| Football has an officiating problem 23:22 - Nov 7 with 3903 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Firstly I don’t like to blame the refs, we needed to see that out.
However, just a general observation. Spurs Chelsea compared to that tonight is like watching two different sports. VAR riddled craziness and then Town on the wrong end of the whistle. There has to be some kind of in between system here.
I think having a certain amount of challenges a game (maybe 2 per team) on decisions such as goals against, red card offenses or infringements in the box. The standard of referring is poor and there should be the technology and money in the champ to improve it.
Offside rule needs looking at as well when players are level to whether they are truly gaining an advantage. |  | | |  |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:43 - Nov 7 with 2775 views | Garv |
Giving teams 'challenges' is the new obsession, and it smacks of desperately trying to improve VAR. It won't, it'll confuse things even more. It's one more thing for officials to have to think about and it'll slow the game down even more. It's a bad idea, so I expect to see it from the start of next season.
More technology won't improve refereeing. It'll make it worse if anything. The longer everyone tries to find perfection while constantly looking at subjective decisions and complaining about 'consistency' for some bizarre reason, the whole system will continue to fall flat on its arse.
We could have got one or two penalties tonight, but we didn't. Hirst got a kick but it didn't knock him over, he had to fall over to make it actually look like a foul. The handball was more obvious, but to be frank fewer penalties in the sport isn't a bad thing.
I agree the offside law should change though. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 23:49 - Nov 7 with 2746 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:43 - Nov 7 by Garv |
Giving teams 'challenges' is the new obsession, and it smacks of desperately trying to improve VAR. It won't, it'll confuse things even more. It's one more thing for officials to have to think about and it'll slow the game down even more. It's a bad idea, so I expect to see it from the start of next season.
More technology won't improve refereeing. It'll make it worse if anything. The longer everyone tries to find perfection while constantly looking at subjective decisions and complaining about 'consistency' for some bizarre reason, the whole system will continue to fall flat on its arse.
We could have got one or two penalties tonight, but we didn't. Hirst got a kick but it didn't knock him over, he had to fall over to make it actually look like a foul. The handball was more obvious, but to be frank fewer penalties in the sport isn't a bad thing.
I agree the offside law should change though. |
It just works quite well in another sport I’m passionate about but you might be right. VAR isn’t making things an awful lot better though. | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:51 - Nov 7 with 2737 views | Whos_blue |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:43 - Nov 7 by Garv |
Giving teams 'challenges' is the new obsession, and it smacks of desperately trying to improve VAR. It won't, it'll confuse things even more. It's one more thing for officials to have to think about and it'll slow the game down even more. It's a bad idea, so I expect to see it from the start of next season.
More technology won't improve refereeing. It'll make it worse if anything. The longer everyone tries to find perfection while constantly looking at subjective decisions and complaining about 'consistency' for some bizarre reason, the whole system will continue to fall flat on its arse.
We could have got one or two penalties tonight, but we didn't. Hirst got a kick but it didn't knock him over, he had to fall over to make it actually look like a foul. The handball was more obvious, but to be frank fewer penalties in the sport isn't a bad thing.
I agree the offside law should change though. |
I'm not a fan of VAR, but it doesn't seem as if it's not going away anytime soon, so maybe the "challenges" is worth exploring?
I won't compare the games of cricket and football but teams are allowed 3 challenges per innings and it has become integral to the game.
The officials rarely intervene otherwise.
To me VAR is a blight on the game but maybe those with influence in the game should lobby for positive change?
One thing is for certain. The thoughts of the fans will never be considered. [Post edited 7 Nov 2023 23:57]
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| Football has an officiating problem on 23:56 - Nov 7 with 2717 views | Simonds92 |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:43 - Nov 7 by Garv |
Giving teams 'challenges' is the new obsession, and it smacks of desperately trying to improve VAR. It won't, it'll confuse things even more. It's one more thing for officials to have to think about and it'll slow the game down even more. It's a bad idea, so I expect to see it from the start of next season.
More technology won't improve refereeing. It'll make it worse if anything. The longer everyone tries to find perfection while constantly looking at subjective decisions and complaining about 'consistency' for some bizarre reason, the whole system will continue to fall flat on its arse.
We could have got one or two penalties tonight, but we didn't. Hirst got a kick but it didn't knock him over, he had to fall over to make it actually look like a foul. The handball was more obvious, but to be frank fewer penalties in the sport isn't a bad thing.
