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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:08 - Mar 5 by DanTheMan
Unlikely that salaries will increase that much as you point out.
House prices need to stagnate or drop, which will require building quite a lot of them, so we're probably talking about the Government stepping in to do it.
If you listen to some people, taking money off the very wealthy so they don't hoover up all the stock is another option.
Unfortunately, as I think it was Lagos who pointed out, we've geared some of our economy towards house prices constantly increasing in value over time to pay for social care.
[Post edited 5 Mar 15:09]
The root problem with a lot of modern economics is the necessity for constant "growth", which often translates merely into the same stuff getting more expensive - inflation.
If there really is a desire to see the near-universal availability of home ownership, then we need to build more affordable homes and subsidise people to get on the ladder. Maybe government-underwritten mortgages.
But that would also destroy the private rental market, which is a lot of people's pensions. A leave those who borrowed at the peak of the market with severely reduced or negative equity.
Much immediate fault has to lie with Truss and Kwarteng, their ill-advised experiment which blew the lid off interest rates and lost any time available to make a gentler adjustment.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:01 - Mar 5 by OldFart71
My examples are of house prices v wages. In 2002 I worked at a paint factory, my wage then for a day job 8-4.30 paid £21,000 a year. The same factory in 2024 is paying around £24-£25,000 for shift workers 6-2, 2-10. A difference of £4,000. Also in 2002 I sold my 3 bed detached house for £131,000. The same house is now valued at between £315-£345,000. Take an average of sat £330,000 you have an increase of £200,000. The main reason why families struggle today as wages have in now way keep pace with house prices.
A perfect t example of what we are talking about. A normal person earning a normal salary could afford to buy a normal house in a normal area and live a normal life. Get married have children enjoy reasonable work stability a decent standard of living free education et al. Now many people simply can’t. It’s completely deranged. But people like Guthrum say hey look at all these Amazon vans these people don’t know they’re born as if that’s some sort of argument for the status quo, without realising they are falling into the elephant trap under their nose. People on 75k are all of us. It’s the people on 7.5m a year rentier income on whom we ought to turn our guns.
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:41 - Mar 5 by Guthrum
What's lazy about it? Do you not see the streets filled with delivery vans, the size of Amazon warehouses? Who do you suppose is buying all of that stuff, just the rich?
People want nice things, it's only natural. Consumerism has been a thing for so long that we have become used to the expectation of having them. Ideas of what it means to be "badly off" have shifted. Is it unreasonable to explore exactly what luxuries they are allowing themselves?
We're not talking about people on minimum wage, or benefits, but a family where one partner has been able afford not to work and they have a household income more than 50% greater than the national average.
I feel bad even dignifying this with a response, it's been debunked that many times over.
The average house price in London and SE is now around 10 x the average salary. I don't know how old you are but judging from your dreadful rhetoric I assume you're a boomer so we can loosely say that maybe when you were growing up it was 3x the average salary.
I believe on average now, it would take saving £250 a month for 15 - 20 years in London & SE to be able to afford a deposit. When we have ridiculous housing and rental laws in this country and London in particular, utility bills going through the roof and inflation that's 50% higher than in Europe - how do you expect anyone to save that when you add in rents are going up 17% yoy?
Wtf do you think a few less avocado eggs and Netflix a week is going to do about this generational structural imbalances?
[Post edited 5 Mar 15:31]
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:30 - Mar 5 with 1524 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:01 - Mar 5 by OldFart71
My examples are of house prices v wages. In 2002 I worked at a paint factory, my wage then for a day job 8-4.30 paid £21,000 a year. The same factory in 2024 is paying around £24-£25,000 for shift workers 6-2, 2-10. A difference of £4,000. Also in 2002 I sold my 3 bed detached house for £131,000. The same house is now valued at between £315-£345,000. Take an average of sat £330,000 you have an increase of £200,000. The main reason why families struggle today as wages have in now way keep pace with house prices.
It's not just house prices that wages haven't kept price with.
Median weekly pay for full-time employees in the UK was £682 at April 2023. After adjusting for inflation (to obtain figures “in real terms”), this is 8% lower than in 2008.
And given that median real wages grew consistently by around 2 per cent per year from 1980 to the early 2000s, the gap between where they are now and where they would have been if that growth rate had been maintained is enormous. Indeed, had wages carried on growing at that rate we presumably would not have required the levels of taxation we are now seeing just to keep the nation's finances above water.
And it is younger people, many saddled with student loans or in precarious employment, who are bearing the brunt.
But in many ways, we appear to be following a trend which has been going on in the US for decades.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:58 - Mar 5 by nrb1985
Yes but at least though these youngsters can go live abroad in a place offering them a better quality of life. You know like Switzerland, Scandinavia, Spain etc...oh, wait a moment.
