| Oh i love this country 10:42 - Dec 5 with 25160 views | FrimleyBlue |
Rent up another £10 a week
Commuting up another 3.5%
Now, what are the odds of my salary going up.........
Disclaimer........ not saying any other country would be any different, but just laughing with a colleague about it |  |
| |  |
| Oh i love this country on 14:33 - Dec 5 with 4907 views | factual_blue |
| Oh i love this country on 14:09 - Dec 5 by dickie |
I'm getting a 1% pay rise in April (big whoop), although as it's the first one in 10 years I am stifling a small lob on |
2.9% rise in my pension. My Civil Service pension, contrary to what some on here like to think, isn't gold-plated.
It's solid gold with intricate iridium damascene filigree work. |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 14:34 - Dec 5 with 4903 views | chicoazul |
| Oh i love this country on 12:40 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
Ditto.
A country where personal liberty becomes the gospel above all others will automatically disadvantage a huge proportion of its own population. I'm not against liberty at all - quite the opposite. Just that there needs to be a proper balance with equality. |
It's difficult though. The cult of the individual seems to me to be at the core of neoliberalism but at the same time, curtailing personal freedoms to do what one wishes with ones own body for instance seems to be very unpopular politics at the moment. |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 14:34 - Dec 5 with 4901 views | StirlingArcher |
| Oh i love this country on 14:26 - Dec 5 by blue_oyster |
Not imposing anything. It is simply a point being made. If your point of view was always seen to be 'imposing', there would be no such thing as debate. |
Only a totalitarian would answer like that, implying there is room for debate when really only their answer is going to end said "debate" |  | | |
| Oh i love this country on 14:38 - Dec 5 with 4893 views | chicoazul |
| Oh i love this country on 13:44 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
I'm not against liberty in the slightest. Are you "against" equality or at least think that liberty should come first? |
You're not asking me so beg your pardon but I think equality is a bit of a false god and there is not much wrong with a bit of inequality. I am aware large scale inequality is proven to be a bad thing but surely there are ways to manage this that don't restrict opportunity. Equality of opportunity is more important than equality of outcome. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 14:41 - Dec 5 with 4868 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh i love this country on 12:24 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
It's amazing now to think that in the couple of decades after the Second World War we were at the forefront of social reform and progressive thinking.
Then in the late 70s/early 80s we started abandoning all that for Reaganomics and the tyranny of "personal liberty". With equality suddenly seen as the sort of dirty, radical word it was in the Victorian era. All of which has seen us go into reverse, and largely overtaken by our Western European neighbours some of whom have nowhere near the human and natural resources we have.
Put simply, liberty and equality are at odds and need to be kept in balance if we want a better and happier society with hope for future generations and security for the sick, old and otherwise needy. And that's what proper governments and politicians do.
Zombie or sleepwalker, you're right that we're just shuffling along, heading nowhere in particular. |
don't you think it's odd that there's probably no point in the last 200 years when someone didn't write something very similar to all that with the conclusion 'it's seen us go into reverse, and largely overtaken by our Western European neighbours'. ok, the exact causation behind the explanation of our decline will have varied with the fashion of the time, but it's odd that this thesis of uk failure is so consistent amongst the british chattering classes over time. we're not doing all that bad after 200 years of consistent decline. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 14:47 - Dec 5 with 4872 views | Illinoisblue |
| Oh i love this country on 14:33 - Dec 5 by factual_blue |
2.9% rise in my pension. My Civil Service pension, contrary to what some on here like to think, isn't gold-plated.
It's solid gold with intricate iridium damascene filigree work. |
has GlasgowBlue ever called you a Champagne Socialist? |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 14:50 - Dec 5 with 4868 views | factual_blue |
| Oh i love this country on 14:47 - Dec 5 by Illinoisblue |
has GlasgowBlue ever called you a Champagne Socialist? |
Happy with that - the more Champagne that Socialists drink, the less there is for obnoxious capitalists. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 15:16 - Dec 5 with 4841 views | itfcjoe |
| Oh i love this country on 13:50 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
If it rides roughshod over liberty, yes. Neither should have the upper hand.
BTW The safety net is pretty rubbish and we don't make the long-term investment in health, education, housing etc. needed for people to avoid it.
