| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? 12:11 - Jul 5 with 2401 views | Darth_Koont |
And I say that as a remainer myself who thinks the arguments for remaining were far, far stronger and crucially more real.
But what an utter failure of a movement. To go from making Remain the most important position in British politics to most of them now agreeing that a “competent” hard Brexit is the acceptable way forward. They didn’t just achieve absolutely nothing they set out to do, they actively torpedoed a soft Brexit retaining the customs union.
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:13 - Jul 5 with 1485 views | chicoazul |
The SNP. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:15 - Jul 5 with 1476 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:13 - Jul 5 by chicoazul |
The SNP. |
Evidence?
They’re the most successful and powerful movement in Scotland. And have been for a number of years. Now with the Greens brought in too. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:16 - Jul 5 with 1463 views | chicoazul |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:15 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Evidence?
They’re the most successful and powerful movement in Scotland. And have been for a number of years. Now with the Greens brought in too. |
The SNP have but one goal and have failed at it for nearly 100 years. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:19 - Jul 5 with 1453 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:16 - Jul 5 by chicoazul |
The SNP have but one goal and have failed at it for nearly 100 years. |
So not like a movement that achieved nothing, has all but evaporated after 5 years and has rolled on its back to have its tummy rubbed by politicians promising a “better” hard Brexit? | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:24 - Jul 5 with 1420 views | chicoazul |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:19 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
So not like a movement that achieved nothing, has all but evaporated after 5 years and has rolled on its back to have its tummy rubbed by politicians promising a “better” hard Brexit? |
Don’t get me wrong I agree with you about FBPE. They’re idiotic and they would immediately sabotage any sensible discussion about rejoining the EU. There’s nothing Steve and Pat in Hull would enjoy more than annoying AC Grayling and Gary Lineker. But the SNP have failed for decades in their stated mission. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:29 - Jul 5 with 1399 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:24 - Jul 5 by chicoazul |
Don’t get me wrong I agree with you about FBPE. They’re idiotic and they would immediately sabotage any sensible discussion about rejoining the EU. There’s nothing Steve and Pat in Hull would enjoy more than annoying AC Grayling and Gary Lineker. But the SNP have failed for decades in their stated mission. |
As the goal is ultimately is self-determination for Scotland, they at least have been instrumental for getting more powers in Scotland. There are steps and mini-goals along the way.
The Remain/FBPE/People’s Vote didn’t just fail in their main goal. They didn’t even harness the 50+% support to move the dial and positively influence the outcome. In fact, they ensured it went the other way to the hardest Brexit.
Now that’s real failure. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:41 - Jul 5 with 1339 views | Swansea_Blue |
Richard Tice's Reform UK. Sole purpose seems to be to stand against public health measures during a global pandemic. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:41 - Jul 5 with 1335 views | ZXBlue |
Regrettably Corbyn undermined the remain campaign and effectively made it okay for his supporters to vote leave. He would only need to have carried a small percentage of his support with a positive remain message to have swung the referendum. |  | | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:46 - Jul 5 with 1318 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:41 - Jul 5 by Swansea_Blue |
Richard Tice's Reform UK. Sole purpose seems to be to stand against public health measures during a global pandemic. |
Definitely up there for one of the most ignorant movements.
But a failure that achieved the total opposite of what it wanted despite widespread public and media support and the facts being on their side too? And now settling for that?
Brexit really did expose the paucity of our politics and political media on both sides of the debate. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:47 - Jul 5 with 1306 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 12:41 - Jul 5 by ZXBlue |
Regrettably Corbyn undermined the remain campaign and effectively made it okay for his supporters to vote leave. He would only need to have carried a small percentage of his support with a positive remain message to have swung the referendum. |
Gmpf.
Tragic.
I clearly need to change the above: “Brexit really did expose the paucity of our politics, political media and their supporters on both sides of the debate.” [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 12:51]
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:13 - Jul 5 with 1249 views | MattinLondon |
Momentum |  | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:25 - Jul 5 with 1239 views | Guthrum |
Remain wasn't a movement. It wasn't organised or cohesive. Just a preference for maintaining the status quo.
