| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:30 - Mar 5 with 1189 views | DJR |
They'll be happy to hear that the 2p cut in NI contributions will benefit them much more than those further down the income scale. And London and the South East will gain the most.
As it is, pledges in the past not to increase income tax have in the past led to increases in NI to get round this, so it will be interesting to see whether some of the cuts might be reversed after the election when the S hits the fan, even though that would be difficult to do politically.
[Post edited 5 Mar 13:42]
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:32 - Mar 5 with 1168 views | chicoazul |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:23 - Mar 5 by Simonds92 |
74k is a decent household income if you bought your house for 50p. If you purchased your house in the past few years, its not enough to be able to live off. |
This is precisely the point (or rather one of many) but so many TWTDers stick their fingers in their ears over this and would rather indulge in class warfare with the wrong people. |  |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:32 - Mar 5 with 1165 views | nrb1985 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 12:10 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
All true. But many have to get by on considerably less than what he's complaining about.
Plus one wonders if they have a house full of entertainment technology (and the associated subscriptions), go on foreign holidays, eat out/takeway/delivery and other luxuries which eat into their funds. Those things are nice, but hardly breadline essentials. There's a wide gulf between "not being able to live the comfortable life you wanted" and "not knowing if you can pay the rent and feed yourself". |
"one wonders if they have a house full of entertainment technology (and the associated subscriptions), go on foreign holidays, eat out/takeway/delivery and other luxuries which eat into their funds"
Dreadful lazy stereotyping. Are you Jacob Rees Mogg? |  | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:33 - Mar 5 with 1158 views | DanTheMan |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:30 - Mar 5 by DJR |
They'll be happy to hear that the 2p cut in NI contributions will benefit them much more than those further down the income scale. And London and the South East will gain the most.
As it is, pledges in the past not to increase income tax have in the past led to increases in NI to get round this, so it will be interesting to see whether some of the cuts might be reversed after the election when the S hits the fan, even though that would be difficult to do politically.
[Post edited 5 Mar 13:42]
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Doesn't seem to be at all fair. Thankfully, I think folks my age aren't going to be bought this cheaply after all the other stuff they've done other the past 10 or so years.
People won't feel much better off anyway given they keep freezing thresholds. And the trick of just constantly pushing back the rise in fuel duty is going to have to end at some point. [Post edited 5 Mar 13:35]
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:35 - Mar 5 with 1151 views | chicoazul |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:32 - Mar 5 by nrb1985 |
"one wonders if they have a house full of entertainment technology (and the associated subscriptions), go on foreign holidays, eat out/takeway/delivery and other luxuries which eat into their funds"
Dreadful lazy stereotyping. Are you Jacob Rees Mogg? |
Guthrum is one of the most conservative people on here. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:37 - Mar 5 with 1129 views | nrb1985 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:35 - Mar 5 by chicoazul |
Guthrum is one of the most conservative people on here. |
And it shows.
An absolutely appalling take on the current situation facing young people.
It should alarm everyone as well that the middle class in the UK is virtually being wiped out and that the average home in parts of the south east is now 10x the average salary. | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:49 - Mar 5 with 1085 views | itfcjoe |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 11:10 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
So he's whingeing about having "only" £300 spare money a month after all bills, food, leases and loans are paid? Feck me, some people don't know they're born. |
£300 to cover a family a month isn't a huge amount of money - one trip to the cinema eats up £50, the kids need a new pair of school shoes, they take them swimming, sign up for a club and it chews away.
I'm not sure it is a 'woe is me' post, but ultimately if you are earning that sort of money, you should be able to afford a nice quality of life - if people earning this can't afford to spend, how does the economy grow? |  |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:51 - Mar 5 with 1083 views | leitrimblue |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:32 - Mar 5 by chicoazul |
This is precisely the point (or rather one of many) but so many TWTDers stick their fingers in their ears over this and would rather indulge in class warfare with the wrong people. |
I love a bit of class warfare as much as the next man but think yer spot on about this.
People on £75, 000 a year with a mortgage, childcare expenses, student loans or whatever are not the super rich.
Targeting them as if they are is just letting the real elite off the hook. I'd like a UK where £75, 000 a year is some kinda basic minimum wage and we all strive to improve on that.
I'm no expert in this but perhaps it's time to start taxing people on their wealth rather then their earnings? |  | | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:52 - Mar 5 with 1065 views | bluelagos |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:37 - Mar 5 by nrb1985 |
And it shows.
An absolutely appalling take on the current situation facing young people.
It should alarm everyone as well that the middle class in the UK is virtually being wiped out and that the average home in parts of the south east is now 10x the average salary. |
Most of property owning middle England are happy to see high house prices, always have been, always will be.
Being generous, I think that's because for many their home (and it's high value) is their get out of jail card with respect to their pension age provisions and possible care home costs.