Hmm, well, they also have opportunities like ERASMUS that Guthrum never had.
Oh, errm, well, errr...stop spending money on avocado lattes then, YOU DONT EVEN KNOW YOU'RE BORN.
[Post edited 5 Mar 13:59]
Erasmus didn't exist when I was young. Nor, for most of my life, have I been able to afford foreign travel. Neither did I vote for Brexit.
But plenty of people do go to Starbucks etc. and pay £4 for coffee. Even if that's only once a week, that's £200 a year which could spend on something else. That's just the economic choices of being actually skint.
This thread has been an insight into how society is set up for this sort of thing.
Article posted, showing how decent incomes don't even cut it right now. Smattering of "they should be so lucky" and "in my day".
The shocking truth is here beneath it all - we are almost all of us suffering under a ridiculous cost of living problem which far from being addressed, is actively being stretched ever further for the economic good of the top 0.1%. And instead of lighting pitchforks, here we are expecting folks who have been shat on to think themselves lucky for the new hat.
[Post edited 5 Mar 15:45]
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:39 - Mar 5 with 1495 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:51 - Mar 5 by leitrimblue
I love a bit of class warfare as much as the next man but think yer spot on about this. People on £75, 000 a year with a mortgage, childcare expenses, student loans or whatever are not the super rich.
Targeting them as if they are is just letting the real elite off the hook. I'd like a UK where £75, 000 a year is some kinda basic minimum wage and we all strive to improve on that.
I'm no expert in this but perhaps it's time to start taxing people on their wealth rather then their earnings?
"I'm no expert in this but perhaps it's time to start taxing people on their wealth rather then their earnings?"
This. Money should be circulating, not sitting in offshore accounts.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:22 - Mar 5 by chicoazul
A perfect t example of what we are talking about. A normal person earning a normal salary could afford to buy a normal house in a normal area and live a normal life. Get married have children enjoy reasonable work stability a decent standard of living free education et al. Now many people simply can’t. It’s completely deranged. But people like Guthrum say hey look at all these Amazon vans these people don’t know they’re born as if that’s some sort of argument for the status quo, without realising they are falling into the elephant trap under their nose. People on 75k are all of us. It’s the people on 7.5m a year rentier income on whom we ought to turn our guns.
People on £75k are not all of us. An awful lot of people are on much less than that and could not even contemplate buying a house, have not been able to for decades already. Find the idea of having £300 left over at the end of the month a pipe-dream.
But people have only just started to care when those who are - or should be - comfortably off get squeezed a bit.
No problem with going after those you mention, or other means to reduce house prices for the young (more starter homes, subsidisation, help with deposits, part-buy schemes). I just find it slightly galling that those living on ghood incomes are suddenly talking like they can't put bread on the table.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:39 - Mar 5 by Guthrum
People on £75k are not all of us. An awful lot of people are on much less than that and could not even contemplate buying a house, have not been able to for decades already. Find the idea of having £300 left over at the end of the month a pipe-dream.
But people have only just started to care when those who are - or should be - comfortably off get squeezed a bit.
No problem with going after those you mention, or other means to reduce house prices for the young (more starter homes, subsidisation, help with deposits, part-buy schemes). I just find it slightly galling that those living on ghood incomes are suddenly talking like they can't put bread on the table.
That's not how I read it.
How I read it is more like "good income still not enough to combat the cost of living crisis"
Don't get goaded into the race to the bottom
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:45 - Mar 5 with 1436 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:08 - Mar 5 by JakeITFC
We are in a not dissimilar position and my overall takeaway is I don't know how people on genuine low incomes are able to survive. Running a house with kids on a couple of average salaries must be incredibly difficult right now - there is no respite from how expensive the mortgage/rent is, household bills, council tax increasing, supermarket shopping etc.
I completely emphasise with someone reading the article above and thinking that they'd kill for £75k gross a year, but as the guy alludes to for him it's just a slightly better way of surviving.
(Just to be clear this is not a woe is me post but a fuccking hell something has got to change here or the country is going to fall apart one).
The sentiment at the start of your second paragraph is what prompted my (probably ill-advised) outburst. I know what it's like to live on a quarter of that and the economies I have to make, the choices such as between saving for next month's rent and fixing the car so I can carry on working.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:45 - Mar 5 by Guthrum
The sentiment at the start of your second paragraph is what prompted my (probably ill-advised) outburst. I know what it's like to live on a quarter of that and the economies I have to make, the choices such as between saving for next month's rent and fixing the car so I can carry on working.
I can see both sides of this one and in fairness to you, think you're bang on about consumerism.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:28 - Mar 5 by nrb1985
I feel bad even dignifying this with a response, it's been debunked that many times over.