That's on top of the disastrous situation for young wage earners in this country who shouldn't need help but are now facing a future where they'll almost certainly be wasting their money (including much of their savings and pensions) on exorbitant rents. |
I saw Russell Brand at the Regent last night, for all the criticism he gets from some a lot of what he says rings true - and it's so clear that the big media agenda vs him pushes the view onto people when he is trying to help families not get evicted, and find out why full time public sector workers are having to rely on food banks. It's shameful. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Oh i love this country on 15:19 - Dec 5 with 4834 views | blue_oyster |
| Oh i love this country on 14:34 - Dec 5 by StirlingArcher |
Only a totalitarian would answer like that, implying there is room for debate when really only their answer is going to end said "debate" |
 |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 15:19 - Dec 5 with 4834 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh i love this country on 14:38 - Dec 5 by chicoazul |
You're not asking me so beg your pardon but I think equality is a bit of a false god and there is not much wrong with a bit of inequality. I am aware large scale inequality is proven to be a bad thing but surely there are ways to manage this that don't restrict opportunity. Equality of opportunity is more important than equality of outcome. |
No, I agree. With a balance then you're always going to get a bit of inequality or a certain restriction of freedom. But the balance is all about trying to protect and increase the greater good so that's fine.
Apart from the last line. Equality of outcome is much more important than equality of opportunity because the latter tilts everything towards the people who are already in a better position to take advantage of the opportunity. As I said, equality of opportunity on its own is just stealth liberty with no balance to help society as a whole. |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 15:30 - Dec 5 with 4818 views | StirlingArcher |
I rest my case | | | |
| Oh i love this country on 16:01 - Dec 5 with 4792 views | chicoazul |
| Oh i love this country on 15:19 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
No, I agree. With a balance then you're always going to get a bit of inequality or a certain restriction of freedom. But the balance is all about trying to protect and increase the greater good so that's fine.
Apart from the last line. Equality of outcome is much more important than equality of opportunity because the latter tilts everything towards the people who are already in a better position to take advantage of the opportunity. As I said, equality of opportunity on its own is just stealth liberty with no balance to help society as a whole. |
I'm afraid that last paragraph is where we diverge. What you espouse sounds great, as Marxism often does. But pure Marxism has a 100% failure rate. A better way for me would be to have a proper capitalistic society with as you say, checks in place and a proper welfare state (a safety net, not a lifestyle choice). Like Chomsky said, capitalism could be great if we tried it. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 16:11 - Dec 5 with 4781 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh i love this country on 16:01 - Dec 5 by chicoazul |
I'm afraid that last paragraph is where we diverge. What you espouse sounds great, as Marxism often does. But pure Marxism has a 100% failure rate. A better way for me would be to have a proper capitalistic society with as you say, checks in place and a proper welfare state (a safety net, not a lifestyle choice). Like Chomsky said, capitalism could be great if we tried it. |
Eh? In what way is it pure Marxism?
Are the Nordic countries Marxist? [Post edited 5 Dec 2017 16:12]
| |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 16:49 - Dec 5 with 4741 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh i love this country on 15:19 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
No, I agree. With a balance then you're always going to get a bit of inequality or a certain restriction of freedom. But the balance is all about trying to protect and increase the greater good so that's fine.
Apart from the last line. Equality of outcome is much more important than equality of opportunity because the latter tilts everything towards the people who are already in a better position to take advantage of the opportunity. As I said, equality of opportunity on its own is just stealth liberty with no balance to help society as a whole. |
equality of outcome is just bonkers. it's the sort of thing hard line communist states apply to everyone but the party elite.
equality of opportunity involves policy directed at creating and spreading opportunity. it isn't continuation of the status quo - it's a challenge to current patterns of privilege. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:03 - Dec 5 with 4723 views | Herbivore |
| Oh i love this country on 16:01 - Dec 5 by chicoazul |
I'm afraid that last paragraph is where we diverge. What you espouse sounds great, as Marxism often does. But pure Marxism has a 100% failure rate. A better way for me would be to have a proper capitalistic society with as you say, checks in place and a proper welfare state (a safety net, not a lifestyle choice). Like Chomsky said, capitalism could be great if we tried it. |
I'm going to be pedantic here, we've never seen 'pure Marxism'. Neither the Soviet nor the Chinese model count, whilst they may have been inspired by Marx he saw communism as the result of a historical dialectic process and that capitalism had to be fully realised and then collapse on itself in order to usher in communism. He felt conditions were ripe for that in Western Europe in particular in the 19th century. Russia and China were much closer to a feudal system, their industrial development was nowhere near sufficient to ensure the success of the implementation of a communist means of production. That's why the state had to continue to play such a major role in both countries, they were always playing catch up but without the ability to really do so. |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:04 - Dec 5 with 4722 views | Herbivore |
| Oh i love this country on 13:44 - Dec 5 by 26_Paz |
Surely 'equality of outcome' is totalitarian communism?