But it is of course incredibly damaging for young people who end up with near impossible tasks of getting their own home, instead paying ever increasing rents which benefits no one other than property investors.
The other massive issue is that our economy is so entwined with the housing market. Move up the housing ladder and it's new furniture / new kitchen etc. This has been the case for decades but isn't remotely sustainable in the long term.
10x average salary becomes 12? 15? 20?
Because that is what we have done in the past 50 years - moved from 3 to 10x average salaries. My parents bought a house for 3k ffs. Their grandkids will be looking at 100 times that. [Post edited 5 Mar 13:54]
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:57 - Mar 5 with 1036 views | longtimefan |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:29 - Mar 5 by DanTheMan |
"a student loan so its interest free"
Quick note, it's not interest free. As he's on plan 2 it'll be 7.7%. I would imagine he'll be in his 40s by the time he's finished paying that off.
I imagine his life will also be easier once he's on a pension as he won't have children or a mortgage. Of course, that assumes he's putting a load of additional money into his pension plan (which we're told to do) which means even less money coming in each month. He better hope the companies he works for our generous with their contributions, as most aren't. |
If it's anything like the projections I've done for my youngest and his 50K student debt (interest ~RPI+3%) it's extremely unlikely that he will pay it off. More likely to expire after 30 years with debt outstanding. | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:58 - Mar 5 with 1033 views | nrb1985 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:52 - Mar 5 by bluelagos |
Most of property owning middle England are happy to see high house prices, always have been, always will be.
Being generous, I think that's because for many their home (and it's high value) is their get out of jail card with respect to their pension age provisions and possible care home costs.
But it is of course incredibly damaging for young people who end up with near impossible tasks of getting their own home, instead paying ever increasing rents which benefits no one other than property investors.
The other massive issue is that our economy is so entwined with the housing market. Move up the housing ladder and it's new furniture / new kitchen etc. This has been the case for decades but isn't remotely sustainable in the long term.
10x average salary becomes 12? 15? 20?
Because that is what we have done in the past 50 years - moved from 3 to 10x average salaries. My parents bought a house for 3k ffs. Their grandkids will be looking at 100 times that. [Post edited 5 Mar 13:54]
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Yes but at least though these youngsters can go live abroad in a place offering them a better quality of life. You know like Switzerland, Scandinavia, Spain etc...oh, wait a moment.
Hmm, well, they also have opportunities like ERASMUS that Guthrum never had.
Oh, errm, well, errr...stop spending money on avocado lattes then, YOU DONT EVEN KNOW YOU'RE BORN. [Post edited 5 Mar 13:59]
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:01 - Mar 5 with 1007 views | DanTheMan |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:57 - Mar 5 by longtimefan |
If it's anything like the projections I've done for my youngest and his 50K student debt (interest ~RPI+3%) it's extremely unlikely that he will pay it off. More likely to expire after 30 years with debt outstanding. |
Similar to my wife, she's never going to pay it off. Slight tangent but Psychology is in a bizarre place where if you want to be one you have to have a doctorate despite there not being a good reason for this. All of the training could happen on the job over time. There is something like a 20% acceptance rate onto the courses so you go through this dumb process every single year in the hopes that you'll be one of the lucky ones.
At least mine is nearly paid off, 3 months to go... I was one of the lucky plan 1 ones. My sister barely paid anything, think she was done in a few years after graduating. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:09 - Mar 5 with 970 views | leitrimblue |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:01 - Mar 5 by DanTheMan |
Similar to my wife, she's never going to pay it off. Slight tangent but Psychology is in a bizarre place where if you want to be one you have to have a doctorate despite there not being a good reason for this. All of the training could happen on the job over time. There is something like a 20% acceptance rate onto the courses so you go through this dumb process every single year in the hopes that you'll be one of the lucky ones.
At least mine is nearly paid off, 3 months to go... I was one of the lucky plan 1 ones. My sister barely paid anything, think she was done in a few years after graduating. |
Do you still not have to pay it if you leave the country shortly after graduation? | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:10 - Mar 5 with 971 views | geg1992 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:23 - Mar 5 by Simonds92 |
74k is a decent household income if you bought your house for 50p. If you purchased your house in the past few years, its not enough to be able to live off. |
Huh? My wife and I earn way less than this, like a lot less as she's working limited hours whilst she recovers from her illness.
We're in the process of buying a house and will have enough to live off so long as we don't lose our jobs!
