| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days 20:00 - Jan 19 with 5643 views | ElderGrizzly |
Sale is unachievable without Boro and Wycombe basically waiving rights to their claims.
EFL have already given their 'advice'
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 21:33 - Jan 19 with 1915 views | Churchman |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 20:56 - Jan 19 by giant_stow |
It will sting for the fans, but they'll just have to happy supporting the phoenix club and lump the non leagues. Personally, I have little sympathy for the club as it cheated. |
I think this is the key to it. They cheated - including potentially us, as Joe points out. Yes nothing might be proven in law, but they did. No, the majority of their fans including a very close friend of mine don’t deserve it, but the reality of it is where do you draw the line?
Do you just hammer Bury and relegate the likes of Swindon because they don’t matter? I think they do matter and so do the rules under which clubs operate. If Derby slither out of this, which of course they will, when and where will the line be drawn? Do we just wait for a no mark club like say MK Dons to ‘make a stand’? Probably and that saddens me. It’s the weakness that allowed the PL to be formed and the game to be destroyed by what followed.
This one is up to the EFL. I’m not holding my breath, but well done M’boro for digging their heels in. [Post edited 19 Jan 2022 21:35]
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 21:34 - Jan 19 with 1904 views | MisterBlue |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 20:46 - Jan 19 by pointofblue |
Middlesbrough are claiming £45m though - no side loses £45m from two play off matches. Promotion was, at least then, worth £180m but they only had a one in four chance of going up then. |
Don't forget Sheff Utd successfully sued West Ham for around £20m after cheating in 2007, following the leagues failure to deduct points.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50177440 |  | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 21:55 - Jan 19 with 1863 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 21:24 - Jan 19 by Swansea_Blue |
The issue seems to be the value of the claim. The string of tweets in the OP seems to suggest it’s a large claim (beyond what could be raised by selling players, and a good chunk of the value of the club). I’d have thought the only loss that can be proven is the revenue from the PO semi final. Anything else is purely speculative.
In fairness to ‘Boro, they’ve said they’re happy to talk to the administrator and are open to a compromise to avoid Derby being wound up. It sounds like the administrator isn’t engaging too well with them though. |
I think you can quantity the loss of 1 place of prize money and some merch sales as well but I'm not sure how they have got to 45 million.
I think surely Wycomes claim is worth more becaues that's a season in the championship and that must be a bigger loss than 2 games and a few two tons scarf sales [Post edited 19 Jan 2022 23:15]
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:12 - Jan 19 with 1824 views | Radlett_blue |
Sport is almost unworkable if these sorts of decisions end up in the courts. The failure to enforce FFP has been a running sore for many years - if you cheat & get promoted, it doesn't matter & you end up paying a nominal fine. I don't think clubs should be able to make such claims, but the reality is that the leagues should enforce their rules properly & West Ham getting away with their clear breach of the rules was a sore point. However, enforcing FFP is also near unworkable as clubs finds ways around it, such as the ground sale scam, or the breaches are discovered too late. |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:15 - Jan 19 with 1811 views | ArnieM |
I’ve no sympathy for Derby they’ve behaved irresponsibly and with a financial arrogance for over a decade now. They are reaping what they have sown IMHO. |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:33 - Jan 19 with 1756 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:12 - Jan 19 by Radlett_blue |
Sport is almost unworkable if these sorts of decisions end up in the courts. The failure to enforce FFP has been a running sore for many years - if you cheat & get promoted, it doesn't matter & you end up paying a nominal fine. I don't think clubs should be able to make such claims, but the reality is that the leagues should enforce their rules properly & West Ham getting away with their clear breach of the rules was a sore point. However, enforcing FFP is also near unworkable as clubs finds ways around it, such as the ground sale scam, or the breaches are discovered too late. |
This is the crux of it. It sits in the courts because the EFL failed repeatedly to deal with it.
I don't want to see any club get liquidated. However, I also don't want to see the deliberate ignoring of the FFP rules that Derby continued to do for many years to go unpunished.
If there is a new owner serious about taking on the club, they have to be accepting of all the financial liabilities of what they are buying. That would mean the new owners agreeing a settlement with these clubs or accepting liability for the cost if they lose the court cases.
£45M will be Middlesbrough's highest estimate of losses with no realistic expectation of achieving the full amount. However, the minimum they would accept would be gate receipts etc for the play off matches. On this basis I am sure they would accept a reasonable settlement. The administrators can only really agree such a settlement if they have the capacity to pay it and accept that there is a high probability the courts would find in their opponents' favour. |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:40 - Jan 19 with 1747 views | SouthfieldsBlue |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:33 - Jan 19 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This is the crux of it. It sits in the courts because the EFL failed repeatedly to deal with it.
