| Our politics is broken part 27898767 08:20 - Sep 9 with 10989 views | GlasgowBlue |
Over the weekend we’ve had Amber Rudd quit the Conservatives because it is morphing into the Brexit party. If the Tory party doesn’t have a home for Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, Nicholas Soames or Amber Rudd but is in the thrall of the ERG then they may as well give the keys to Nigel Farage and be done with it.
Slipping slightly under the radar this weekend we also saw veteran Labour MP John Mann quit the Labour Party because of antisemitism, accusing Corbyn of not only being “an” enabler of antisemitism in the country but “the enabler.
And momentum have deselected backbencher of the year, Diana Johnson, and believe it or not have started proceedings to deselect Kier Starmer of all people.
And then we have both Jo Swinson and Layla Moran from the Lib Dem’s saying that they want a second referendum but if leave win agains they will ignore the result.
Who the hell is a centrist voter who respects democracy expected to vote for?
[Post edited 9 Sep 2019 8:30]
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:25 - Sep 9 with 4146 views | Oldsmoker |
You could spoil your paper - I said sPoil.
Be careful though, as someone drew a big knob on theirs in the European elections and it counted as a vote for the Tories. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:26 - Sep 9 with 4135 views | Guthrum |
Short of starting a new party - there are enough spare moderate MPs floating around at a loose end - it's just a case of holding one's nose and going for the closest to what one wants.
As usual. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:30 - Sep 9 with 4109 views | WeWereZombies |
Nicola?
(Don't worry, you do not need to, looks like she is going to win without our votes anyway...) |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:37 - Sep 9 with 4094 views | giant_stow |
Is that really what the libs said?! |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:48 - Sep 9 with 4071 views | BackToRussia |
IMO the disastre of Brexit can be traced back to AV losing. We need more parties but there is no space for them with FPTP.
Maybe it is time for another referendum before another GE, but on PR/AV, not Brexit. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:58 - Sep 9 with 4034 views | blueislander |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:48 - Sep 9 by BackToRussia |
IMO the disastre of Brexit can be traced back to AV losing. We need more parties but there is no space for them with FPTP.
Maybe it is time for another referendum before another GE, but on PR/AV, not Brexit. |
The last proportional representation motion put to the public vote was worded appallingly, and an awful lot of people abstained because they didn’t understand it. So a very clear and simple motion needs to be found and put to the vote. |  | | |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:00 - Sep 9 with 4020 views | BackToRussia |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:58 - Sep 9 by blueislander |
The last proportional representation motion put to the public vote was worded appallingly, and an awful lot of people abstained because they didn’t understand it. So a very clear and simple motion needs to be found and put to the vote. |
Completely agree. Think people would see the benefit of it more in light of recent events, too. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:09 - Sep 9 with 4004 views | eireblue |
Do the Lib Dem’s mean, continue to campaign for a return to EU membership?
Which would seem an okay thing to do. |  | | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:14 - Sep 9 with 3987 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:30 - Sep 9 by WeWereZombies |
Nicola?
(Don't worry, you do not need to, looks like she is going to win without our votes anyway...) |
In fairness Blackford has provided real opposition in the HOC when it’s often been lacking. But it would need a Damascene moment for me to vote for Scottish independence. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:16 - Sep 9 with 3971 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:14 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
In fairness Blackford has provided real opposition in the HOC when it’s often been lacking. But it would need a Damascene moment for me to vote for Scottish independence. |
Post Brexit.....'Scotland, Stronger in Europe'.....? |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 with 3972 views | Radlett_blue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:09 - Sep 9 by eireblue |
Do the Lib Dem’s mean, continue to campaign for a return to EU membership?
Which would seem an okay thing to do. |
That would be a reasonable policy. Saying that they would also ignore a second referendum if it voted "Leave" is also a policy, but a far less reasonable one. However, the Tories & Labour both stood at the last General election on the basis of respecting the referendum result, but a large number have persistently obstructed it, which to my mind is deceitful and far worse. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 with 3968 views | wkj |
All this and the likelihood being Islamophobic would probably bolster ones chances of being in the cabinet and support of the current government, what a world. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 with 3966 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:37 - Sep 9 by giant_stow |
Is that really what the libs said?! |
I’m afraid so. So a call for a people’s vote is a sham as they have no intention of respecting the result if it goes against them for a second time. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:19 - Sep 9 with 3951 views | Radlett_blue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:58 - Sep 9 by blueislander |
The last proportional representation motion put to the public vote was worded appallingly, and an awful lot of people abstained because they didn’t understand it. So a very clear and simple motion needs to be found and put to the vote. |
The problem with that referendum was that it was on adopting the Alternative Vote system, which is not proportional and can arguably produce a more twisted result than the current first past the post system. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:20 - Sep 9 with 3946 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:00 - Sep 9 by BackToRussia |
Completely agree. Think people would see the benefit of it more in light of recent events, too. |
PR has to happen soon or we will be paralysed in Parliament for decades. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:25 - Sep 9 with 3924 views | Radlett_blue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m afraid so. So a call for a people’s vote is a sham as they have no intention of respecting the result if it goes against them for a second time. |
It will be a "People's Vote" if it results in a "Remain" majority, but if the result is "Leave" it will be an advisory referendum in which a majority of the electorate didn't actually vote to leave. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:25 - Sep 9 with 3925 views | EdwardStone |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m afraid so. So a call for a people’s vote is a sham as they have no intention of respecting the result if it goes against them for a second time. |
The central problem being the irreconcilable conflict between trying to govern by referendums when we live in a representative democracy.....