74k and we would be laughing. That's more than enough to live off. |  |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:13 - Mar 5 with 959 views | OldFart71 |
Everything is relevant. Earn £20,000 you have to live to £20,000. Partly why I suppose you get MP's claiming they can't live on £118,000 a year. Where I, say shop at Aldi and Lidl they'll shop at Waitrose and M&S. Where I buy a bottle of wine for £8 they'll pay £25 or £30 or more. However I do spend good money on clothes, but you can shop around. I have bought some superb clothes from charity shops and online auction sites for a fraction of the original price. Such as Loake brogues retailing at around £200 for £69. A decent pair of jeans, brand new with the tags still on for £6. I recently bought a Seiko Coutura Solar watch with all paperwork, box, instructions, retail around £365 for £140. When and if I buy new shoes it flags up on my PC if they are cheaper elsewhere. There are so many ways to cut back, it's just that it takes time and thought. | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:13 - Mar 5 with 958 views | itfcjoe |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:52 - Mar 5 by bluelagos |
Most of property owning middle England are happy to see high house prices, always have been, always will be.
Being generous, I think that's because for many their home (and it's high value) is their get out of jail card with respect to their pension age provisions and possible care home costs.
But it is of course incredibly damaging for young people who end up with near impossible tasks of getting their own home, instead paying ever increasing rents which benefits no one other than property investors.
The other massive issue is that our economy is so entwined with the housing market. Move up the housing ladder and it's new furniture / new kitchen etc. This has been the case for decades but isn't remotely sustainable in the long term.
10x average salary becomes 12? 15? 20?
Because that is what we have done in the past 50 years - moved from 3 to 10x average salaries. My parents bought a house for 3k ffs. Their grandkids will be looking at 100 times that. [Post edited 5 Mar 13:54]
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These figures aren't exact but think close enough - I bought my first house, a 3 bed end terrace with a garage in 2008 for £151k, then sold it for £197k in 2014, bought a 5/6 bed bungalow for £295k and was fortunate to have help (some from friends, work contacts and family) to spend ~£100k doing it up when it should have been about £150k so effectively my house has cost me £400k.
Now, my old 3 bed end terrace is on the market for £300k, nothing has been done to it, it's still a very nice starter home but at that price what starters can afford that? At the time £151k felt a struggle when me and my wife had £25k deposit and were earning just over £40k between us.
The £400k we've spent on our current house, plus prob another £20k since moving in, sees us with masses of equity in it.....but we can't really borrow more because of our earnings so couldn't possibly think about moving up to another house up the chain.
But if we didn't have the expertise, the help and the opportunity to do a big project on our house we'd be maxed out on a house worth around £400k - which in many places really doesn't get you a lot.....a 3 bed semi detatched bungalow on my road is for sale for £420k currently which floor space wise is literally less than half of ours. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:14 - Mar 5 with 956 views | DanTheMan |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:09 - Mar 5 by leitrimblue |
Do you still not have to pay it if you leave the country shortly after graduation? |
My understanding is you've always had to pay it off if you move abroad. Think you can get taxed in a similar way to how PAYE works (percentage of earnings) or you pay a minimum monthly rate.
That could work out with you paying less of it back if you were ever unlikely to pay it off in the first place by only putting in the monthly minimum and just continuing until it expires. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:36 - Mar 5 with 907 views | OldFart71 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 12:53 - Mar 5 by noggin |
The poor can't get much poorer (can they?), the middle earners are losing spending power, while the rich are increasing theirs. There seems to be a pattern forming. |
Don't think there's a pattern forming, it's been formed for a long time. Go back to 2008, the banking crisis. Bought about by British banks buying toxic loans from the US leading to the austerity years under Osborne. Ever since then the gap between rich and poor has developed into a chasm. Due to the pandemic where the Government were guilty of waste on a grand scale. Add to that 100 million spent by the Blair Government and carried on by the Tories covering up the Post Office scandal. All these things have lead to us now paying taxes at the highest level since WW2 and whatever Hunt does tomorrow it will only give a little back of what he is taking and cuts in N.I. or income take will benefit the better paid more than low income earners. | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:41 - Mar 5 with 895 views | Guthrum |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:32 - Mar 5 by nrb1985 |
"one wonders if they have a house full of entertainment technology (and the associated subscriptions), go on foreign holidays, eat out/takeway/delivery and other luxuries which eat into their funds"
Dreadful lazy stereotyping. Are you Jacob Rees Mogg? |
What's lazy about it? Do you not see the streets filled with delivery vans, the size of Amazon warehouses? Who do you suppose is buying all of that stuff, just the rich?
People want nice things, it's only natural. Consumerism has been a thing for so long that we have become used to the expectation of having them. Ideas of what it means to be "badly off" have shifted. Is it unreasonable to explore exactly what luxuries they are allowing themselves?
We're not talking about people on minimum wage, or benefits, but a family where one partner has been able afford not to work and they have a household income more than 50% greater than the national average. |  |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:52 - Mar 5 with 870 views | geg1992 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:41 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
What's lazy about it? Do you not see the streets filled with delivery vans, the size of Amazon warehouses? Who do you suppose is buying all of that stuff, just the rich?
