| John Major on 12:46 - Mar 1 with 5624 views | Lord_Lucan |
| John Major on 12:31 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
"We tried and tried to negotiate."
We really didn't. We've consistently had one foot in and one foot out using vetos and opt-outs — largely for domestic party political reasons (appeasing rebel backbenchers and ideologues in the press).
Then when Cameron gave his demands for "special status" the EU tried to play ball:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
But it still wasn't enough. Such is the atmosphere, rhetoric and downright misinformation surrounding the EU in this country.
Most EU countries see it as a way of safeguading national autonomy and interests in the face of overwhelming global pressures, not to mention getting the benefits of a huge trading bloc. We're like the 15-year-old who wants to get their own flat because they're being "oppressed" by their pretty easy-going parents. Like these parents, the EU seems more switched on and more concerned about our welfare and prospects than we ourselves seem to be. |
To be honest you are looking at this from a small Scotland position.
I'll take your oppressed 15 year old analogy and raise you to a 15 year old who is doing all the work in the house while his parents squander money and get p1ssed all the time. |  |
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| John Major on 13:00 - Mar 1 with 5590 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 12:46 - Mar 1 by Lord_Lucan |
To be honest you are looking at this from a small Scotland position.
I'll take your oppressed 15 year old analogy and raise you to a 15 year old who is doing all the work in the house while his parents squander money and get p1ssed all the time. |
Absolute nonsense - it seems you've swallowed the Daily Express line without thinking.
And I can promise you I'm looking at this from a UK perspective. If I was looking at it from a Scottish position, I'd see the benefit of it revealing the current Westminster-focused system as not fit for purpose. |  |
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| John Major on 13:11 - Mar 1 with 5530 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 13:00 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Absolute nonsense - it seems you've swallowed the Daily Express line without thinking.
And I can promise you I'm looking at this from a UK perspective. If I was looking at it from a Scottish position, I'd see the benefit of it revealing the current Westminster-focused system as not fit for purpose. |
Why is it that when people disagree with you they must automatically get their view from the Express/Mail?
I'm sure Lucan is capable of independent thought.
Like most people he [probably reads his news from various sources and forms his own opinion. It may be different from yours but there is no need to sneer in a smug and superior manner. |  |
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| John Major on 13:16 - Mar 1 with 5550 views | imsureazzure |
| John Major on 13:00 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Absolute nonsense - it seems you've swallowed the Daily Express line without thinking.
And I can promise you I'm looking at this from a UK perspective. If I was looking at it from a Scottish position, I'd see the benefit of it revealing the current Westminster-focused system as not fit for purpose. |
Careful, we have seen the violence that Scottish nationalism can cause only this weekend! |  | | |
| John Major on 13:20 - Mar 1 with 5541 views | chicoazul |
| John Major on 12:01 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
We've hugely exaggerated the federal Europe angle by the way. Most countries in Europe see the EU as a buffer and strength in numbers against being controlled by global political and market forces that don't represent our essential values and aspirations that we as Europeans largely share.
Leaving was always about losing control. Would we leave NATO and any security cooperations to be "more in control of our security"? No, of course we wouldn't. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:01]
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You're acting like the EU isnt part of the very same "global political and market forces" you mention. A protectorate for 500m people is a huge player. |  |
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| John Major on 13:37 - Mar 1 with 5520 views | Ryorry |
Eh?
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| John Major on 13:41 - Mar 1 with 5504 views | Steve_M |
| John Major on 12:41 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Spot on. The leave campaign was positive. We can get money back from the EU and spend it on services. We can open up trade deals with the rest of thre world.
The remain campaign was negative. Recession, Job Losses. World War 3 etc.
Regarding renegotiation: had Germany backed Cameron to get a break on freedom of movement for a few years then the old working class areas in the North would have voted remain rather than leave which would have made the difference.
Blair is trying the tactic of the EU offering us better terms to have another referendum. It worked in Denmark when they rejected Maastricht. They were given four opt-outs designed that overcame the concerns that had caused the initial No vote. The Irish were given several concessions each time the voted no until the EU got the result they wanted. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 16:17]
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The leave campaign was positive, only if you ignore the bits that weren't like Farrage stood in front of racist posters and the lies about Turkey joining the EU.