I don't want to see any club get liquidated. However, I also don't want to see the deliberate ignoring of the FFP rules that Derby continued to do for many years to go unpunished.
If there is a new owner serious about taking on the club, they have to be accepting of all the financial liabilities of what they are buying. That would mean the new owners agreeing a settlement with these clubs or accepting liability for the cost if they lose the court cases.
£45M will be Middlesbrough's highest estimate of losses with no realistic expectation of achieving the full amount. However, the minimum they would accept would be gate receipts etc for the play off matches. On this basis I am sure they would accept a reasonable settlement. The administrators can only really agree such a settlement if they have the capacity to pay it and accept that there is a high probability the courts would find in their opponents' favour. |
I think it was just how brazen it was as well, every knew they were doing it and they took no care to hide it and when it didn't work they went double or nothing by effectively mortgaging the stadium. Whilst sad to see any club be liquidated, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
On the claims, whilst Middlesbrough's is much more talked about, Wycombe's just seems a lot more slam dunk?
They deliberately filed their accounts incredibly kate so the punishment that should have been applied that season was too late to enact and got carried forward into the next season, so not only did they cheat, they then broke further rules to avoid punishment and send Wycombe down instead. Certainly based on the West Ham ruling it feels like a very strong case. |  | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:50 - Jan 19 with 1710 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:40 - Jan 19 by SouthfieldsBlue |
I think it was just how brazen it was as well, every knew they were doing it and they took no care to hide it and when it didn't work they went double or nothing by effectively mortgaging the stadium. Whilst sad to see any club be liquidated, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
On the claims, whilst Middlesbrough's is much more talked about, Wycombe's just seems a lot more slam dunk?
They deliberately filed their accounts incredibly kate so the punishment that should have been applied that season was too late to enact and got carried forward into the next season, so not only did they cheat, they then broke further rules to avoid punishment and send Wycombe down instead. Certainly based on the West Ham ruling it feels like a very strong case. |
Indeed. I wonder how much more money Wycombe would make from a Championship season than one in League 1. I expect they would probably be due more money than Middlesbrough in the final analysis. All these clubs are businesses and will want to raise as much as they are properly owed. | |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 23:49 - Jan 19 with 1622 views | Illinoisblue |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:12 - Jan 19 by Radlett_blue |
Sport is almost unworkable if these sorts of decisions end up in the courts. The failure to enforce FFP has been a running sore for many years - if you cheat & get promoted, it doesn't matter & you end up paying a nominal fine. I don't think clubs should be able to make such claims, but the reality is that the leagues should enforce their rules properly & West Ham getting away with their clear breach of the rules was a sore point. However, enforcing FFP is also near unworkable as clubs finds ways around it, such as the ground sale scam, or the breaches are discovered too late. |
The EFL have been weak for so long and now it’s all coming home to roost. Everyone praises Leicester for being such a well run stable club… yet they cheated FFP rules in 2014, paid a 3mill settlement and carried on as normal.
Of course, banter era rules will apply and just as we start spending big on wages, we’ll probably get hammered by new financial rules. |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 00:39 - Jan 20 with 1580 views | berkstractorboy |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:50 - Jan 19 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Indeed. I wonder how much more money Wycombe would make from a Championship season than one in League 1. I expect they would probably be due more money than Middlesbrough in the final analysis. All these clubs are businesses and will want to raise as much as they are properly owed. |
Would Wycombe get that much more in Champ? I guess TV money increased, the small % you get from away games but some small crowds in Champ at home and look at L1 this year with Sunderland, Town and Sheff Wed all with huge crowds not forgetting Pompey so you could argue from away games that may not be losing out. As for home crowds they are so tin pot probably more in L1 to watch successful hoofball rather than losing in Champ.
Wycombe should just back down as others have said its very dubious how they got up, rough with the smooth and all that.
Boro case IMO has more merit as potential lost out on EPL money for a season, but £45M hard to justify but then any amount is really but Derby can't simply get away with cheating that got them into play-offs at the expense of other clubs | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 07:51 - Jan 20 with 1451 views | Horseboy |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:40 - Jan 19 by SouthfieldsBlue |
I think it was just how brazen it was as well, every knew they were doing it and they took no care to hide it and when it didn't work they went double or nothing by effectively mortgaging the stadium. Whilst sad to see any club be liquidated, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
On the claims, whilst Middlesbrough's is much more talked about, Wycombe's just seems a lot more slam dunk?