I agree the offside law should change though. |
The Hirst one is stonewall and not a subjective decision. The standard of officiating and the people coming up with all these slight variations in the rules are so poor at the minute. Im convinced they make it a lot harder than it needs to be. [Post edited 8 Nov 2023 7:52]
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| Football has an officiating problem on 23:59 - Nov 7 with 2683 views | Garv |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:56 - Nov 7 by Simonds92 |
The Hirst one is stonewall and not a subjective decision. The standard of officiating and the people coming up with all these slight variations in the rules are so poor at the minute. Im convinced they make it a lot harder than it needs to be. [Post edited 8 Nov 2023 7:52]
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It's completely subjective. | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 00:15 - Nov 8 with 2624 views | Garv |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:51 - Nov 7 by Whos_blue |
I'm not a fan of VAR, but it doesn't seem as if it's not going away anytime soon, so maybe the "challenges" is worth exploring?
I won't compare the games of cricket and football but teams are allowed 3 challenges per innings and it has become integral to the game.
The officials rarely intervene otherwise.
To me VAR is a blight on the game but maybe those with influence in the game should lobby for positive change?
One thing is for certain. The thoughts of the fans will never be considered. [Post edited 7 Nov 2023 23:57]
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It works in cricket for a few reasons. The sports are so different though I just dislike the idea of it in football, it'll muddy the waters even more. Do we think the petulant child that is Mikel Arteta, for example, is going to accept a howler going against him just because the referee missed it and he'd used all his challenges? Clubs will soon demand to have the old system back again.
It's b*ggered. | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 00:31 - Nov 8 with 2587 views | Illinoisblue |
The non decision for the handball in the second half was just as bad as the non call for the foul on Hirst. I don’t know how a ref doesn’t see either of them.
The idea of challenges feels like it would be a bastard to make it work efficiently and not slow the game down. Refs just need to do their damn job. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 07:08 - Nov 8 with 2312 views | Asa |
| Football has an officiating problem on 23:56 - Nov 7 by Simonds92 |
The Hirst one is stonewall and not a subjective decision. The standard of officiating and the people coming up with all these slight variations in the rules are so poor at the minute. Im convinced they make it a lot harder than it needs to be. [Post edited 8 Nov 2023 7:52]
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The ref had a perfect view and must see Hirst's leg being swept underneath him.
At that stage it doesn't matter whether he clucks his arms like a chicken on the way down. Hinchcliffe (I think) banging on about how theatrical he went down, when he was largely putting his arms out to try and balance as he want down, is completely irrelevant.
The standard of refereeing has been shocking but we've had plenty of bad refs this season and still won the matches so it's not cost us. We should have seen the game out last night but it's tiring to have such a clear decision missed.
I'd also say the handball gets given in the Premier League. His arm isn't in a natural position is it Andy. His hand is up. Natural is intended to be down by the sides or up slightly when jumping, not up in the air whilst grounded.
Annoying but, as we've seen in the Premier League, even with replays they are getting decisions completely wrong. What chance to we have at this level. | | | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 07:48 - Nov 8 with 2208 views | Zx1988 |
| Football has an officiating problem on 00:15 - Nov 8 by Garv |
It works in cricket for a few reasons. The sports are so different though I just dislike the idea of it in football, it'll muddy the waters even more. Do we think the petulant child that is Mikel Arteta, for example, is going to accept a howler going against him just because the referee missed it and he'd used all his challenges? Clubs will soon demand to have the old system back again.
It's b*ggered. |
Surely the system would work in such a way that a successful challenge (the same as in tennis and cricket) means that the challenge is retained.
If the scenario you suggest were to arise, the only party to blame would be Arteta for having wasted his two/three challenges prior to that point. | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 07:55 - Nov 8 with 2198 views | homer_123 |
No - it's football. There has always been and always will be bad/ wrong/ contentious decisions.
It's part of the sports DNA and should not be taken away - as much as we moan, complain etc. it is what it is. As we are seeing with VAR, serves no purpose other than to slow the game, take the joy, fun and emotion out of it.
Even with VAR and 4 or 5 'experts' in a room, decisions are still wrong - so just revert back to what it was before VAR. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 08:02 - Nov 8 with 2164 views | Bluefields |
Its the standards in this country imo. Watching Champions League games last night and I dont see the same issues. Players seemingly accepting referees decisions and getting on with it. | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:08 - Nov 8 with 2154 views | Simonds92 |
| Football has an officiating problem on 07:55 - Nov 8 by homer_123 |
No - it's football. There has always been and always will be bad/ wrong/ contentious decisions.
