| Tories going all out for No Deal then 08:57 - Oct 8 with 9944 views | itfcjoe |
Allegedly from Dominic Cummings, bloke is a jumped up pr!ck and I'd love to see this all blow up in his face.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negoti
‘The negotiations will probably end this week. Varadkar doesn’t want to negotiate. Varadkar was keen on talking before the Benn Act when he thought that the choice would be ‘new deal or no deal’. Since the Benn Act passed he has gone very cold and in the last week the official channels and the backchannels have also gone cold. Varadkar has also gone back on his commitments – he said if we moved on manufactured goods then he would also move but instead he just attacked us publicly. It’s clear he wants to gamble on a second referendum and that he’s encouraging Barnier to stick to the line that the UK cannot leave the EU without leaving Northern Ireland behind.
There are quite a few people in Paris and Berlin who would like to discuss our offer but Merkel and Macron won’t push Barnier unless Ireland says it wants to negotiate. Those who think Merkel will help us are deluded. As things stand, Dublin will do nothing, hoping we offer more, then at the end of this week they may say ‘OK, let’s do a Northern Ireland only backstop with a time limit’, which is what various players have been hinting at, then we’ll say No, and that will probably be the end.
Varadkar thinks that either there will be a referendum or we win a majority but we will just put this offer back on the table so he thinks he can’t lose by refusing to compromise now. Given his assumptions, Varadkar’s behaviour is arguably rational but his assumptions are, I think, false. Ireland and Brussels listen to all the people who lost the referendum, they don’t listen to those who won the referendum and they don’t understand the electoral dynamics here.
If this deal dies in the next few days, then it won’t be revived. To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately’. They thought that if May went then Brexit would get softer. It seems few have learned from this mistake. They think we’re bluffing and there’s nothing we can do about that, not least given the way May and Hammond constantly talked tough then folded.
So, if talks go nowhere this week, the next phase will require us to set out our view on the Surrender Act. The Act imposes narrow duties. Our legal advice is clear that we can do all sorts of things to scupper delay which for obvious reasons we aren’t going into details about. Different lawyers see the “frustration principle” very differently especially on a case like this where there is no precedent for primary legislation directing how the PM conducts international discussions.
We will make clear privately and publicly that countries which oppose delay will go the front of the queue for future cooperation – cooperation on things both within and outside EU competences. Those who support delay will go to the bottom of the queue. [This source also made clear that defence and security cooperation will inevitably be affected if the EU tries to keep Britain in against the will of its government] Supporting delay will be seen by this government as hostile interference in domestic politics, and over half of the public will agree with us.
We will also make clear that this government will not negotiate further so any delay would be totally pointless. They think now that if there is another delay we will keep coming back with new proposals. This won’t happen. We’ll either leave with no deal on 31 October or there will be an election and then we will leave with no deal.
‘When they say ‘so what is the point of delay?’, we will say “This is not our delay, the government is not asking for a delay – Parliament is sending you a letter and Parliament is asking for a delay but official government policy remains that delay is an atrocious idea that everyone should dismiss. Any delay will in effect be negotiated between you, Parliament, and the courts – we will wash our hands of it, we won’t engage in further talks, we obviously won’t given any undertakings about cooperative behaviour, everything to do with ‘duty of sincere cooperation’ will be in the toilet, we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave. Those who supported delay will face the inevitable consequences of being seen to interfere in domestic politics in a deeply unpopular way by colluding with a Parliament that is as popular as the clap.
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies.’ |  |
| |  |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:15 - Oct 8 with 1389 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:10 - Oct 8 by wkj |
There was that, Badger, the facebook group we aren't allowed to mention, the factors incident, quite a number of other things. |
You're right. Badger's wedding photos were circulated which was bang out of order and the perpetrators should have been banned immediately. I'd forgotten about that.
I'm in the dark about any facebook group. Facters wasn't doxed or stalked offline. |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:15 - Oct 8 with 1388 views | m14_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:09 - Oct 8 by SpruceMoose |
The example you gave wasn't doxing either Pops. But don't let your ignorance get in the way of your impotent rage you love to aim towards me! |
Can you satisfy my ignorance too please, what the hell is doxing? |  | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:15 - Oct 8 with 1388 views | footers |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:12 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
so their 'will and intent' is pure fascism but he's not 'calling anyone' a fascist? perhaps it's something they only have the will and intent for at the weekends, or, while they have the will and intent for fascism, they don't yet have the uniform? |
Well, what happened to "I've had my fill of the twtd hysterical group think for the day. have fun spinning madder and madder lines to each other." Eh?
