| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? 17:39 - Jan 10 with 33424 views | amy73 |
There will always be pressures and individual problems but, in general, the NHS seems to be in much better hands under the Tories. It’s never treated so many people so efficiently.
I think Labour are playing a dangerous game here by running it down. |  | | |  |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:23 - Jan 11 with 3042 views | imsureazzure |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:13 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
But you asked the question in reply to a post I made about scoring political points out of the health service. You then tried to score a political point over the Brexit Bus which was irrelevant to what I had posted.
You thought you were laying out a clever trap but failed to read the post properly. Not your fault. I do it all the time.
In answer to the question then yes, so long as we have a health service run by politicians and those politicians have different ideas on how to fund and run the NHS, I have no problem with those politicians using it as a tool to promote their polices.
What I believe, as I stated in my post, is that we, not politicians, should be able to discuss the future of health provision in this country without scoring political points. [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 18:14]
|
If the NHS is not politicised there would be no requirement for the labour party. |  | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:49 - Jan 11 with 3011 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:21 - Jan 11 by eireblue |
No, I read the post correctly.
I was asking my question, which you have finally answered. |
Nope. You thought I had said the NHS. You even used quotation marks in your question.
Should a "No using NHS for political points" rule be applied to buses?
Sometimes it's more dignified to admit you misread something than keep digging even deeper. It will make you seem a little more human and less robot-like. People will also respect you more for it. [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 18:52]
|  |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:57 - Jan 11 with 2999 views | SpruceMoose |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:01 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
You have div listed people. |
Nah it's just a threat I like to wield. I love the scrimmage too much. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:07 - Jan 11 with 2992 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:57 - Jan 11 by SpruceMoose |
Nah it's just a threat I like to wield. I love the scrimmage too much. |
I use it as a naughty step for people who get a little too needy and start following me around like some sort of love sick teenager.
Although comedy creations like Wat Tyler, Rosa Luxemberg, Triggs (probably all the same troll) are permanently on there. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:08 - Jan 11 with 2990 views | SpruceMoose |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:07 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
I use it as a naughty step for people who get a little too needy and start following me around like some sort of love sick teenager.
Although comedy creations like Wat Tyler, Rosa Luxemberg, Triggs (probably all the same troll) are permanently on there. |
To be honest, I think I would just miss you too much if I implemented the use of the list!
 | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:11 - Jan 11 with 2984 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:08 - Jan 11 by SpruceMoose |
To be honest, I think I would just miss you too much if I implemented the use of the list!
|
Who said that?????? ;-) | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:12 - Jan 11 with 2987 views | eireblue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:49 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
Nope. You thought I had said the NHS. You even used quotation marks in your question.
Should a "No using NHS for political points" rule be applied to buses?
Sometimes it's more dignified to admit you misread something than keep digging even deeper. It will make you seem a little more human and less robot-like. People will also respect you more for it. [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 18:52]
|
Again no.
I do know how to use both CTRL+C and CTRL+V. I am actually getting pretty good at using the trackpad as well and highlighting text. Both are much quicker.
You can use quotes for many things GB. You prefer use of bold font to highlight stuff. My use of quotes was to highlight the rule I was asking about.
To be fair GB, it did take you a few attempts to answer a simple question, so on the digging question....
But to get into some of the content of the debate
I think both you and the article are in danger of making a correlation implying causation error. As is common in many such discussions.
The countries cited in the report linked to that article have higher per capita health spending.
It would also be an correlation/causation error to simply state that some countries have better outcomes because they spend more.
It is a fallacy to simply suppose the method of funding is somehow linked to outcomes.
It would also be equally simplistic to assume more spending would correspond to a certain degree of improvement in outcomes.
I also find it interesting that nonlinear mathematics are used for certain policies and government decisions, and not others. |  | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:18 - Jan 11 with 2978 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 18:23 - Jan 11 by imsureazzure |
If the NHS is not politicised there would be no requirement for the labour party. |
There wouldn't be an NHS if it wasn't for the Labour party. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:21 - Jan 11 with 2967 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:12 - Jan 11 by eireblue |
Again no.
I do know how to use both CTRL+C and CTRL+V. I am actually getting pretty good at using the trackpad as well and highlighting text. Both are much quicker.