And, despite your reasons for voting out and those of many others, many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history. |  |
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| John Major on 13:59 - Mar 1 with 5475 views | Lord_Lucan |
| John Major on 13:11 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Why is it that when people disagree with you they must automatically get their view from the Express/Mail?
I'm sure Lucan is capable of independent thought.
Like most people he [probably reads his news from various sources and forms his own opinion. It may be different from yours but there is no need to sneer in a smug and superior manner. |
I genuinely can't remember the last time I read a newspaper of any kind. I might buy a copy of VIZ if I'm on a train though.
Journalism is by and large a forgotten art. I am currently addicted to LBC, you can obtain many different points of view on there, whereupon you can then have a good old think.
..........and then have a glass of wine and forget everything that you've heard. Actually it can be quite annoying, some nights I lay in bed and some caller comes on with a fantastic point, I then make a mental note to remember this but the next day it's gone. I used to take a pen and paper to bed but Lady Lucan got irate when I started taking notes whilst having sex. | |
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| John Major on 14:00 - Mar 1 with 5437 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 13:41 - Mar 1 by Steve_M |
The leave campaign was positive, only if you ignore the bits that weren't like Farrage stood in front of racist posters and the lies about Turkey joining the EU.
And, despite your reasons for voting out and those of many others, many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history. |
Farage wasn't part of the official leave campaign.
We were discussing the official campaigns. Leave was positive. Remain was negative. Had Cameron campaigned on what he saw as the positives of EU membership you may have got a different result. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 14:02]
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| John Major on 14:27 - Mar 1 with 5439 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 13:20 - Mar 1 by chicoazul |
You're acting like the EU isnt part of the very same "global political and market forces" you mention. A protectorate for 500m people is a huge player. |
Yes, let's have regulation for consumers, workers and the environment coming from outside Europe .... that'll be just what we (and the rest of the world) need.
We are part of a powerful lobby towards a more sustainable and happier economy that puts people much more in focus than any other influential market in the world. Undervaluing it and then leaving it shows a frightening lack of perspective and vision.
So yes, it is a protectorate. But not just for its own citizens and not just for the next financial quarter. It's not perfect (no organisation is) but we're dealing with reality here - it's currently the best the world's got. | |
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| John Major on 14:32 - Mar 1 with 5431 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 13:59 - Mar 1 by Lord_Lucan |
I genuinely can't remember the last time I read a newspaper of any kind. I might buy a copy of VIZ if I'm on a train though.
Journalism is by and large a forgotten art. I am currently addicted to LBC, you can obtain many different points of view on there, whereupon you can then have a good old think.
..........and then have a glass of wine and forget everything that you've heard. Actually it can be quite annoying, some nights I lay in bed and some caller comes on with a fantastic point, I then make a mental note to remember this but the next day it's gone. I used to take a pen and paper to bed but Lady Lucan got irate when I started taking notes whilst having sex. |
Going with the "man on the street" view does give you different and important perspectives but where do you get the bigger picture from? That's why you've fallen in line with the populist rhetoric.
Where are your expert and researched opinions in any of this? | |
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| John Major on 14:36 - Mar 1 with 5421 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 13:16 - Mar 1 by imsureazzure |
Careful, we have seen the violence that Scottish nationalism can cause only this weekend! |
Haha. Agreed.
As long as we don't ignore a very slappable Eddie Jones as a cause as well. | |
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| John Major on 15:14 - Mar 1 with 5375 views | Steve_M |
| John Major on 14:00 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Farage wasn't part of the official leave campaign.
We were discussing the official campaigns. Leave was positive. Remain was negative. Had Cameron campaigned on what he saw as the positives of EU membership you may have got a different result. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 14:02]
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So, the unofficial campaign isn't relevant to the result? It certainly is to the reasons many voted to Leave.
Yes, Cameron went for the Lynton Crosby playbook - as in Scotland, 2015 and 2017 - and failed lamentably to make what should have been a very good case for remaining an EU member. | |
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| John Major on 15:16 - Mar 1 with 5351 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 15:14 - Mar 1 by Steve_M |
So, the unofficial campaign isn't relevant to the result? It certainly is to the reasons many voted to Leave.