Oh and btw, you might want to stop your blatant hysteria about Corbz too while you're at it ;) |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:16 - Oct 8 with 1385 views | footers |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:15 - Oct 8 by m14_blue |
Can you satisfy my ignorance too please, what the hell is doxing? |
Revealing someone's irl info online. | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:16 - Oct 8 with 1383 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:14 - Oct 8 by SpruceMoose |
Calm down Captain Mainwaring you'll blow a gasket. |
I'm sat down drinking a hot chocolate with marshmallows and cream. I'm more likely to fall asleep than blow a gasket. | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:17 - Oct 8 with 1376 views | SpruceMoose |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:16 - Oct 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm sat down drinking a hot chocolate with marshmallows and cream. I'm more likely to fall asleep than blow a gasket. |
That sounds pretty good to be fair. Just missing a slug of rum. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:18 - Oct 8 with 1372 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:12 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
so their 'will and intent' is pure fascism but he's not 'calling anyone' a fascist? perhaps it's something they only have the will and intent for at the weekends, or, while they have the will and intent for fascism, they don't yet have the uniform? |
It is very important in this context, actions and behavior may define someone but the post has talked about how Cummings could be using Boris as sort of political puppet, so it is very important that whilst behaviour might define who a person is, it is hard to see if that behavior is defining Boris of Cummings. Hence, I do not see where Borris has been called a fascist. |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:18 - Oct 8 with 1367 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:13 - Oct 8 by wkj |
The time you doxxed me as being Spruce |
Well that didn't happen. I recall you answering a question that was put to sprucey about living in the US and I asked if you were one in the same. You said you weren't and I said fair enough. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:19 - Oct 8 with 1359 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:15 - Oct 8 by GlasgowBlue |
You're right. Badger's wedding photos were circulated which was bang out of order and the perpetrators should have been banned immediately. I'd forgotten about that.
I'm in the dark about any facebook group. Facters wasn't doxed or stalked offline. |
He was! How many times have we seen him out on here referring to his time featured in the Bible? | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:19 - Oct 8 with 1355 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:18 - Oct 8 by wkj |
It is very important in this context, actions and behavior may define someone but the post has talked about how Cummings could be using Boris as sort of political puppet, so it is very important that whilst behaviour might define who a person is, it is hard to see if that behavior is defining Boris of Cummings. Hence, I do not see where Borris has been called a fascist. |
yeah right. i see no ships. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:20 - Oct 8 with 1353 views | m14_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:16 - Oct 8 by footers |
Revealing someone's irl info online. |
Ta | | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:20 - Oct 8 with 1352 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:18 - Oct 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Well that didn't happen. I recall you answering a question that was put to sprucey about living in the US and I asked if you were one in the same. You said you weren't and I said fair enough. |
If you check the post of yours I replied to with that I hope you'll see that as a blatant joke relative to what you had said seems as the scenarios are very similar. | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:21 - Oct 8 with 1345 views | footers |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:20 - Oct 8 by m14_blue |
Ta |
No problem, Dave of 47 Nelson Mandela House, Peckham. | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:24 - Oct 8 with 1335 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:19 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
yeah right. i see no ships. |
That is quite dismissive. I thought you was advocating a more balanced and contemplative political discussion without slogans and hysteria? So far I have ticked all of those boxes in this post, and you have been sarcastic with me twice now. I am very confused by what you are lamenting about the way things used to be or should be compared to how you have come across in this reply. They don't seem very compatible. [Post edited 8 Oct 2019 14:02]
| |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:39 - Oct 8 with 1302 views | m14_blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:21 - Oct 8 by footers |
No problem, Dave of 47 Nelson Mandela House, Peckham. |
What the hell??
How did you.....?
I knew this interweb thing was dangerous | | | |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:40 - Oct 8 with 1299 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 12:47 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
page 1, 10.06, swansea_blue |
That's me. I wasn't specifically calling Boris a fascist. I was saying that the government's behaviour has parallels with fascist behaviour. I even spelt out what's typically considered fascist behaviour looks like and gave examples of government behaviour that comply with the definition. Someone posed this question about fascist behaviour before (joe was it?) and people weren't able to discuss it sensibly then either.
The biggest problem is people don't actually know what fascism means anymore. But we could substitute the word 'fascist' for 'authoritarian' if it makes you feel more comfortable. I wasn't "hysterically" shouting fascist at people to close down debate, but musing over the apparent parallels over the modus operandi. I'd have thought that was fairly obvious. |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:40 - Oct 8 with 1299 views | wkj |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:39 - Oct 8 by m14_blue |
What the hell??
How did you.....?
I knew this interweb thing was dangerous |
Footers is Judge Rinder offline | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:45 - Oct 8 with 1289 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:40 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
That's me. I wasn't specifically calling Boris a fascist. I was saying that the government's behaviour has parallels with fascist behaviour. I even spelt out what's typically considered fascist behaviour looks like and gave examples of government behaviour that comply with the definition. Someone posed this question about fascist behaviour before (joe was it?) and people weren't able to discuss it sensibly then either.
The biggest problem is people don't actually know what fascism means anymore. But we could substitute the word 'fascist' for 'authoritarian' if it makes you feel more comfortable. I wasn't "hysterically" shouting fascist at people to close down debate, but musing over the apparent parallels over the modus operandi. I'd have thought that was fairly obvious. |
your post:
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of.