They deliberately filed their accounts incredibly kate so the punishment that should have been applied that season was too late to enact and got carried forward into the next season, so not only did they cheat, they then broke further rules to avoid punishment and send Wycombe down instead. Certainly based on the West Ham ruling it feels like a very strong case. |
The stadium sale was cleared has nothing to do with this, its about amortization. | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 08:49 - Jan 20 with 1375 views | wkj |
Im kind of torn about all this. I have no love for Derby beyond them having cracking stewards. I don't like seeing fans have their club taken from them by virtue of moronic owners - but at the same time, Wycombe got shafted last season.
I doubt very much that Wycombe are motivated to see Derby fold, but I can imagine Middlesborough might be quite happy to see them go under.
Either way - Mel Morris needs to be seriously sanctioned for all of this and never be allowed near football ownership ever again. |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 09:24 - Jan 20 with 1329 views | Zx1988 |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 00:39 - Jan 20 by berkstractorboy |
Would Wycombe get that much more in Champ? I guess TV money increased, the small % you get from away games but some small crowds in Champ at home and look at L1 this year with Sunderland, Town and Sheff Wed all with huge crowds not forgetting Pompey so you could argue from away games that may not be losing out. As for home crowds they are so tin pot probably more in L1 to watch successful hoofball rather than losing in Champ.
Wycombe should just back down as others have said its very dubious how they got up, rough with the smooth and all that.
Boro case IMO has more merit as potential lost out on EPL money for a season, but £45M hard to justify but then any amount is really but Derby can't simply get away with cheating that got them into play-offs at the expense of other clubs |
Based on the discussions that were had when we were relegated, it would suggest that Wycombe probably lost out on a high-seven-figure sum as a result of relegation. Certainly the sort of money that would go a long way at a club of their size. | |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 09:46 - Jan 20 with 1276 views | Jon_456 |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 09:24 - Jan 20 by Zx1988 |
Based on the discussions that were had when we were relegated, it would suggest that Wycombe probably lost out on a high-seven-figure sum as a result of relegation. Certainly the sort of money that would go a long way at a club of their size. |
Thats a shame, I feel really sorry for Wycombe now.. | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 10:07 - Jan 20 with 1258 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 08:49 - Jan 20 by wkj |
Im kind of torn about all this. I have no love for Derby beyond them having cracking stewards. I don't like seeing fans have their club taken from them by virtue of moronic owners - but at the same time, Wycombe got shafted last season.
I doubt very much that Wycombe are motivated to see Derby fold, but I can imagine Middlesborough might be quite happy to see them go under.
Either way - Mel Morris needs to be seriously sanctioned for all of this and never be allowed near football ownership ever again. |
And his parent company still stands to make £20m+ from the sale once it goes through | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 10:32 - Jan 20 with 1211 views | berkstractorboy |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 09:24 - Jan 20 by Zx1988 |
Based on the discussions that were had when we were relegated, it would suggest that Wycombe probably lost out on a high-seven-figure sum as a result of relegation. Certainly the sort of money that would go a long way at a club of their size. |
So probably TV money accounts for most of that seven figure loss, as I said I am not sure they have lost out much on gate receipts but could be wrong of course.
The reality now is stand firm with the legal case and probably see Derby liquidated, get no money and by seen as the bad guys by most football fans, or drop it and accept its football and in that sense Derby get away with the cheating. | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 13:52 - Jan 20 with 1104 views | itfcjoe |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 22:33 - Jan 19 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This is the crux of it. It sits in the courts because the EFL failed repeatedly to deal with it.
I don't want to see any club get liquidated. However, I also don't want to see the deliberate ignoring of the FFP rules that Derby continued to do for many years to go unpunished.
If there is a new owner serious about taking on the club, they have to be accepting of all the financial liabilities of what they are buying. That would mean the new owners agreeing a settlement with these clubs or accepting liability for the cost if they lose the court cases.
£45M will be Middlesbrough's highest estimate of losses with no realistic expectation of achieving the full amount. However, the minimum they would accept would be gate receipts etc for the play off matches. On this basis I am sure they would accept a reasonable settlement. The administrators can only really agree such a settlement if they have the capacity to pay it and accept that there is a high probability the courts would find in their opponents' favour. |
"I don't want to see any club get liquidated. However, I also don't want to see the deliberate ignoring of the FFP rules that Derby continued to do for many years to go unpunished."