People want nice things, it's only natural. Consumerism has been a thing for so long that we have become used to the expectation of having them. Ideas of what it means to be "badly off" have shifted. Is it unreasonable to explore exactly what luxuries they are allowing themselves?
We're not talking about people on minimum wage, or benefits, but a family where one partner has been able afford not to work and they have a household income more than 50% greater than the national average. |
I think this more reflects the trends of people ordering online rather than going into the high street which is dying quickly. Cheaper to order online as don't have to pay parking and much more convenient etc. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:56 - Mar 5 with 851 views | Guthrum |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:37 - Mar 5 by nrb1985 |
And it shows.
An absolutely appalling take on the current situation facing young people.
It should alarm everyone as well that the middle class in the UK is virtually being wiped out and that the average home in parts of the south east is now 10x the average salary. |
So what do you do, increase salaries by five times? The entire financial situation is up the spout, not just for the middle classes. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:01 - Mar 5 with 843 views | OldFart71 |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:13 - Mar 5 by itfcjoe |
These figures aren't exact but think close enough - I bought my first house, a 3 bed end terrace with a garage in 2008 for £151k, then sold it for £197k in 2014, bought a 5/6 bed bungalow for £295k and was fortunate to have help (some from friends, work contacts and family) to spend ~£100k doing it up when it should have been about £150k so effectively my house has cost me £400k.
Now, my old 3 bed end terrace is on the market for £300k, nothing has been done to it, it's still a very nice starter home but at that price what starters can afford that? At the time £151k felt a struggle when me and my wife had £25k deposit and were earning just over £40k between us.
The £400k we've spent on our current house, plus prob another £20k since moving in, sees us with masses of equity in it.....but we can't really borrow more because of our earnings so couldn't possibly think about moving up to another house up the chain.
But if we didn't have the expertise, the help and the opportunity to do a big project on our house we'd be maxed out on a house worth around £400k - which in many places really doesn't get you a lot.....a 3 bed semi detatched bungalow on my road is for sale for £420k currently which floor space wise is literally less than half of ours. |
My examples are of house prices v wages. In 2002 I worked at a paint factory, my wage then for a day job 8-4.30 paid £21,000 a year. The same factory in 2024 is paying around £24-£25,000 for shift workers 6-2, 2-10. A difference of £4,000. Also in 2002 I sold my 3 bed detached house for £131,000. The same house is now valued at between £315-£345,000. Take an average of sat £330,000 you have an increase of £200,000. The main reason why families struggle today as wages have in now way keep pace with house prices. | | | |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:08 - Mar 5 with 836 views | DanTheMan |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:56 - Mar 5 by Guthrum |
So what do you do, increase salaries by five times? The entire financial situation is up the spout, not just for the middle classes. |
Unlikely that salaries will increase that much as you point out.
House prices need to stagnate or drop, which will require building quite a lot of them, so we're probably talking about the Government stepping in to do it.
If you listen to some people, taking money off the very wealthy so they don't hoover up all the stock is another option.
Unfortunately, as I think it was Lagos who pointed out, we've geared some of our economy towards house prices constantly increasing in value over time to pay for social care. [Post edited 5 Mar 15:09]
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:10 - Mar 5 with 822 views | Guthrum |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:52 - Mar 5 by geg1992 |
I think this more reflects the trends of people ordering online rather than going into the high street which is dying quickly. Cheaper to order online as don't have to pay parking and much more convenient etc. |
I just look at the amount of stuff people have in their houses nowadays compared with when I was a child (even down to clothes and furnishings). The tech didn't exist, but even a TV, once we got one, was rented.
I don't think it's a bad thing to have a better standard of living. I don't hark back to the more spartan '70s as a wonderful time. It's just that for decades we've been electing governments determined to protect house prices (as one of the few "growth" areas more recently) and now find ourselves in a muddle.
I missed out 25 years ago on any chance to get on the property ladder, with the explosion in prices about that time. So I empathise with those stuck in rental for ever.
However, I look at how frugally I've always had to live and find these complaints from those earning vastly more ring slightly hollow. | |
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| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:11 - Mar 5 with 820 views | itfcjoe |
| Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:01 - Mar 5 by OldFart71 |
My examples are of house prices v wages. In 2002 I worked at a paint factory, my wage then for a day job 8-4.30 paid £21,000 a year. The same factory in 2024 is paying around £24-£25,000 for shift workers 6-2, 2-10. A difference of £4,000. Also in 2002 I sold my 3 bed detached house for £131,000. The same house is now valued at between £315-£345,000. Take an average of sat £330,000 you have an increase of £200,000. The main reason why families struggle today as wages have in now way keep pace with house prices. |
Great examples that really show just how difficult getting on the ladder is now....not sure how anyone does it without help these days | |
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