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Following on from Joe's Ricky Gervais thread, which comedians / shows have seen better days?
The Last Leg for me has become too stagnant. The sketch where they had the guy doing a zoom call as politicians was one of the worst comedy segments I've ever seen. Adam Hills looked embarrassed as how bad it was (although to be far, it wasn't done by one of the core group).
Frankie Boyle has lost some of his Mock The Week charm. New World Order always has a slightly odd feel to it and Frankie's rambling monologues at the end border on being too weird and whacky.
1
Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:25 - Nov 17 with 3401 views
I guess a lot is personal taste, but agree re Last Leg - feels like it needs a fresh set of writers now
I think the problem is things move on so quickly with podcasts, YouTube shows etc that there is so much new content out there almost daily that you've got to stay ahead of the game or really zig when everyone zagging and do something totally out there.
There are comedians who do great stand up, like James Acaster, but then I find his podcast a tough listen at times - so much about chemistry between the two comedians in it.
Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:28 - Nov 17 by itfcjoe
I guess a lot is personal taste, but agree re Last Leg - feels like it needs a fresh set of writers now
I think the problem is things move on so quickly with podcasts, YouTube shows etc that there is so much new content out there almost daily that you've got to stay ahead of the game or really zig when everyone zagging and do something totally out there.
There are comedians who do great stand up, like James Acaster, but then I find his podcast a tough listen at times - so much about chemistry between the two comedians in it.
Agree with regards to chemistry. It can make or break a season of shows like Taskmaster.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 9:44]
0
Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:43 - Nov 17 with 3322 views
I'm not even sure that Ricky Gervais has seen better days; I've always thought he was sh!t. I did discover last night that he used to 'manage' Suede briefly, which was interesting.
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Agree re. the Last Leg, that's got so stale that I wouldn't be tempted to watch it nowadays.
James Acaster has been mentioned, he's someone I used to enjoy and have seen him live on more than 1 occasion, but I went off him pretty quickly. I can't really put my finger on why, I just find him to be so up his own ar5e and not in a funny way. I find him really hard to warm to, compared to someone like Greg Davies who I find really likable.
That Frankie Boyle NWO show is pretty crap tbh. As you say, the monologues feel really forced, and the whole thing so relentlessly lefty bumfest that any message they might have just loses credibility.
I was born underwater, I dried out in the sun.
I started humping volcanoes baby, when I was too young.
Russell Howard in terms of comedians. He used to have a lot more energy.
In terms of show I think ‘The Mash Report’ has got too shouty. Used to be really funny - the spoofs news headlines are still funny - but Nish Kumar just seems to want to shout and to make a point.
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:01 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon
Russell Howard in terms of comedians. He used to have a lot more energy.
In terms of show I think ‘The Mash Report’ has got too shouty. Used to be really funny - the spoofs news headlines are still funny - but Nish Kumar just seems to want to shout and to make a point.
Nish Kumar is insufferable. His voice grates on me so much.
Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:57 - Nov 17 by Dubtractor
That Frankie Boyle NWO show is pretty crap tbh. As you say, the monologues feel really forced, and the whole thing so relentlessly lefty bumfest that any message they might have just loses credibility.
That show seems to want to jam Kerry Pritchard-Mclean down our throat too. Her jokes consist of her sleeping with men for various reasons - that's about it. I saw her on Have I Got News For You (another show that I feel has lost its way - partly due to Paul Merton looking like he's phoning it in these days) and it was the same.
The rest of the guests generally play up to their stereotypes a lot (race, sexuality, disability etc), although I do quite like Jamali Maddox when he's on it.
With regards to James Acaster, I'm a bit meh on him.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 10:46]
0
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:43 - Nov 17 with 3104 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:01 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon
Russell Howard in terms of comedians. He used to have a lot more energy.
In terms of show I think ‘The Mash Report’ has got too shouty. Used to be really funny - the spoofs news headlines are still funny - but Nish Kumar just seems to want to shout and to make a point.
Was he ever funny? He always seemed way out of his depth whenever he was on Mock the Week
Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:28 - Nov 17 by itfcjoe
I guess a lot is personal taste, but agree re Last Leg - feels like it needs a fresh set of writers now
I think the problem is things move on so quickly with podcasts, YouTube shows etc that there is so much new content out there almost daily that you've got to stay ahead of the game or really zig when everyone zagging and do something totally out there.