Once Leave had won and Brexit been enacted, Remain no longer had any meaning. You can't fight to stay in something you've already left. It would be a matter of rejoining. Which is an entirely different prospect - probably involving membership of the Euro, not having all the opt-outs and benefits we enjoyed before, plus likely being a very drawn-out process (seing how long it took to get into the EEC in the first place). Far less attractive.
That is why Remain evaporated. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:58 - Jul 5 with 1203 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:25 - Jul 5 by Guthrum |
Remain wasn't a movement. It wasn't organised or cohesive. Just a preference for maintaining the status quo.
Once Leave had won and Brexit been enacted, Remain no longer had any meaning. You can't fight to stay in something you've already left. It would be a matter of rejoining. Which is an entirely different prospect - probably involving membership of the Euro, not having all the opt-outs and benefits we enjoyed before, plus likely being a very drawn-out process (seing how long it took to get into the EEC in the first place). Far less attractive.
That is why Remain evaporated. |
It was a movement in the same way Leave was a movement.So how on earth did Leave achieve the hardest Brexit and electoral success for the worst ever government? it was way beyond their wildest dreams.
Accepting that Remainers made a complete pig's ear of Brexit and the wider political background is important if we're going to learn from this.
Re: it being over so time to move on, the LibDems will keep a rejoin position I'm guessing. As will the SNP and the Greens.
And Starmer pledged rejoining the single market, the customs union and bringing back free movement in 2020 only to completely reverse that now. What's changed apart from realizing how toxic the remain position is for Labour? | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:16 - Jul 5 with 1160 views | Guthrum |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:58 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
It was a movement in the same way Leave was a movement.So how on earth did Leave achieve the hardest Brexit and electoral success for the worst ever government? it was way beyond their wildest dreams.
Accepting that Remainers made a complete pig's ear of Brexit and the wider political background is important if we're going to learn from this.
Re: it being over so time to move on, the LibDems will keep a rejoin position I'm guessing. As will the SNP and the Greens.
And Starmer pledged rejoining the single market, the customs union and bringing back free movement in 2020 only to completely reverse that now. What's changed apart from realizing how toxic the remain position is for Labour? |
Leave did have a core movement - or rather a couple of them. Very well financed ones, with a lot of organisation behind them. To the extent they had to fight over which was considered preeminent for electioneering purposes.
Their supporters in Parliament then managed to sieze control of the Government, purge opponents and push through their own ideas of what Brexit was to be. Helped by the fact the grass roots of that particular party were very pro-Brexit and the system we have gave them the sole choice over who became PM.
Remainers tried hard, particularly through the courts, but were not that well organised and did not have their hands on the levers of power. There is very little one can do to change the course of a government with a large majority, no shame and a willingness to flout the law to suit its purposes.
The result of the 2019 election was, I'm afraid, largely down to Corbyn and his vulnerability to attacks upon background, past associations and perceived extremism. Also his lack of control over his own party. And Labour's complacency about winning key seats in the North.
Remain is no longer an option. We've left. It's a matter of adjusting the Brexit we have by making new agreements, or applying to rejoin. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:21 - Jul 5 with 1141 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:16 - Jul 5 by Guthrum |
Leave did have a core movement - or rather a couple of them. Very well financed ones, with a lot of organisation behind them. To the extent they had to fight over which was considered preeminent for electioneering purposes.
Their supporters in Parliament then managed to sieze control of the Government, purge opponents and push through their own ideas of what Brexit was to be. Helped by the fact the grass roots of that particular party were very pro-Brexit and the system we have gave them the sole choice over who became PM.
Remainers tried hard, particularly through the courts, but were not that well organised and did not have their hands on the levers of power. There is very little one can do to change the course of a government with a large majority, no shame and a willingness to flout the law to suit its purposes.