Surely the 21 point deduction, transfer embargoes in both windows and the fact it will almsot certainly relegate them is their punishment for breaching FFP? |  |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 13:53 - Jan 20 with 1104 views | itfcjoe |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 09:24 - Jan 20 by Zx1988 |
Based on the discussions that were had when we were relegated, it would suggest that Wycombe probably lost out on a high-seven-figure sum as a result of relegation. Certainly the sort of money that would go a long way at a club of their size. |
It's about £6m | |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:00 - Jan 20 with 1085 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 13:52 - Jan 20 by itfcjoe |
"I don't want to see any club get liquidated. However, I also don't want to see the deliberate ignoring of the FFP rules that Derby continued to do for many years to go unpunished."
Surely the 21 point deduction, transfer embargoes in both windows and the fact it will almsot certainly relegate them is their punishment for breaching FFP? |
Those were the punishments for breaching FFP, this is something different of course.
On top of that and as was admitted by Derby's administrators and confirmed by the EFL, they have never proven funding until the end of the season and now Derby are asking not to have to do this.
Because they can't.
EFL have simply said, you need to do so by 1st Feb or we withdraw your licence to participate.
And then you've got all the other legal cases against them.
The fans are not to blame of course, but you also can't just change the rules because Gary Neville tweeted. | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:04 - Jan 20 with 1066 views | vanmunt |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:00 - Jan 20 by ElderGrizzly |
Those were the punishments for breaching FFP, this is something different of course.
On top of that and as was admitted by Derby's administrators and confirmed by the EFL, they have never proven funding until the end of the season and now Derby are asking not to have to do this.
Because they can't.
EFL have simply said, you need to do so by 1st Feb or we withdraw your licence to participate.
And then you've got all the other legal cases against them.
The fans are not to blame of course, but you also can't just change the rules because Gary Neville tweeted. |
Ah Gary Neville, the epitome of a champagne socialist. |  | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:04 - Jan 20 with 1056 views | itfcjoe |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:00 - Jan 20 by ElderGrizzly |
Those were the punishments for breaching FFP, this is something different of course.
On top of that and as was admitted by Derby's administrators and confirmed by the EFL, they have never proven funding until the end of the season and now Derby are asking not to have to do this.
Because they can't.
EFL have simply said, you need to do so by 1st Feb or we withdraw your licence to participate.
And then you've got all the other legal cases against them.
The fans are not to blame of course, but you also can't just change the rules because Gary Neville tweeted. |
But the EFL could have come down harder on them earlier, and inflicted punishments at that time - that they didn't isn't Derby's fault.
i.e. last year, when they didn't supply accounts in time so they wouldn't get relegated then it should have been i you haven't supplied by x then there is a points dedduction of y - the equivalent of skipping a drugs test and it counting as afail.
Derby, and Morris specifically, have been awful, but it's a governance issue and not something that should be sorted out between clubs in or out of court.
Boro and Wycombe should be suing the EFL if they want their day in court | |
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| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:44 - Jan 20 with 1000 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 20:46 - Jan 19 by pointofblue |
Middlesbrough are claiming £45m though - no side loses £45m from two play off matches. Promotion was, at least then, worth £180m but they only had a one in four chance of going up then. |
They have lost a quarter chance of £180 million.
Divide £180 million by 4 and you get £45 million.
That's a reasonable way of pricing their loss for the claim, but I am pretty sure that they wouldn't expect to get that, even if Derby were flush. It's the starting point, and the Judge would reach a view on the fair value of their chance, or they would reach a compromise settlement out of court.
But the Administrator doesn't have the funds to even get close, and they also have to be equally fair to the other creditors.
It would be best if they were wound up and Derby fans got behind a Phoenix club. Both for the Derby fans, in the long run, but also for football as it would hopefully put an end to club's flouting Financial Fair Play rules.
Wimbledon and Rangers fans have done it, and got back to where they were. | | | |
| Liquidation for Derby in 12 days on 14:53 - Jan 20 with 972 views | ITFC_Forever |
Should it come to pass that Derby become an ex-club, then I will absolutely feel sorry for the normal, every day Derby fans - but they will have a phoenix club to get behind no doubt.
The actual Derby County football club will get everything they deserve - they have blatantly cheated and bent the rules as far as they could, then broke them.
The Inland Revenue will cry no tears either - they've been itching for a high profile club to go under for years, and now it could happen.
The fact the woeful EFL, chaired during the most-part of this by the hopeless Shaun Harvey (who to add insult to injury insisted all clubs chip in thousands, in sometimes hundreds of k to his leaving present) have allowed this to happen will show them in a dreadful light as well. |  |
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