It's part of the sports DNA and should not be taken away - as much as we moan, complain etc. it is what it is. As we are seeing with VAR, serves no purpose other than to slow the game, take the joy, fun and emotion out of it.
Even with VAR and 4 or 5 'experts' in a room, decisions are still wrong - so just revert back to what it was before VAR. |
To an extent I agree but what I cant get my head around is the fact that the tv networks covering the game can come up with a correct decision on the majority of these VAR calls and they can do it much quicker. If we're doing the clear and obvious thing, it shouldn't need to be reviewed in 10 different angles. Stick the VAR guy in the studio and let him have access to the images sky produce and get the decision made in the same time it takes the pundits to form an opinion. (Make sure the official is in their own separate room for the duration of the game, don't want clueless idiots like Hinchcliffe influencing their decision). | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:09 - Nov 8 with 2147 views | homer_123 |
| Football has an officiating problem on 07:48 - Nov 8 by Zx1988 |
Surely the system would work in such a way that a successful challenge (the same as in tennis and cricket) means that the challenge is retained.
If the scenario you suggest were to arise, the only party to blame would be Arteta for having wasted his two/three challenges prior to that point. |
4 or 5 'experts' in a room using VAR can't get decisions right.
Why would challenges work? | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 08:18 - Nov 8 with 2119 views | Durovigutum |
I am a referee, although only at grassroots level. In our county FA is a chap who does ITFC games from time to time.
Last night the referee was let down by his positioning - he wasn’t able to keep up with play. At the root of the problem for me is the idea that one person, running around the pitch that now contains 22 athletes who will be professionals (not part timers) and therefore fitter and faster, to get in the right position to be able to see a split second decision. Guess what - you can’t. The system is setting the referees up to fail. Watch the Hirst penalty shout (it was a penalty), the ball breaks quickly and the ref must turn and sprint to get to the area - he is 35 yards away when the foul comes in and a defender steps in front of his eye line at the key moment. The AR is also 25 yards away and the wrong side of the challenge - plus no referee wants an AR coming in there (although I think the RDOs are downplaying the ARs too much).
The VAR situation is terrible, but remember that of an average weekend less than 0.2% of the games will have VAR - it doesn’t fix the root problem we face with officiating. |  | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:24 - Nov 8 with 2082 views | Simonds92 |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:18 - Nov 8 by Durovigutum |
I am a referee, although only at grassroots level. In our county FA is a chap who does ITFC games from time to time.
Last night the referee was let down by his positioning - he wasn’t able to keep up with play. At the root of the problem for me is the idea that one person, running around the pitch that now contains 22 athletes who will be professionals (not part timers) and therefore fitter and faster, to get in the right position to be able to see a split second decision. Guess what - you can’t. The system is setting the referees up to fail. Watch the Hirst penalty shout (it was a penalty), the ball breaks quickly and the ref must turn and sprint to get to the area - he is 35 yards away when the foul comes in and a defender steps in front of his eye line at the key moment. The AR is also 25 yards away and the wrong side of the challenge - plus no referee wants an AR coming in there (although I think the RDOs are downplaying the ARs too much).
The VAR situation is terrible, but remember that of an average weekend less than 0.2% of the games will have VAR - it doesn’t fix the root problem we face with officiating. |
So scrap VAR but have a referee in each half of the pitch? Would they get in the way of the game doing that?
I absolutely get your point im just wondering if there's a suggestion on how to remedy the situation. | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:31 - Nov 8 with 2060 views | FrimleyBlue |
Did I read that last night's ref was going to be doing a prem game sat?
If so... surely it can't help to have officials working with and then without VAR.. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 08:34 - Nov 8 with 2054 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:09 - Nov 8 by homer_123 |
4 or 5 'experts' in a room using VAR can't get decisions right.
Why would challenges work? |
They can a lot of the time and that gets overlooked. It’s the ones that goes wrong where all the focus is. Nobody comments on all the cases where previously a team would have been robbed of something.
There’s been a rash of terrible decisions in the Championship lately. And we all know how bad things were in L1. I’d have some sort of VAR in the whole of the EFL if it was practical. The issues with it tend to be around the ambiguous nature of the Laws of the game. Maybe that’s the way to improve officiating - take the judgement calls out of it as much as possible. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 08:37 - Nov 8 with 2039 views | TownieRob |
I was thinking about this after that crazy game on Monday night, and now more so after last night. It's becoming a mix of the football we knew and American football, with all the replays and officials constantly reviewing causing so many delays and not even getting the right decision in the end!