The result of the 2019 election was, I'm afraid, largely down to Corbyn and his vulnerability to attacks upon background, past associations and perceived extremism. Also his lack of control over his own party. And Labour's complacency about winning key seats in the North.
Remain is no longer an option. We've left. It's a matter of adjusting the Brexit we have by making new agreements, or applying to rejoin. |
Hmmm. I can see you’re not going for the Occam’s razor approach.
There was a hung parliament when Remain screwed up. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:38 - Jul 5 with 1092 views | Kievthegreat |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:58 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
It was a movement in the same way Leave was a movement.So how on earth did Leave achieve the hardest Brexit and electoral success for the worst ever government? it was way beyond their wildest dreams.
Accepting that Remainers made a complete pig's ear of Brexit and the wider political background is important if we're going to learn from this.
Re: it being over so time to move on, the LibDems will keep a rejoin position I'm guessing. As will the SNP and the Greens.
And Starmer pledged rejoining the single market, the customs union and bringing back free movement in 2020 only to completely reverse that now. What's changed apart from realizing how toxic the remain position is for Labour? |
Current Lib Dem position is to renegotiate the trade deal with a view to joining the single market/customs union. Obviously there is more to it, but that's the jist.
They are not explicitly in favour of rejoining ASAP and won't run an election on that, but implicitly amongst members it is a given that the long term future is inside the EU.
I think the rejoin discussion begins in earnest once we get back in the single market and we're effectively halfway there, or when the reality of the pain Brexit is currently bringing finally gets through to a super majority of voters. |  | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:48 - Jul 5 with 1067 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:38 - Jul 5 by Kievthegreat |
Current Lib Dem position is to renegotiate the trade deal with a view to joining the single market/customs union. Obviously there is more to it, but that's the jist.
They are not explicitly in favour of rejoining ASAP and won't run an election on that, but implicitly amongst members it is a given that the long term future is inside the EU.
I think the rejoin discussion begins in earnest once we get back in the single market and we're effectively halfway there, or when the reality of the pain Brexit is currently bringing finally gets through to a super majority of voters. |
Which is fair enough. Why has Starmer dropped his pledge and said a Labour government won’t go for that? It’ll just be a “better” hard Brexit which is pretty much a Tory/Leave line in its empty stupidity.
It’s a leading question because I know it’s about votes. But why wasn’t it about votes when Remain gave us the worst-ever government, not to mention hardening Brexit which was its core area of concern? | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:05 - Jul 5 with 1009 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 14:48 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
Which is fair enough. Why has Starmer dropped his pledge and said a Labour government won’t go for that? It’ll just be a “better” hard Brexit which is pretty much a Tory/Leave line in its empty stupidity.
It’s a leading question because I know it’s about votes. But why wasn’t it about votes when Remain gave us the worst-ever government, not to mention hardening Brexit which was its core area of concern? |
That’s very true - and I’m still purplexed as to why any LEXIT voters ever imagined a hyper-capitalist version of the Conservative party would deliver them a social democratic eutopia outside of the ‘monstrous Globalist EU’. | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:49 - Jul 5 with 946 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:25 - Jul 5 by Guthrum |
Remain wasn't a movement. It wasn't organised or cohesive. Just a preference for maintaining the status quo.
Once Leave had won and Brexit been enacted, Remain no longer had any meaning. You can't fight to stay in something you've already left. It would be a matter of rejoining. Which is an entirely different prospect - probably involving membership of the Euro, not having all the opt-outs and benefits we enjoyed before, plus likely being a very drawn-out process (seing how long it took to get into the EEC in the first place). Far less attractive.
That is why Remain evaporated. |
The biggest failure of Remain/FBPE was not to accept the result of the referendum and spending the next three years trying to stop Brexit, rather than campaign for a softer Brexit that was more representative of the narrow result.
Between 2016 and December 2019 we had a remain majority in Parliament. The ERG were a small minority and a hard Brexit was very easy to achieve.