You can use quotes for many things GB. You prefer use of bold font to highlight stuff. My use of quotes was to highlight the rule I was asking about.
To be fair GB, it did take you a few attempts to answer a simple question, so on the digging question....
But to get into some of the content of the debate
I think both you and the article are in danger of making a correlation implying causation error. As is common in many such discussions.
The countries cited in the report linked to that article have higher per capita health spending.
It would also be an correlation/causation error to simply state that some countries have better outcomes because they spend more.
It is a fallacy to simply suppose the method of funding is somehow linked to outcomes.
It would also be equally simplistic to assume more spending would correspond to a certain degree of improvement in outcomes.
I also find it interesting that nonlinear mathematics are used for certain policies and government decisions, and not others. |
Moving on. You agree that this debate needs to be had? That we have a national conversation about the future of health provision in the UK without the usual attacks of "You want a health service like the You-Ess-aY". That any criticism of the NHS is not a criticism of the dedicated health professionals who work in it. That it isn't "The envy of the world". That we can look at the systems our European neighbours have and get a better understanding of why they perform better than we do.
At the moment, as soon as somebody even mentions looking at alternative systems they are treated like a climate change denier.
No politician is brave enough to actually take this head on. So you have Labour clinging to the NHS with misguided romantic notions, chucking more and more money at it and you have the Tories, who are not as emotionally wed to the system throwing even more money at it, but nowhere near enough, knowing that just chucking money at the problem isnt solving it. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:22 - Jan 11 with 2968 views | amy73 |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:18 - Jan 11 by Pinewoodblue |
There wouldn't be an NHS if it wasn't for the Labour party. |
The Tories actually paved the way for NHS well before it was actually created. So it would have happened anyway. | | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:24 - Jan 11 with 2962 views | J2BLUE |
Put taxes up 1%. Politicians should be grown ups, negotiate it behind the scenes and present a united front when it is announced. |  |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:28 - Jan 11 with 2955 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:24 - Jan 11 by J2BLUE |
Put taxes up 1%. Politicians should be grown ups, negotiate it behind the scenes and present a united front when it is announced. |
Why throw money at an outdated system of healthcare that no other civilised country in the world models their own health provision on?
Have a read of this and ask yourself why we don't have a grown up debate about our health provision and still believe we should simply chuck money on a system that is suited to the last century?
https://healthpowerhouse.com/files/Why_the_Netherlands_ranks_the_best_in_Europea [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 19:32]
| |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:40 - Jan 11 with 2944 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:18 - Jan 11 by Pinewoodblue |
There wouldn't be an NHS if it wasn't for the Labour party. |
Or Winston Churchill even.
Edit. Just seen GB mentioned it first.
GB hasn’t learnt and has been suckered into another long’n. [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 19:42]
|  |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:44 - Jan 11 with 2937 views | J2BLUE |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:28 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
Why throw money at an outdated system of healthcare that no other civilised country in the world models their own health provision on?
Have a read of this and ask yourself why we don't have a grown up debate about our health provision and still believe we should simply chuck money on a system that is suited to the last century?
https://healthpowerhouse.com/files/Why_the_Netherlands_ranks_the_best_in_Europea [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 19:32]
|
I'll have a look at that later. What do you suggest for the country? | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:47 - Jan 11 with 2931 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:44 - Jan 11 by J2BLUE |
I'll have a look at that later. What do you suggest for the country? |
A national debate where we take the emotion out of the conversation and look at how and why survival rates, patient outcomes and satisfaction are better in most other EU countries than ours.
We pay for the NHS out of our taxes and NI contributions so it's not free yet are we getting our bang for our buck. Could an insurance based system with safety nets for those on low on no income as they do in Holland work?
I don't know. But find me a politician who is brave enough to instigate that debate and I'll listen to him or her. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:48 - Jan 11 with 2929 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:40 - Jan 11 by Lord_Lucan |
Or Winston Churchill even.
Edit. Just seen GB mentioned it first.