I'm not entirely sure how to make it better, but it got me wondering about the coaches and managers we're seeing now. Some of them never quite made it to the top as players, and their careers got cut short for various reasons. Maybe that's the key? Should we be doing more to encourage players who leave the pro game early to become referees?
I would expect they'd get the game from a player's perspective better, the intentions, the "dark arts," and the one thing that really bugs me and hopefully they would understand better are the contradictory decisions e.g when there is a penalty claim and its debatable if the defender got the ball, then a goal kick is given, suggesting no touch of the ball... I also expect they'd handle the high-pressure situations like a breeze, having been out there on the field themselves.
Of course, any plan like this would need some careful thinking, especially regarding loyalties and prio associations. But isn't that what's happening already with referees having their "own" team and the FA making the assignments? | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:51 - Nov 8 with 2008 views | Bluesky |
The referee last night did not keep up with play. Maybe we need one referee for each half of the field (in American Football there always seem to be lots of stripey shirts). - provided we could find the manpower that was fit enough. |  | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:56 - Nov 8 with 1938 views | pointofblue |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:51 - Nov 8 by Bluesky |
The referee last night did not keep up with play. Maybe we need one referee for each half of the field (in American Football there always seem to be lots of stripey shirts). - provided we could find the manpower that was fit enough. |
American Football officials are nearly as bad even though there seems to be one for each player. There have been some dreadful calls, this year in particular. | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 09:12 - Nov 8 with 1841 views | Garv |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:37 - Nov 8 by TownieRob |
I was thinking about this after that crazy game on Monday night, and now more so after last night. It's becoming a mix of the football we knew and American football, with all the replays and officials constantly reviewing causing so many delays and not even getting the right decision in the end!
I'm not entirely sure how to make it better, but it got me wondering about the coaches and managers we're seeing now. Some of them never quite made it to the top as players, and their careers got cut short for various reasons. Maybe that's the key? Should we be doing more to encourage players who leave the pro game early to become referees?
I would expect they'd get the game from a player's perspective better, the intentions, the "dark arts," and the one thing that really bugs me and hopefully they would understand better are the contradictory decisions e.g when there is a penalty claim and its debatable if the defender got the ball, then a goal kick is given, suggesting no touch of the ball... I also expect they'd handle the high-pressure situations like a breeze, having been out there on the field themselves.
Of course, any plan like this would need some careful thinking, especially regarding loyalties and prio associations. But isn't that what's happening already with referees having their "own" team and the FA making the assignments? |
The game is so tribal I don't see how that could work like it does in Cricket, for example.
Same reason you can't put ex players in the VAR room. | |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 09:14 - Nov 8 with 1831 views | Durovigutum |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:24 - Nov 8 by Simonds92 |
So scrap VAR but have a referee in each half of the pitch? Would they get in the way of the game doing that?
I absolutely get your point im just wondering if there's a suggestion on how to remedy the situation. |
Like field hockey - yes, I think it is an option. They did a trial in Italy ten plus years ago but just had the two referees follow each other around. | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 09:19 - Nov 8 with 1815 views | TownieRob |
| Football has an officiating problem on 09:12 - Nov 8 by Garv |
The game is so tribal I don't see how that could work like it does in Cricket, for example.
Same reason you can't put ex players in the VAR room. |
I hear you. That said, there are a few referees who it is known to have season tickets at clubs.
Also, many players have "teams" yet still play for other teams. I would hope those being employed to be referees would have the professionalism to act appropritately.
As I said, I dont know how it gets better, but it really does need to as many of these current referees are uttely terrible. With absolutely no understanding of the game and behave and make decsions which clearly show that. | | | |
| Football has an officiating problem on 09:27 - Nov 8 with 1780 views | GeoffSentence |
As well as being shlt in its ownright, VAR robs the lower leagues of some of the, theoretically, better officials as the PL needs more of them. |  |
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| Football has an officiating problem on 09:38 - Nov 8 with 1745 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Football has an officiating problem on 08:51 - Nov 8 by Bluesky |
The referee last night did not keep up with play. Maybe we need one referee for each half of the field (in American Football there always seem to be lots of stripey shirts). - provided we could find the manpower that was fit enough. |
Not surprising. He’s 55. He’ll be 3x the age of some of the players he ref’s this season.
I’d be all for a ref in each half if it helped. That’s not being ageist either - I’m slightly younger than Scott and I couldn’t keep up with the speed of a game even when at my fittest. You can last 90 mins fine, but there’s no way at 55 you’re keeping up with Jackson or Hutch (or anyone) on the run. | |
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