| Tories going all out for No Deal then 08:57 - Oct 8 with 9941 views | itfcjoe |
Allegedly from Dominic Cummings, bloke is a jumped up pr!ck and I'd love to see this all blow up in his face.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negoti
‘The negotiations will probably end this week. Varadkar doesn’t want to negotiate. Varadkar was keen on talking before the Benn Act when he thought that the choice would be ‘new deal or no deal’. Since the Benn Act passed he has gone very cold and in the last week the official channels and the backchannels have also gone cold. Varadkar has also gone back on his commitments – he said if we moved on manufactured goods then he would also move but instead he just attacked us publicly. It’s clear he wants to gamble on a second referendum and that he’s encouraging Barnier to stick to the line that the UK cannot leave the EU without leaving Northern Ireland behind.
There are quite a few people in Paris and Berlin who would like to discuss our offer but Merkel and Macron won’t push Barnier unless Ireland says it wants to negotiate. Those who think Merkel will help us are deluded. As things stand, Dublin will do nothing, hoping we offer more, then at the end of this week they may say ‘OK, let’s do a Northern Ireland only backstop with a time limit’, which is what various players have been hinting at, then we’ll say No, and that will probably be the end.
Varadkar thinks that either there will be a referendum or we win a majority but we will just put this offer back on the table so he thinks he can’t lose by refusing to compromise now. Given his assumptions, Varadkar’s behaviour is arguably rational but his assumptions are, I think, false. Ireland and Brussels listen to all the people who lost the referendum, they don’t listen to those who won the referendum and they don’t understand the electoral dynamics here.
If this deal dies in the next few days, then it won’t be revived. To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately’. They thought that if May went then Brexit would get softer. It seems few have learned from this mistake. They think we’re bluffing and there’s nothing we can do about that, not least given the way May and Hammond constantly talked tough then folded.
So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act. The Act imposes narrow duties. Our legal advice is clear that we can do all sorts of things to scupper delay which for obvious reasons we aren’t going into details about. Different lawyers see the “frustration principle” very differently especially on a case like this where there is no precedent for primary legislation directing how the PM conducts international discussions.
We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation – cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected if the EU tries to keep Britain in against the will of its government] Supporting delay will be seen by this government as hostile interference in domestic politics, and over half of the public will agree with us.
We will also make clear that this government will not negotiate further so any delay would be totally pointless. They think now that if there is another delay we will keep coming back with new proposals. This won’t happen. We’ll either leave with no deal on 31 October or there will be an election and then we will leave with no deal.
‘When they say ‘so what is the point of delay?’, we will say “This is not our delay, the government is not asking for a delay – Parliament is sending you a letter and Parliament is asking for a delay but official government policy remains that delay is an atrocious idea that everyone should dismiss. Any delay will in effect be negotiated between you, Parliament, and the courts – we will wash our hands of it, we won’t engage in further talks, we obviously won’t given any undertakings about cooperative behaviour, everything to do with ‘duty of sincere cooperation’ will be in the toilet, we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave. Those who supported delay will face the inevitable consequences of being seen to interfere in domestic politics in a deeply unpopular way by colluding with a Parliament that is as popular as the clap.
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies.’ |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:07 - Oct 8 with 1422 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:06 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Crude assumption. Parallels can be drawn with specific events of the era without a full assertion such as you assume. |
"We are sadly going the way of 1930s Germany". ok perhaps he just means that we're getting some new motorways? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:10 - Oct 8 with 1409 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:07 - Oct 8 by Darth_Koont |
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. While shilling for the Brexit Party. |
and those who resort to hysteria, hyperbole and dystopian fantasy devalue political discussion. just calm down a bit. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:10 - Oct 8 with 1408 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:07 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"We are sadly going the way of 1930s Germany". ok perhaps he just means that we're getting some new motorways? |
Interesting you would choose to use sarcasm as a reply and ignore the essence of my post. That is society at the moment I guess, going all in or not at all. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:14 - Oct 8 with 1391 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:10 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Interesting you would choose to use sarcasm as a reply and ignore the essence of my post. That is society at the moment I guess, going all in or not at all. |
there was an essence to your post - how exciting. so which "specific events of the era" are we paralleling? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:17 - Oct 8 with 1382 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 09:44 - Oct 8 by flimflam |
You sound surprised. Its the only end game since BJ took charge, everything else is just noise. [Post edited 8 Oct 2019 9:51]
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It is the only end game since the referendum and the reason why I voted remain. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:19 - Oct 8 with 1368 views | footers |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:14 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
there was an essence to your post - how exciting. so which "specific events of the era" are we paralleling? |
Maybe read Swanners' post on the previous page for your answer. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:20 - Oct 8 with 1365 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:14 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
there was an essence to your post - how exciting. so which "specific events of the era" are we paralleling? |
The ones that relate to the original post. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 with 1361 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:06 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of.
Luckily, our institutions seem to be holding them to account and binding them by law (for now). But the will and the intent form this particular bunch of Tories is there. It's pure fascism (with a small 'f').
But no, I don't think they'll be invading neighbouring states and gassing whole swathes of the population any time soon. |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:25 - Oct 8 with 1353 views | footers |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. |
Always good to hear your singular view on the subject, again and again, lowhouse. Be sure to drop by again soon. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:31 - Oct 8 with 1328 views | The_Last_Baron |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 09:03 - Oct 8 by wkj |
May's Deal never looked bad in my opinion, just that one sticking point |
It was worse than staying on the EU. Which was the intention.