GB hasn’t learnt and has been suckered into another long’n. [Post edited 11 Jan 2018 19:42]
|
It's alright. I'm nearly finished at work and have little else to do in front of my computer. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:50 - Jan 11 with 2929 views | eireblue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:21 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
Moving on. You agree that this debate needs to be had? That we have a national conversation about the future of health provision in the UK without the usual attacks of "You want a health service like the You-Ess-aY". That any criticism of the NHS is not a criticism of the dedicated health professionals who work in it. That it isn't "The envy of the world". That we can look at the systems our European neighbours have and get a better understanding of why they perform better than we do.
At the moment, as soon as somebody even mentions looking at alternative systems they are treated like a climate change denier.
No politician is brave enough to actually take this head on. So you have Labour clinging to the NHS with misguided romantic notions, chucking more and more money at it and you have the Tories, who are not as emotionally wed to the system throwing even more money at it, but nowhere near enough, knowing that just chucking money at the problem isnt solving it. |
Well of course the debate needs to be had.
If it is to be depoliticized, one of the things is that the objectives of a health care system needed to be clearly defined, agreed and worked towards. And then only changed with the same degree of agreement and consensus based on impartial and well understood information.
"... problem isnt solving it." (That quote was brought to you by CTRL+C and CTRL+V  )
Solving what?
That isn't a facections question by the way.
( This is a facetious comment; note the proof of copy and paste in the single quote in my "isn't" vs your "isnt")
For instance:
People commonly state things along the lines of, people are getting older, that means more people with more health issues, therefore there is more strain on the NHS finances and resources.
However the demographics of a countries population will not be influenced by the health care system,......well unless it gets very bad. The amount of health care that needs doing won't changed. The amount of health care that will be needed over a projected time frame won't be changed.
So what is it you think needs solving? | | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:56 - Jan 11 with 2925 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:47 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
A national debate where we take the emotion out of the conversation and look at how and why survival rates, patient outcomes and satisfaction are better in most other EU countries than ours.
We pay for the NHS out of our taxes and NI contributions so it's not free yet are we getting our bang for our buck. Could an insurance based system with safety nets for those on low on no income as they do in Holland work?
I don't know. But find me a politician who is brave enough to instigate that debate and I'll listen to him or her. |
The problem with an insurance based system is will you let someone die if they have opted out.
We really need a compulsory £10 a month health tax.
Politicians would have got slaughtered in the past but I reckon if the chancellor stood up and said “Now look here, the NHS is bankrupt. We are going to introduce a £10 a month compulsory health fee and every penny will go to the NHS and you will get your teeth done for free as well from now”, I reckon it would go down well****
*** aside from the fools that jump on things for no other reason but to criticise. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:57 - Jan 11 with 2919 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:48 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
It's alright. I'm nearly finished at work and have little else to do in front of my computer. |
Have a cheeky 5 mins on tubegalore. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 20:07 - Jan 11 with 2913 views | eireblue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:56 - Jan 11 by Lord_Lucan |
The problem with an insurance based system is will you let someone die if they have opted out.
We really need a compulsory £10 a month health tax.
Politicians would have got slaughtered in the past but I reckon if the chancellor stood up and said “Now look here, the NHS is bankrupt. We are going to introduce a £10 a month compulsory health fee and every penny will go to the NHS and you will get your teeth done for free as well from now”, I reckon it would go down well****
*** aside from the fools that jump on things for no other reason but to criticise. |
Politicians tend not to be in favour of hypothecated taxes.
If they were, I agree why not just have a tax called something like the "The Tax on everybody in the Nation for Funding Health Related Stuff", but something more snappy obviously. And then just publish reports on it, to us, to demonstrate the ring fencing. | | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 20:21 - Jan 11 with 2904 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 20:07 - Jan 11 by eireblue |
Politicians tend not to be in favour of hypothecated taxes.
If they were, I agree why not just have a tax called something like the "The Tax on everybody in the Nation for Funding Health Related Stuff", but something more snappy obviously. And then just publish reports on it, to us, to demonstrate the ring fencing. |
I despair at our political system though.
Wouldn’t it be nice if May stood up and rattled off what I said and then Corbyn got up and said “Bloody good idea Theresa”.
If both sides of the house spent less time shouting at each other we might get something done. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 21:12 - Jan 11 with 2877 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 19:50 - Jan 11 by eireblue |
Well of course the debate needs to be had.