Yes, Cameron went for the Lynton Crosby playbook - as in Scotland, 2015 and 2017 - and failed lamentably to make what should have been a very good case for remaining an EU member. |
No. But the discussion was about how poorly the official remain campaign was compared to the official leave campaign. Not the result or the other campaigns that also took place.
Official leave was far more positive than project fear.
Your second para is spot on. | |
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| John Major on 15:23 - Mar 1 with 5349 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 15:14 - Mar 1 by Steve_M |
So, the unofficial campaign isn't relevant to the result? It certainly is to the reasons many voted to Leave.
Yes, Cameron went for the Lynton Crosby playbook - as in Scotland, 2015 and 2017 - and failed lamentably to make what should have been a very good case for remaining an EU member. |
Problem was that the fear of staying in the EU has been built up over decades. So engrained we're still hearing most of those tropes in this thread.
Trying to reverse that suddenly with positivity would also have been a failed gambit. So I think the likelier option was to try and fight fire with fire.
But those are just the tactics. The key miscalculation was strategic in not foreseeing that the population would so resoundingly reject the major party lines of IN. Living in their bubble party politicians didn't realise how little people thought of them, or in certain areas how little benefit they'd delivered over the years. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 15:24]
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| John Major on 15:31 - Mar 1 with 5333 views | J2BLUE |
| John Major on 13:41 - Mar 1 by Steve_M |
The leave campaign was positive, only if you ignore the bits that weren't like Farrage stood in front of racist posters and the lies about Turkey joining the EU.
And, despite your reasons for voting out and those of many others, many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history. |
many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history.
So many voted for a hard Brexit then? |  |
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| John Major on 15:45 - Mar 1 with 5302 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Major on 15:31 - Mar 1 by J2BLUE |
many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history.
So many voted for a hard Brexit then? |
Somebody else not reading what was written. Lucan was talking about how positive the official leave campaign was compared to the official remain campaign.
I'm not disputing that immigration was one of the main reasons that leave won and for people voting leave.
So back to the original point. The official leave campaign was far more positive, speaking of things we could do outside the EU, than the official remain campaign, which instead of speaking about their perceived positives of being an EU member they campaigned on the negativity of a leave vote. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 15:46]
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| John Major on 15:57 - Mar 1 with 5289 views | Lord_Lucan |
| John Major on 14:32 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Going with the "man on the street" view does give you different and important perspectives but where do you get the bigger picture from? That's why you've fallen in line with the populist rhetoric.
Where are your expert and researched opinions in any of this? |
My expert and researched opinions are indeed those that I have researched. I don't rely on what I am told by biased journalists on mainstream media, and I certainly don't trust it.
I did read yesterday that smokers of skunk could be affected by mental illness. Note the word "Could", you can just as easy say that eaters of Cornflakes "Could" be affected by mental illness.
Did you know that you are more likely to drown after consuming an Ice Cream? This is indeed a fact, not because Ice Creams make you sink but if you eat an Ice Cream you have a fair chance that you are surrounded by water.
Reporting is often misleading. You need to pick the bones out of things | |
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| John Major on 16:05 - Mar 1 with 5274 views | Darth_Koont |
| John Major on 15:57 - Mar 1 by Lord_Lucan |
My expert and researched opinions are indeed those that I have researched. I don't rely on what I am told by biased journalists on mainstream media, and I certainly don't trust it.
I did read yesterday that smokers of skunk could be affected by mental illness. Note the word "Could", you can just as easy say that eaters of Cornflakes "Could" be affected by mental illness.
Did you know that you are more likely to drown after consuming an Ice Cream? This is indeed a fact, not because Ice Creams make you sink but if you eat an Ice Cream you have a fair chance that you are surrounded by water.
Reporting is often misleading. You need to pick the bones out of things |
Of course. Yet when it comes to it you don't pick the bones out of things. We've been exactly here at least three times that I can remember. | |
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| John Major on 16:12 - Mar 1 with 5264 views | blueislander |
| John Major on 15:45 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Somebody else not reading what was written. Lucan was talking about how positive the official leave campaign was compared to the official remain campaign.
I'm not disputing that immigration was one of the main reasons that leave won and for people voting leave.
So back to the original point. The official leave campaign was far more positive, speaking of things we could do outside the EU, than the official remain campaign, which instead of speaking about their perceived positives of being an EU member they campaigned on the negativity of a leave vote. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 15:46]
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You've changed your tune a bit. I recall that you steadfastly maintained that the main reason that people voted leave was sovereignty.