There are comedians who do great stand up, like James Acaster, but then I find his podcast a tough listen at times - so much about chemistry between the two comedians in it.
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
21
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:51 - Nov 17 with 3032 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
Genuinely interesting read.
2
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:53 - Nov 17 with 3023 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
Really interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
Great stuff. I guess it's the same as small bands suddenly making it big and having a difficult second/third album.
Acaster's a genius, I think, and if anyone can negotiate it he can.
Used to think some Gervais was funny (esp. Extras), but even the Office is pretty plodding. BBC4 recently showed the infamous dance episode next to The Royle Family: it was striking how much more nuanced and clever TRF was.
Punching down in the name of free speech is the oldest, stalest one in the book. Far rather Jerry Sadowitz.
0
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 with 2993 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:01 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon
Russell Howard in terms of comedians. He used to have a lot more energy.
In terms of show I think ‘The Mash Report’ has got too shouty. Used to be really funny - the spoofs news headlines are still funny - but Nish Kumar just seems to want to shout and to make a point.
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry.
If you liked my post, please take the time to upvote it. It's very much appreciated.
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry.
I don’t actually find Rosie Jones funny at all but she’s obviously popular as she is on telly a lot and I think her shows regularly sell out.
Katherine Ryan I find to be a truly awful comedian - does anyone find her funny?
1
I'm with you on most of that.... on 11:08 - Nov 17 with 2905 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry.
...Boyle is still really good, particularly live. There's a lot more to him than just taking the p*ss out of Jade Goody and Katie Price.
Kumar isn't funny, the series of Taskmaster that he was on is the only one I don't enjoy, it's purely because of him.
I've tried with Rosie Jones, but again she just isn't funny. I actually find it quite patronising watching her on panel shows where other comedians are rolling around laughing at her comments when there is simply nothing to laugh at.
Most recently I've been to see Paul Chowdhry, Dave Gorman and Ipswich's own Omid Djalili.....they were all really good in different ways.
Oh......another one that's not funny: Sarah Millican - "I'm northern and I like cakes".
Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite.
1
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:14 - Nov 17 with 2872 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
Thanks for posting that - very interesting read.
Pardon my ignorance but please may I ask a question- some musicians are looked down upon for using song writers to help develop their sound. I think Noel Gallagher mocked Liam for having a team of songwriters and there are other examples as well. In the comedy world is in common practice for comedians to use writers to help their act? Or is it looked down upon and seen as not being talented, funny or clever enough to write their own material?
0
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:16 - Nov 17 with 2866 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines.
A great read. I did hear from a friend that James Acaster had a meltdown on (a standup) stage, I *think* due to a heckle that he misheard. His Netflix special Repertoir is excellent. I think he's great and brave to have created his persona. What's he like in real life?
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Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:16 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD
A great read. I did hear from a friend that James Acaster had a meltdown on (a standup) stage, I *think* due to a heckle that he misheard. His Netflix special Repertoir is excellent. I think he's great and brave to have created his persona. What's he like in real life?
There's the bit about the audience in Glasgow heckling him and the whole front row being sent out. I'd assumed that wasn't actually true...
0
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:26 - Nov 17 with 2786 views
Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:14 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon
Thanks for posting that - very interesting read.
Pardon my ignorance but please may I ask a question- some musicians are looked down upon for using song writers to help develop their sound. I think Noel Gallagher mocked Liam for having a team of songwriters and there are other examples as well. In the comedy world is in common practice for comedians to use writers to help their act? Or is it looked down upon and seen as not being talented, funny or clever enough to write their own material?
Where did I hear this... possibly the Mock The Week final extra bits at the end of the final series. Comedians do have stuff written for them. Apparently many aren't good enough to come up with enough material for that show.
There was also a Katherine Ryan special on Amazon which was interesting in its own right as it had cameras behind the scenes. Recommended, if only to learn about the comedians rather than the all too brief sets.
Katherine Ryan and Jimmy Carr do have good chemistry together and Your Face or Mine (Celeb) is funny if you only see a couple of episodes but Roast Battle on comedy central is excellent. Niche perhaps.
Oh and Question Team with our own Richard Ayoade is great. Need to see him on more things.
I'll be very happy if I never see Jonathon Ross on TV again.
If you liked my post, please take the time to upvote it. It's very much appreciated.
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