If it is to be depoliticized, one of the things is that the objectives of a health care system needed to be clearly defined, agreed and worked towards. And then only changed with the same degree of agreement and consensus based on impartial and well understood information.
"... problem isnt solving it." (That quote was brought to you by CTRL+C and CTRL+V )
Solving what?
That isn't a facections question by the way.
( This is a facetious comment; note the proof of copy and paste in the single quote in my "isn't" vs your "isnt")
For instance:
People commonly state things along the lines of, people are getting older, that means more people with more health issues, therefore there is more strain on the NHS finances and resources.
However the demographics of a countries population will not be influenced by the health care system,......well unless it gets very bad. The amount of health care that needs doing won't changed. The amount of health care that will be needed over a projected time frame won't be changed.
So what is it you think needs solving? |
Solving the problem of our cancer survival rates being ten years behind our European neighbours, the problem of postcode lotteries for certain treatments, the problem of how our health service is funded.
One thing I read in a report which I'll copy and paste:
If the UK’s breast cancer, prostate cancer, lung cancer and bowel cancer patients were treated in the Netherlands rather than on the NHS, more than 9,000 lives would be saved every year. If they were treated in Germany, more than 12,000 lives would be saved, and if they were treated in Belgium, more than 14,000 lives would be saved. A similar picture emerges for a range of other conditions, as well as for more holistic measures of health system performance. For example, the UK has one of the highest rates of avoidable deaths in Western Europe. If this rate were cut to the levels observed in Belgium, more than 10,000 lives would be saved every year. More than 13,000 lives would be saved if the rate were cut to Dutch levels. | |
| |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 21:29 - Jan 11 with 2876 views | eireblue |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 21:12 - Jan 11 by GlasgowBlue |
Solving the problem of our cancer survival rates being ten years behind our European neighbours, the problem of postcode lotteries for certain treatments, the problem of how our health service is funded.
One thing I read in a report which I'll copy and paste:
If the UK’s breast cancer, prostate cancer, lung cancer and bowel cancer patients were treated in the Netherlands rather than on the NHS, more than 9,000 lives would be saved every year. If they were treated in Germany, more than 12,000 lives would be saved, and if they were treated in Belgium, more than 14,000 lives would be saved. A similar picture emerges for a range of other conditions, as well as for more holistic measures of health system performance. For example, the UK has one of the highest rates of avoidable deaths in Western Europe. If this rate were cut to the levels observed in Belgium, more than 10,000 lives would be saved every year. More than 13,000 lives would be saved if the rate were cut to Dutch levels. |
"There is (and should be!) a significant positive relationship between money
and outcomes, but some countries are over-performers, and some are under are underachievers!"
NL spends more per capita than the UK.
NL is still an out performer, and the UK is a slight under-performer.
(However that conclusion that they draw is based on a linear view of the world not non-linear,but it could be useful)
A more interesting thing to look at is not a country that spends more and has better outcomes.
It would be more interesting to look at
Countries that spend more and have poorer outcomes.
Countries that spend the same per capita and see what their outcomes are.
Using NL as an example does not prove that a different system is required.
It shows a different system with a different demographic spending more money has better outcomes.
"Dutch healthcare:
Not cheap, but still
good value for money!" | | | |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 21:36 - Jan 11 with 2863 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The NHS is in the best state of its life, so why are Labour attacking it? on 21:29 - Jan 11 by eireblue |
"There is (and should be!) a significant positive relationship between money
and outcomes, but some countries are over-performers, and some are under are underachievers!"
NL spends more per capita than the UK.
NL is still an out performer, and the UK is a slight under-performer.
(However that conclusion that they draw is based on a linear view of the world not non-linear,but it could be useful)
A more interesting thing to look at is not a country that spends more and has better outcomes.
It would be more interesting to look at
Countries that spend more and have poorer outcomes.
Countries that spend the same per capita and see what their outcomes are.
Using NL as an example does not prove that a different system is required.
It shows a different system with a different demographic spending more money has better outcomes.
"Dutch healthcare:
Not cheap, but still
good value for money!" |
To summarise.
In Holland you can mess yourself up and then get saved.
I love that country. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