The average house price in London and SE is now around 10 x the average salary. I don't know how old you are but judging from your dreadful rhetoric I assume you're a boomer so we can loosely say that maybe when you were growing up it was 3x the average salary.
I believe on average now, it would take saving £250 a month for 15 - 20 years in London & SE to be able to afford a deposit. When we have ridiculous housing and rental laws in this country and London in particular, utility bills going through the roof and inflation that's 50% higher than in Europe - how do you expect anyone to save that when you add in rents are going up 17% yoy?
Wtf do you think a few less avocado eggs and Netflix a week is going to do about this generational structural imbalances?
[Post edited 5 Mar 15:31]
Yes, I agree. It is already impossible for most people to get on the property ladder. Or, if they do, they're going to be lumbered with huge mortgages at high levels of interest (thanks Truss). The rental market (I rent, not own) is also ridiculous, especially in sought-after places like London and Manchester.
But the original article wasn't talking about being able to buy a property, but sustaining their already home-owning lifestyle with the income they're on. Small lifestyle changes can make a difference to that. Especially if they're already running a surplus.
I have no good ideas on what to do about all this, as it's already been allowed to vastly overheat. Action should have been taken 20 years ago. Lots of people are going to lose out whatever is done, through negative equity and the like. Governments don't want to intervene as it would lose them votes, cost money and possibly damage the economy. We're stuck.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:45 - Mar 5 by Guthrum
The sentiment at the start of your second paragraph is what prompted my (probably ill-advised) outburst. I know what it's like to live on a quarter of that and the economies I have to make, the choices such as between saving for next month's rent and fixing the car so I can carry on working.
Yeah, there is no mistaking that the person in the article is a long way from the breadline (and in a nice house with a new car) and will have probably never faced that feeling in a supermarket where you aren't sure whether your debit card will work this time at the till.
What is true however is that they probably have seen the buffer from that scenario significantly reduce - and whilst sympathy isn't particularly going to be particularly fast to come forward from the 90% of earners below them, an earner in the top 10% of the country having to penny pinch (when combined with the highest taxation ever, crumbling public services etc.) is the sign of a broken system. The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here.
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:11 - Mar 5 with 1340 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:03 - Mar 5 by JakeITFC
Yeah, there is no mistaking that the person in the article is a long way from the breadline (and in a nice house with a new car) and will have probably never faced that feeling in a supermarket where you aren't sure whether your debit card will work this time at the till.
What is true however is that they probably have seen the buffer from that scenario significantly reduce - and whilst sympathy isn't particularly going to be particularly fast to come forward from the 90% of earners below them, an earner in the top 10% of the country having to penny pinch (when combined with the highest taxation ever, crumbling public services etc.) is the sign of a broken system. The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here.
"The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here."
I'm no economist, but if we want a better standard of living for the poorest, doesn't that inevitably mean less for the well off? And not just to 1% but that 10% you mention?
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:03 - Mar 5 by JakeITFC
Yeah, there is no mistaking that the person in the article is a long way from the breadline (and in a nice house with a new car) and will have probably never faced that feeling in a supermarket where you aren't sure whether your debit card will work this time at the till.
What is true however is that they probably have seen the buffer from that scenario significantly reduce - and whilst sympathy isn't particularly going to be particularly fast to come forward from the 90% of earners below them, an earner in the top 10% of the country having to penny pinch (when combined with the highest taxation ever, crumbling public services etc.) is the sign of a broken system. The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here.
Mortgage rate rises alone have seriously squeezed mid-high earners. The base rate has gone from 0.1% to 5.25% in the space of 3 and a bit years. Many people have £200k+ mortgages and you've got a huge number of people that from one mortgage deal to the next have seen a £500-£800 a month increase. You cannot legislate for those sort of mortgage rate rises.
[Post edited 5 Mar 16:25]
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:26 - Mar 5 with 1296 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:45 - Mar 5 by Guthrum
The sentiment at the start of your second paragraph is what prompted my (probably ill-advised) outburst. I know what it's like to live on a quarter of that and the economies I have to make, the choices such as between saving for next month's rent and fixing the car so I can carry on working.
I think the thing that annoyed me about Scott was his complaining about not being able to put aside money for the kids.
He's 28, for God's sake!
And I thought the article was an unusual one for the Guardian in the sense that it appeared to be promoting cuts in taxation as a solution, which is the last thing needed at the moment.
[Post edited 5 Mar 16:27]
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:33 - Mar 5 with 1272 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:11 - Mar 5 by giant_stow
"The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here."
I'm no economist, but if we want a better standard of living for the poorest, doesn't that inevitably mean less for the well off? And not just to 1% but that 10% you mention?
Well at the moment you’re getting neither, just a race to the bottom.
