again the reality and people's responses are not aligned (greatest resentment in areas with least immigration, in general). |
When Brown deregulated the banks and allowed them to leverage up to their eyeballs on a fiat currency backed by thin air then yes they did contribute heavily to the recession.
Stoking the housing market with debt that could not be repayed in the event of a crash could only go one way and blaming the banks is justified but they were allowed to do it on Blair / Browns watch.
Out of curiosity how many other countries suffered as much as the UK and USA in the 2008 recession? [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:44]
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| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| John Major on 18:52 - Feb 28 with 2539 views | manchego |
| John Major on 18:43 - Feb 28 by flimflam |
When Brown deregulated the banks and allowed them to leverage up to their eyeballs on a fiat currency backed by thin air then yes they did contribute heavily to the recession.
Stoking the housing market with debt that could not be repayed in the event of a crash could only go one way and blaming the banks is justified but they were allowed to do it on Blair / Browns watch.
Out of curiosity how many other countries suffered as much as the UK and USA in the 2008 recession? [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:44]
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Ukraine, Argentina, Jamaica, Ireland, Russia, Mexico, Hungary, Romania, the Baltic states, Spain, Greece, Portugal, France. [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:53]
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| John Major on 19:01 - Feb 28 with 2519 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 16:14 - Feb 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Hmmmm, funny how people take the credit for themselves when their success is on the back of a booming global economy.
...however, when things go sour, its nothing to do with them and all down to the global economy.
.....no middle ground. |
We bought into Thatcherism/Reaganomics and lost our balance based on the natural upswing in the economy after the global recession of the 70s.
We've been struggling to address this since as now nobody can really understand the value of a stronger, more just society compared to the opportunity for individuals to make money.
In that context, Blair was a curse because like many in New Labour, he completely fell in love with free-market enterprise when he should have been making the case for a more balanced, long-term approach. |  |
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| John Major on 19:06 - Feb 28 with 2512 views | flimflam |
| John Major on 18:52 - Feb 28 by manchego |
Ukraine, Argentina, Jamaica, Ireland, Russia, Mexico, Hungary, Romania, the Baltic states, Spain, Greece, Portugal, France. [Post edited 28 Feb 2018 18:53]
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Without bothering to lookup any of those up Jamaica were already in recession prior to the 2008 crash. | |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| John Major on 19:11 - Feb 28 with 2509 views | solemio |
| John Major on 15:37 - Feb 28 by jaseitfc |
Blair in terms of charisma is the best we've ever had and an election winning machine- the Labour victory in 2005 was quite something given it was 2 years removed from the invasion of Iraq (though the Tories were pretty weak then and although it was public view that the Iraq war was wrong - the full extent of it wasn't known by 2005)
Domestically you could argue his 10 years as PM made him the best - initially dramatically improved the nhs, cut unemployment (though the figures may have been manipulated a bit) , gave the Welsh and Scots devolution, possibly saved the monarchy, and done wonders I'm in northern Ireland
Up until Iraq his foreign policy was something to be proud of too - especially the liberation of Kosovo
But then you take Iraq into account , and then the economic problems that followed his tebure , the mistep of allowing migrants from 10 EU countrues at once instead of having a staggered approach (if your pro immigration you are in favour of controlled migration as you recognise mass migration can turn the population against migration, making life harder for migrants socially , and economically ) and it taints him |
Blair was not the most charismatic in my long lifetime (let alone ever).
Churchill and Harold Macmillan were far more so - and I have only once voted Tory. | | | |
| John Major on 19:17 - Feb 28 with 2498 views | chicoazul |
| John Major on 18:17 - Feb 28 by giant_stow |
I sense the beginning of the 'vassal state' blame game. |
Before all this we were half in the EU and once this is all over we will be half out. |  |
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