However, there was an unholy alliance between remainers and hardline Brexiteers to vote down any deal that May put before Parliament. The ERG believing that they could get a hardline ‘No Deal’ and the remainers believing they could get a second referendum.
Had the sensible wings of each side got together in support of May’s deal then we would still be in the customs union and wouldn’t have the issues around Northern Ireland that we are now experiencing.
The number of Labour MP’s I now hear saying how they wished in hindsight that they’d have backed May’s deal, would have for it over the line.
And before anyone starts saying I’m blaming remainers for the mess we are in now, I’m not. I’m just pointing out the hard truth. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:50 - Jul 5 with 945 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:05 - Jul 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That’s very true - and I’m still purplexed as to why any LEXIT voters ever imagined a hyper-capitalist version of the Conservative party would deliver them a social democratic eutopia outside of the ‘monstrous Globalist EU’. |
They didn’t expect theTories to deliver on that.
EU was a separate issue not based on shared political and economic values. I was never a Lexiteer but they were talking about completely different things from the right wingers. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:04 - Jul 5 with 915 views | lowhouseblue |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:49 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
The biggest failure of Remain/FBPE was not to accept the result of the referendum and spending the next three years trying to stop Brexit, rather than campaign for a softer Brexit that was more representative of the narrow result.
Between 2016 and December 2019 we had a remain majority in Parliament. The ERG were a small minority and a hard Brexit was very easy to achieve.
However, there was an unholy alliance between remainers and hardline Brexiteers to vote down any deal that May put before Parliament. The ERG believing that they could get a hardline ‘No Deal’ and the remainers believing they could get a second referendum.
Had the sensible wings of each side got together in support of May’s deal then we would still be in the customs union and wouldn’t have the issues around Northern Ireland that we are now experiencing.
The number of Labour MP’s I now hear saying how they wished in hindsight that they’d have backed May’s deal, would have for it over the line.
And before anyone starts saying I’m blaming remainers for the mess we are in now, I’m not. I’m just pointing out the hard truth. |
this is spot on.
blame is a difficult one - the original sin undoubtedly lies exclusively with the brexiteers. but, as you say, the people who would have preferred a soft brexit to what we have now had a majority in parliament and they still failed to get it. when an objective history gets to be written that will be seen as an immense political failure. for far too many their fury blinded them to taking a deal that was within their grasp. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:05 - Jul 5 with 905 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 15:50 - Jul 5 by Darth_Koont |
They didn’t expect theTories to deliver on that.
EU was a separate issue not based on shared political and economic values. I was never a Lexiteer but they were talking about completely different things from the right wingers. |
Well who did they expect to deliver that given the Tories have been in power for over a decade?
Voting Leave and then crossing fingers for the first (genuinely) left wing UK government for decades is hopelessly naive? | | | |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:09 - Jul 5 with 885 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:05 - Jul 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Well who did they expect to deliver that given the Tories have been in power for over a decade?
Voting Leave and then crossing fingers for the first (genuinely) left wing UK government for decades is hopelessly naive? |
No idea.
I guess like everyone else too caught up in the debate, hardcore Leavers and Remainers, it became an all or nothing position. | |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:16 - Jul 5 with 861 views | Mullet |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 13:13 - Jul 5 by MattinLondon |
Momentum |
That's totally unfair. They convinced a load of people they're left wing and that Jezza could lead. It just wasn't successful outside a small clique equivalent to Brexiteers. |  |
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| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:31 - Jul 5 with 811 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has there been a less successful political movement than Remain/FBPE? on 16:16 - Jul 5 by Mullet |
That's totally unfair. They convinced a load of people they're left wing and that Jezza could lead. It just wasn't successful outside a small clique equivalent to Brexiteers. |
Momentum’s still going though.
Remain has gone the same way as its archetypes like Change UK. I suppose they’re waiting for Ian Dunt to jump on another horse pulling a bandwagon. | |
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