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:42 - Mar 5 with 1250 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:11 - Mar 5 by giant_stow
"The mid-to-high earners shouldn't be the enemy here."
I'm no economist, but if we want a better standard of living for the poorest, doesn't that inevitably mean less for the well off? And not just to 1% but that 10% you mention?
No, it really doesn't. Everyone benefits from things being more affordable.
Taking everything away from the wealthy is pointless (a diminishing resource). What's necessary is to skim off more of their surplus to benefit everybody. The 10% have a lot less surplus than the 1%, so should have to give less.
But what the extra is spent on will benefit them proportionally more. If a family with young children earning £50k pays £1k more in tax (2% extra) than they are now, but in return gets free childcare on Social Services, they've probably saved themselves five or ten times that.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 16:33 - Mar 5 by JakeITFC
Well at the moment you’re getting neither, just a race to the bottom.
Forgive me - this isn't aimed at you or your usage , but "a race to the bottom" is often a phrase used by those at or near the top with something to protect. Having said that, its fair in this instance!
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:30 - Mar 5 by DJR
It's not just house prices that wages haven't kept price with.
Median weekly pay for full-time employees in the UK was £682 at April 2023. After adjusting for inflation (to obtain figures “in real terms”), this is 8% lower than in 2008.
And given that median real wages grew consistently by around 2 per cent per year from 1980 to the early 2000s, the gap between where they are now and where they would have been if that growth rate had been maintained is enormous. Indeed, had wages carried on growing at that rate we presumably would not have required the levels of taxation we are now seeing just to keep the nation's finances above water.
And it is younger people, many saddled with student loans or in precarious employment, who are bearing the brunt.
But in many ways, we appear to be following a trend which has been going on in the US for decades.
This, from the Guardian, emphasises the point I was making on wages.
Despite the Office for Budget Responsibility reducing its forecast for inflation, real average wages are only set to regain their 2008 levels in 2026, a staggering near-two lost decades of pay growth. Had pay instead continued along its pre-financial crisis path over this period, the average worker in 2023 would have been around £14,000 better off.
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Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:49 - Mar 7 with 931 views
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 15:39 - Mar 5 by noggin
"I'm no expert in this but perhaps it's time to start taxing people on their wealth rather then their earnings?"
This. Money should be circulating, not sitting in offshore accounts.
What about the money in people's homes? Should that be taxed? Pensions? ISAs?
Difficult to define what is taxable and what's not. There has to be a better way of doing this but a wealth tax I suspect would end up putting a lot of people in debt (how do low incomers raise money to pay annual tax? Pensioners?)
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 13:49 - Mar 7 by mutters
What about the money in people's homes? Should that be taxed? Pensions? ISAs?
Difficult to define what is taxable and what's not. There has to be a better way of doing this but a wealth tax I suspect would end up putting a lot of people in debt (how do low incomers raise money to pay annual tax? Pensioners?)
I will keep banging this drum, but a simple start would be making capital gains tax work like income tax. I don't understand why it's not.
The fact that Sunak paid less in tax as a percentage on his massive earnings than someone on the lowest band is just bonkers.
Patriotic Millionaries have a bunch of these sorts of policy suggestions. The mega-wealthy did incredibly well out of COVID and all the money pumped into the economy and if we don't claw it back we're going to entrench the inequality.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 14:01 - Mar 7 by DanTheMan
I will keep banging this drum, but a simple start would be making capital gains tax work like income tax. I don't understand why it's not.
The fact that Sunak paid less in tax as a percentage on his massive earnings than someone on the lowest band is just bonkers.
Patriotic Millionaries have a bunch of these sorts of policy suggestions. The mega-wealthy did incredibly well out of COVID and all the money pumped into the economy and if we don't claw it back we're going to entrench the inequality.
It's always peeved me off that the richer you get the more options you have to avoid tax. I was talking to my accountant friend the other day about what could be done to ensure that the average person pays less tax. Is there a way to set-up a company/entity for every person who could then get paid through that said company so they can take advantage of the tax breaks that these types of entities get?
He basically said no, as if there was the rich would have shut it down.
As for your thought on Captial Gains, there are so many different tax rates for different investment vehicles that it all needs simplifying. Entrepreneurs' Relief for example allows a business to pay less CGT than normal.
Got to feel sorry for middle england on 11:25 - Mar 5 by bluelagos
Mixed feelings tbh. Plenty of youngsters have gone to Uni / taken on huge debts / built a career in a profession and due to the cost of housing are now facing nothing more than a slog to keep their heads above water.
Of course some are entitled little pricks too - but that doesn't get away from the fact that financially youngsters have a really hard time of it if they want to get a half decent home for a young family. Certainly far harder than when I graduated.
The problem is most youngster' don't start earning a living until they 22/23
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