Listening to elderly two pro leavers having a good old grumble about the state of the nation at a classic car event yesterday, I think that there is an arguable case for removing the franchise from the over 70s unless they can show reasonable cognitive process; you know, a bit like taking their driving licence away |  | | |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:25 - Sep 9 with 3921 views | footers |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 08:58 - Sep 9 by blueislander |
The last proportional representation motion put to the public vote was worded appallingly, and an awful lot of people abstained because they didn’t understand it. So a very clear and simple motion needs to be found and put to the vote. |
"an awful lot of people abstained because they didn’t understand it."
If only they'd done the same with the Brexit referendum. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:28 - Sep 9 with 3914 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:09 - Sep 9 by eireblue |
Do the Lib Dem’s mean, continue to campaign for a return to EU membership?
Which would seem an okay thing to do. |
No. When asked if leave won a second referendum would she vote to implement result she said “No, because I was elected on a firm manifesto pledge for Scotland’s pledge in the UK and Britain’s place in the European Union and that’s what Liberal Democrats are here to do. That is the mandate that we have.”
So calling for a second referendum when she has no intention of abiding by the result is a slap in the face for democracy. Layla Moran said the same this weekend.
Had either of them said that once we left they would campaign for the U.K. to rejoin the EU that would have been perfectly acceptable.
When Foot and Benn lost the EU referendum in 1975 they abided by the democratic vote. It didn’t stop them campaigning to leave the EU and when they took the leadership of Labour in 1979 they put Brexit in their 1983 manifesto. Perfectly honourable. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:30 - Sep 9 with 3896 views | Guthrum |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:20 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
PR has to happen soon or we will be paralysed in Parliament for decades. |
I still resist pure PR, as it both breaks the constituency-representative link and inhibits standing for election as a true Independent. However, there are a number of very workable systems which allow some of the best of both worlds on that.
Primarily, tho, we need to break the emotional and habitual power of the big, monolithic parties over the psyche of the electorate. People who vote Tory/Labour/LibDem because they always have, the region in which they live or grew up, because their parents and grandparents did. In other words, get people thinking about who they are electing and why. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:30 - Sep 9 with 3891 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:17 - Sep 9 by wkj |
All this and the likelihood being Islamophobic would probably bolster ones chances of being in the cabinet and support of the current government, what a world. |
That’s an odd view to hold. Being islamophobic doesn’t bolster anyone’s chances of being in the cabinet anymore than anyone being antisemitic bolsters their chances of being in the shadow cabinet.
Both parties have issues but neither Corbyn or Johnson actively promote people to positions of authority because of their racism. [Post edited 9 Sep 2019 9:33]
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:31 - Sep 9 with 3892 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:28 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
No. When asked if leave won a second referendum would she vote to implement result she said “No, because I was elected on a firm manifesto pledge for Scotland’s pledge in the UK and Britain’s place in the European Union and that’s what Liberal Democrats are here to do. That is the mandate that we have.”
So calling for a second referendum when she has no intention of abiding by the result is a slap in the face for democracy. Layla Moran said the same this weekend.
Had either of them said that once we left they would campaign for the U.K. to rejoin the EU that would have been perfectly acceptable.
When Foot and Benn lost the EU referendum in 1975 they abided by the democratic vote. It didn’t stop them campaigning to leave the EU and when they took the leadership of Labour in 1979 they put Brexit in their 1983 manifesto. Perfectly honourable. |
She also said.
But I think if we had a situation where we had a people's vote on a specific Brexit then if there were to be vote in that scenario in favour of a specific Brexit deal I would absolutely recognise that that was what the country had decided to do. |  |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:34 - Sep 9 with 3866 views | wkj |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:30 - Sep 9 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s an odd view to hold. Being islamophobic doesn’t bolster anyone’s chances of being in the cabinet anymore than anyone being antisemitic bolsters their chances of being in the shadow cabinet.
Both parties have issues but neither Corbyn or Johnson actively promote people to positions of authority because of their racism. [Post edited 9 Sep 2019 9:33]
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Clearly you skimmed over "this and" in my post.
Not an odd view at all sadly, not with Boris, and the conservatives by proxy, palling up with Steve Bannon.
Edit following your edit:
You clearly skimmed over "probably" too. [Post edited 9 Sep 2019 9:37]
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:42 - Sep 9 with 3834 views | Radlett_blue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:25 - Sep 9 by EdwardStone |
The central problem being the irreconcilable conflict between trying to govern by referendums when we live in a representative democracy.....
Listening to elderly two pro leavers having a good old grumble about the state of the nation at a classic car event yesterday, I think that there is an arguable case for removing the franchise from the over 70s unless they can show reasonable cognitive process; you know, a bit like taking their driving licence away |
You could equally logically remove the vote from those below a certain intelligence level.
Remember that the European Court of Human Rights thinks it frightfully important that we allow criminals in prison to be able to vote. | |
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| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:46 - Sep 9 with 3827 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Our politics is broken part 27898767 on 09:34 - Sep 9 by wkj |
Clearly you skimmed over "this and" in my post.
Not an odd view at all sadly, not with Boris, and the conservatives by proxy, palling up with Steve Bannon.
Edit following your edit:
You clearly skimmed over "probably" too. [Post edited 9 Sep 2019 9:37]
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I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. I don’t believe there is the remotest possibility that being Islamophobic would help you advance into the cabinet anymore than I do that being antisemitic would help you advance in the shadow cabinet.
I don’t believe for one minute that either comes into the head of Johnson or Corbyn when selecting those for positions in their respective front benches. | |
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