Luckily, our institutions seem to be holding them to account and binding them by law (for now). But the will and the intent form this particular bunch of Tories is there. It's pure fascism (with a small 'f')."
it's hysterical and silly. it is almost impossible to read that as implying other than that boris is a fascist. you can wriggle but it's a very silly post. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:52 - Oct 8 with 1269 views | giant_stow |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:40 - Oct 8 by Swansea_Blue |
That's me. I wasn't specifically calling Boris a fascist. I was saying that the government's behaviour has parallels with fascist behaviour. I even spelt out what's typically considered fascist behaviour looks like and gave examples of government behaviour that comply with the definition. Someone posed this question about fascist behaviour before (joe was it?) and people weren't able to discuss it sensibly then either.
The biggest problem is people don't actually know what fascism means anymore. But we could substitute the word 'fascist' for 'authoritarian' if it makes you feel more comfortable. I wasn't "hysterically" shouting fascist at people to close down debate, but musing over the apparent parallels over the modus operandi. I'd have thought that was fairly obvious. |
It was obvious. I don't know what's got into Lowhouse (Lowhouse, I admire your posts most of the time, backed as they are with careful thought and knowledge, but the only one sounding hysterical in this thread is you, sadly). |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 14:19 - Oct 8 with 1222 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:45 - Oct 8 by lowhouseblue |
your post:
"Extreme, but it's hard to deny their approach is fascist (of the literal definition rather than symbolic goose stepping Nazis). Invoking the will of the people to facilitate the wishes of the state, crushing dissenters (calling out political opponents as 'traitors'), unwillingness to be held to account and disregard for the rule of law and national institutions (anti-judiciary, 'enemies of the people', etc), pumping out blatant state propaganda that any authoritarian regime would be proud of.
Luckily, our institutions seem to be holding them to account and binding them by law (for now). But the will and the intent form this particular bunch of Tories is there. It's pure fascism (with a small 'f')."
it's hysterical and silly. it is almost impossible to read that as implying other than that boris is a fascist. you can wriggle but it's a very silly post. |
My point was that this government are operating in some ways that are reminiscent of practices of fascist regimes. Openly attempting to close down parliament is the latest one, which thankfully the courts have headed off for now. Boris need not be the driving force - he's certainly the mouthpiece and focal point though.
To me their behaviour is becoming increasingly fascist-like. Fascist-lite maybe, but trying to deny parliament a voice, openly stating they'll ignore the law, whipping up nationalistic support against the decadent 'elite', scapegoating foreigners, playing on nationalistic feelings, etc., are all considered textbook fascist behaviours. We see elements of all of this to some degree.
Imo they are fascist like behaviours. It's their will to behave in this way because they think it will win them an election (fascism by definition is popular). Whether they are actually fascists is another question entirely. Because a lot of what they do is a game and often a lot of what comes from number 10 is a lie/a front, they may well not be. I wasn't claiming they are individually, but collectively they're borrowing from the fascists' playbook.
Maybe you're thinking of a different definition of fascism to me. I'm not saying they're Nazis, I'm not saying Boris is a dictator. I'm saying that some of their actions comply with the definition of fascism.
fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm)
n (sometimes capital)
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy* and liberalism
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3. prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism.
*opposition to democracy is a complex one call them out on. They are clearly happy to oppose democracy, as shown by trying to illegally shut down parliament. But then they are also claiming, with some justification, that they are trying to implement democracy by honoring the result of the referendum. These points alone could be debated for hours (and have been on here without anyone getting anywhere). | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 14:24 - Oct 8 with 1210 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:18 - Oct 8 by wkj |
It is very important in this context, actions and behavior may define someone but the post has talked about how Cummings could be using Boris as sort of political puppet, so it is very important that whilst behaviour might define who a person is, it is hard to see if that behavior is defining Boris of Cummings. Hence, I do not see where Borris has been called a fascist. |
And of course, they're also gaming all of this. It's possible to use techniques associated with a particular type of movement without being of that movement yourself. It works (at least in the short-term). What happens when they can't deliver on their promises is another matter.
We occasionally string a few passes together; it doesn't make us Barcelona or footballing purists. | |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 14:24 - Oct 8 with 1209 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 13:52 - Oct 8 by giant_stow |
It was obvious. I don't know what's got into Lowhouse (Lowhouse, I admire your posts most of the time, backed as they are with careful thought and knowledge, but the only one sounding hysterical in this thread is you, sadly). |
Pffft.
Lowhouse has been the same carelessly disingenuous and partisan politics groupie for years. He's just out of step now and sticks out like a sore thumb. |  |
| |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 16:40 - Oct 8 with 1143 views | BlueBadger |
| Tories going all out for No Deal then on 11:04 - Oct 8 by chicoazul |
Those who pushed the Benn Act intended to sabotage a deal and they’ve probably succeeded. So the main effect of it will probably be to help us win an election by uniting the leave vote and then a no deal Brexit. History is full of such ironies and tragedies
This is correct, and backs up what many people have said many times on here and elsewhere; Simply, remain cannot win against leave. |
How is legislation designed to ensure that a deal happens, sabotaging one? |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