By the way, have you got your car back? |  | | |
| John Major on 16:13 - Mar 1 with 5263 views | The_Last_Baron |
| John Major on 10:53 - Mar 1 by solemio |
In Major's case it could even be because he thinks it is for the benefit of the whole country, not just for himself.
Major also did the vast majority of the work to bring relative peace in N Ireland, but his successor took all the credit. |
Agree Major did most of the work to bring peace to NI. And I've no doubt he is a better man than Blair, not that that would be difficult. However both lack the self awareness to realise that their intervention in the EU debate is not good for Europhiles. Blair is hated by the majority of the UK population while Major is seen as a dull, grey man who was a weak PM who loved the EU. I feel that if he had have won the 1997 election he would have tried to push the UK towards taking the Euro, not that the people would have had it. A referendum on the Euro would have been rejected but they could have found a way around this as they did with the Lisbon Treaty.
However the people who should be given the credit in NI are those who stood up to terrorism, many of who lost their lives in doing so. John Hume and David Trimble did great work and it's a shame the electorate in NI no longer vote for moderate nationalist and unionist parties. |  |
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| Nice cherry picking Glassers on 16:16 - Mar 1 with 5258 views | Dyland |
| John Major on 12:41 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Spot on. The leave campaign was positive. We can get money back from the EU and spend it on services. We can open up trade deals with the rest of thre world.
The remain campaign was negative. Recession, Job Losses. World War 3 etc.
Regarding renegotiation: had Germany backed Cameron to get a break on freedom of movement for a few years then the old working class areas in the North would have voted remain rather than leave which would have made the difference.
Blair is trying the tactic of the EU offering us better terms to have another referendum. It worked in Denmark when they rejected Maastricht. They were given four opt-outs designed that overcame the concerns that had caused the initial No vote. The Irish were given several concessions each time the voted no until the EU got the result they wanted. [Post edited 1 Mar 2018 16:17]
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"The Leave campaign was positive"
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/3f510b25581c993fae11fe42817a9c6d3780f376/0_305_50 |  |
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| Nice cherry picking Glassers on 16:18 - Mar 1 with 5251 views | GlasgowBlue |
I fear I have to repeat myself far too much on here.
John Major by GlasgowBlue 1 Mar 2018 14:00Farage wasn't part of the official leave campaign.
We were discussing the official campaigns. Leave was positive. Remain was negative. Had Cameron campaigned on what he saw as the positives of EU membership you may have got a different result.
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| John Major on 16:18 - Mar 1 with 5251 views | The_Last_Baron |
| John Major on 15:31 - Mar 1 by J2BLUE |
many did vote on immigration. To pretend otherwise is re-writing history.
So many voted for a hard Brexit then? |
No such thing as a hard brexit. It's a Remain propaganda term. Hard Brexit equals leaving; soft Brexit equals remaining under the boot of Brussels and the EU>
We voted to leave the European Union - remaining in any of it's major institutions is not leaving the EU.
Accept the referendum result and get on with life. There are more important things in life, family and friends for a start. If the UK fudges leaving and does a leaving in name only arrangement, this issue will not die. It will lead to political unrest which will result in major problems and see us leave the EU in full eventually in any case. The genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.
I would predict the EU will collapse by 2030, if it lasts that long. It's demise is inevitable. | |
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| Nice cherry picking Glassers on 16:24 - Mar 1 with 5242 views | Dyland |
| Nice cherry picking Glassers on 16:18 - Mar 1 by GlasgowBlue |
I fear I have to repeat myself far too much on here.
John Major by GlasgowBlue 1 Mar 2018 14:00Farage wasn't part of the official leave campaign.
We were discussing the official campaigns. Leave was positive. Remain was negative. Had Cameron campaigned on what he saw as the positives of EU membership you may have got a different result.
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Nope, you said that after you simply mentioned "the Leave campaign" you tinker.
Putting your absurd disingenuous side stepping to one side though, Farage's campaigning probably had a factor in the outcome, you won't deny that. And my point stands that the Leave campaign wasn't simply positive, the Remain campaign simply negative. Stop being so reductionist on such a complex matter.
FFS x | |
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