What we need is 'equality of opportunity' plus a safety net for those who are unable or unwilling to take the opportunities provided, this is the welfare state, which we have. I don't think we're going to far wrong to be honest ... |
Equality of opportunity is a myth. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:09 - Dec 5 with 4705 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh i love this country on 17:04 - Dec 5 by Herbivore |
Equality of opportunity is a myth. |
what's wrong with it as a policy objective. no one is suggesting it exists currently, but surely policies which promote it are a good thing? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:09 - Dec 5 with 4709 views | chicoazul |
| Oh i love this country on 17:03 - Dec 5 by Herbivore |
I'm going to be pedantic here, we've never seen 'pure Marxism'. Neither the Soviet nor the Chinese model count, whilst they may have been inspired by Marx he saw communism as the result of a historical dialectic process and that capitalism had to be fully realised and then collapse on itself in order to usher in communism. He felt conditions were ripe for that in Western Europe in particular in the 19th century. Russia and China were much closer to a feudal system, their industrial development was nowhere near sufficient to ensure the success of the implementation of a communist means of production. That's why the state had to continue to play such a major role in both countries, they were always playing catch up but without the ability to really do so. |
Cuba isn't Marxist? | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:24 - Dec 5 with 4682 views | Herbivore |
| Oh i love this country on 17:09 - Dec 5 by chicoazul |
Cuba isn't Marxist? |
Not fully, although it's closer than Russia and China were. Cuba was never likely to do brilliantly as such a small island nation on its own so it's not really a great example though and for all of their issues their literacy rates and infant mortality rates are much better than many other Latin American countries and in fact their infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S. Those are significant achievements given the sanctions they've had to exist under over the past 60 years. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:27 - Dec 5 with 4675 views | Herbivore |
| Oh i love this country on 17:09 - Dec 5 by lowhouseblue |
what's wrong with it as a policy objective. no one is suggesting it exists currently, but surely policies which promote it are a good thing? |
As a policy it simply reinforces structural inequality, unless you're willing to back it up with a move towards greater material equality. | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:32 - Dec 5 with 4665 views | chicoazul |
| Oh i love this country on 17:24 - Dec 5 by Herbivore |
Not fully, although it's closer than Russia and China were. Cuba was never likely to do brilliantly as such a small island nation on its own so it's not really a great example though and for all of their issues their literacy rates and infant mortality rates are much better than many other Latin American countries and in fact their infant mortality rate is lower than the U.S. Those are significant achievements given the sanctions they've had to exist under over the past 60 years. |
How about Venezuela? Bolivia? | |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:32 - Dec 5 with 4669 views | ipswich78 |
This isn't aimed at the OP - but we do appear to have a lot of whingers in this country (I am sure others do as well but I don't have a reference point to compare).
Yes, cost of living does go up - do i like it? No. But we have a choice, accept it and move on OR try and better yourself to improve your earning potential.
Is this country really that bad? If so, leave! Go elsewhere, there's nothing stopping you (assuming other countries will want you... and we haven't left the EU!)
OR, try and make a change - get involved in politics. Don't just moan. |  |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:33 - Dec 5 with 4665 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh i love this country on 17:27 - Dec 5 by Herbivore |
As a policy it simply reinforces structural inequality, unless you're willing to back it up with a move towards greater material equality. |
how does a policy seeking to redistribute opportunities 'reinforce structural inequality'?? that's nonsense.
if opportunities are more equally distributed then the distribution of outcomes will also change, but that is very different from saying that you want equality of outcomes. equality of outcomes implies a totalitarian state. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh i love this country on 17:40 - Dec 5 with 4650 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Oh i love this country on 12:24 - Dec 5 by Darth_Koont |
It's amazing now to think that in the couple of decades after the Second World War we were at the forefront of social reform and progressive thinking.
Then in the late 70s/early 80s we started abandoning all that for Reaganomics and the tyranny of "personal liberty". With equality suddenly seen as the sort of dirty, radical word it was in the Victorian era. All of which has seen us go into reverse, and largely overtaken by our Western European neighbours some of whom have nowhere near the human and natural resources we have.
Put simply, liberty and equality are at odds and need to be kept in balance if we want a better and happier society with hope for future generations and security for the sick, old and otherwise needy. And that's what proper governments and politicians do.
Zombie or sleepwalker, you're right that we're just shuffling along, heading nowhere in particular. |
All the manufacturing jobs have gone east, all the tech jobs are gone or on their way. The wealth that was enjoyed by the masses in the past has gone too. We are left with jobs in services that will increasingly be in less demand.
This isn’t reversible and you shouldn’t look to the past or take anything for granted. It may just be that our civilisation is coming to a natural end |  | | |
| Oh i love this country on 17:42 - Dec 5 with 4643 views | ipswich78 |
| Oh i love this country on 17:40 - Dec 5 by FrowsyArmLarry |
All the manufacturing jobs have gone east, all the tech jobs are gone or on their way. The wealth that was enjoyed by the masses in the past has gone too. We are left with jobs in services that will increasingly be in less demand.
This isn’t reversible and you shouldn’t look to the past or take anything for granted. It may just be that our civilisation is coming to a natural end |
Tech jobs are massively on the increase in the UK... So hugely disagree with you on that one. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