Bring on WTO. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:31 - Oct 8 with 1329 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. |
The sad thing is, you are doing exactly what you accuse us of in your closing paragraph. Accepting that there are similarities, but admitting the end result being far from the same is far from hysterical or spinning mad lines. In fact, both swanners and I have questioned brash right wing and left wing devoutness on here a number of times and fairly consistently. Apologies if your point of view differs, and you don't feel that Boris is figure head for some powerful people with focused aims in the background and using a bit of social engineering to make it happen, but they're hardly mad lines just because you don't see it that way. [Post edited 8 Oct 2019 10:39]
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:41 - Oct 8 with 1315 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:31 - Oct 8 by The_Last_Baron |
It was worse than staying on the EU. Which was the intention.
Bring on WTO. |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:41 - Oct 8 with 1313 views | hampstead_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 09:19 - Oct 8 by Guthrum |
Articles of faith. Both sides carry a promise of salvation no longer necessarily connected with reality. Life will become wonderful if Brexit is accomplished/avoided, we just have to have sufficient positivity and keep pushing. |
Great point.
It's been a war of propaganda.
The EU never wanted us to leave and will do everything in their gift to keep us.
Those of us who want to leave, the majority albeit narrow, don't have the might of the Brussels PR machine so cannot win that battle. We still want to leave though.
Post EU is the unknown which has been made to look grey and damp by those who want us to remain.
I'm optimistic. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:44 - Oct 8 with 1309 views | hampstead_blue |
That statement is something which should have been made clear to the EU a long time ago.
It's a no-nonsense piece. Let us have a deal or we leave. It's simple. Don't blame BJ for No Deal, there are clearly lots of things going on behind the scenes to deliberately frustrate us leaving.
I've said this before, the EU should allow us to leave. I'm pleased someone has published this as it really does show that the May team were too tame and it's going to take a set of steel balls to stand-up to the EU.
No Deal isn't a good deal. But if they want to play chicken then so be it. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:45 - Oct 8 with 1301 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:41 - Oct 8 by hampstead_blue |
Great point.
It's been a war of propaganda.
The EU never wanted us to leave and will do everything in their gift to keep us.
Those of us who want to leave, the majority albeit narrow, don't have the might of the Brussels PR machine so cannot win that battle. We still want to leave though.
Post EU is the unknown which has been made to look grey and damp by those who want us to remain.
I'm optimistic. |
If the right people make the right decisions, both outcomes can be optimistic. The way it feels now though is very improvised and garish and I feel an optimistic outcome will rely heavily on a more focused and forward thinking government, regardless of what side of the house it comes from. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:47 - Oct 8 with 1294 views | hampstead_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:45 - Oct 8 by wkj |
If the right people make the right decisions, both outcomes can be optimistic. The way it feels now though is very improvised and garish and I feel an optimistic outcome will rely heavily on a more focused and forward thinking government, regardless of what side of the house it comes from. |
Well said.
I have been hoping for both sides to gently come more to the centre to get some sanity and boredom back in politics. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:04 - Oct 8 with 1266 views | chicoazul |
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies
This is correct, and backs up what many people have said many times on here and elsewhere; Simply, remain cannot win against leave. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:07 - Oct 8 with 1249 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:04 - Oct 8 by chicoazul |
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies
This is correct, and backs up what many people have said many times on here and elsewhere; Simply, remain cannot win against leave. |
?
You're a poundshop Dominic Cummings. |  |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:13 - Oct 8 with 1240 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 10:24 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of. "
what utter nonsense. if you type those things and believe them you are clearly living in an echo chamber where no one ever challenges your descent into madness. and with this short thread I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other. |
So basically you are going to stick your fingers in your ears and walk away. Well done in encapsulating everything that is wrong with voters in this country.....it doesn't fit with your beliefs so you walk away throwing toys out of the pram.
I look forward to more of your razor sharp insight in the future..... |  | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:27 - Oct 8 with 1213 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:13 - Oct 8 by JohnWarksTash |
So basically you are going to stick your fingers in your ears and walk away. Well done in encapsulating everything that is wrong with voters in this country.....it doesn't fit with your beliefs so you walk away throwing toys out of the pram.
I look forward to more of your razor sharp insight in the future..... |
haven't you noticed that lots of people are walking away from the politics discussion on here - it has become infantile and dominated by a group who just constantly and aggressively shout the same slogans. it's very dull. haven't you noticed how fewer people post now? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:42 - Oct 8 with 1190 views | Darth_Koont |
But that's a red, white and blue debt so all good. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:43 - Oct 8 with 1187 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:27 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
haven't you noticed that lots of people are walking away from the politics discussion on here - it has become infantile and dominated by a group who just constantly and aggressively shout the same slogans. it's very dull. haven't you noticed how fewer people post now? |
Maybe less petty party politics and more reality needed? Just a thought. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:49 - Oct 8 with 1175 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:27 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
haven't you noticed that lots of people are walking away from the politics discussion on here - it has become infantile and dominated by a group who just constantly and aggressively shout the same slogans. it's very dull. haven't you noticed how fewer people post now? |
Actually it hasn't, if anything that sort of behaviour has decreased on both sides and there are more people questioning where the centre ground lies. There are still devout on both sides of the coin, but most of the time when a reasoned point is made, reasoned compromise or debate follows. | |
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| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:58 - Oct 8 with 1151 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:49 - Oct 8 by wkj |
Actually it hasn't, if anything that sort of behaviour has decreased on both sides and there are more people questioning where the centre ground lies. There are still devout on both sides of the coin, but most of the time when a reasoned point is made, reasoned compromise or debate follows. |
and yet you think that calling boris a fascist is sane and profound. seriously, you're in a bubble of the purest group think all nodding along and seeing who can agree the loudest. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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