| Grow up Sunak on 21:47 - Nov 27 with 2798 views | GlasgowBlue |
Very childish and un-statesmanlike. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 22:08 - Nov 27 with 2753 views | LeoMuff |
| Grow up Sunak on 21:47 - Nov 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Very childish and un-statesmanlike. |
Making a stand for our stolen Greek booty, huzzah. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 22:23 - Nov 27 with 2721 views | Guthrum |
He just has very real concerns that the Ottoman Turks are still using the Acropolis as an ammunition store and thus they may be damaged in future sieges of Athens. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 22:34 - Nov 27 with 2695 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 22:08 - Nov 27 by LeoMuff |
Making a stand for our stolen Greek booty, huzzah. |
Not really stolen, more rescued, under the circumstances at the time. Plus legally obtained from the then ruling authorities.
However, this was prior to Greek independence and thus the new nation - which sees itself as a successor state to "Ancient Greece" (never actually a unified polity) - would like their cultural artefacts back. Which is fair enough as they do have the resources, skills and will to preserve them properly. Which negates the reason Lord Elgin took them away in the first place. | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 23:14 - Nov 27 with 2610 views | MattinLondon |
| Grow up Sunak on 22:34 - Nov 27 by Guthrum |
Not really stolen, more rescued, under the circumstances at the time. Plus legally obtained from the then ruling authorities.
However, this was prior to Greek independence and thus the new nation - which sees itself as a successor state to "Ancient Greece" (never actually a unified polity) - would like their cultural artefacts back. Which is fair enough as they do have the resources, skills and will to preserve them properly. Which negates the reason Lord Elgin took them away in the first place. |
Isn’t an argument used against sending them back is that if the marbles are sent back other countries will ask for their treasure back? Not sure whether that’s valid or not. |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 23:49 - Nov 27 with 2568 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 23:14 - Nov 27 by MattinLondon |
Isn’t an argument used against sending them back is that if the marbles are sent back other countries will ask for their treasure back? Not sure whether that’s valid or not. |
That's already happening. Benin bronzes were a big subject a couple of years ago. | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 07:58 - Nov 28 with 2337 views | unbelievablue |
| Grow up Sunak on 23:49 - Nov 27 by Guthrum |
That's already happening. Benin bronzes were a big subject a couple of years ago. |
I work with the libraries & museums team here at UCL and their biggest stressor is a consistent push for the return of artefacts from all corners. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 08:16 - Nov 28 with 2289 views | BlueBoots |
No surprise the Greek PM lost his marbles about the cancellation |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 09:17 - Nov 28 with 2190 views | blueislander |
| Grow up Sunak on 08:16 - Nov 28 by BlueBoots |
No surprise the Greek PM lost his marbles about the cancellation |
New title for Rishi “Defender of the marbles” |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:18 - Nov 28 with 2194 views | Mookamoo |
| Grow up Sunak on 07:58 - Nov 28 by unbelievablue |
I work with the libraries & museums team here at UCL and their biggest stressor is a consistent push for the return of artefacts from all corners. |
When they're as culturally significant to the original country as the Elgin/Parthenon Marbles or the Benin bronzes, I'm not sure I understand the reason for keeping them. Are they worried we will have to return everything? |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:25 - Nov 28 with 2164 views | DJR |
It's cancel culture, plain and simple. |  | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:27 - Nov 28 with 2150 views | Steve_M |
He's going to really enjoy the election campaign isn't he? |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 09:28 - Nov 28 with 2152 views | Swansea_Blue |
I think this is as big as he gets. He comes across as a tiny little man, in stature but more importantly (for a PM especially) in character. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 09:45 - Nov 28 with 2117 views | DJR |
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| Grow up Sunak on 09:52 - Nov 28 with 2076 views | DanTheMan |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:45 - Nov 28 by DJR |
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The only time I can see where we don't want to work on returning these sorts of things is where there is a real risk they'd be either damaged or lost.
But, agree with the above, such a silly issue to try and cause outrage over. Even if the two sides in this case will never agree, just deal with it like adults. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 9:53]
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| Grow up Sunak on 10:06 - Nov 28 with 2022 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 09:18 - Nov 28 by Mookamoo |
When they're as culturally significant to the original country as the Elgin/Parthenon Marbles or the Benin bronzes, I'm not sure I understand the reason for keeping them. Are they worried we will have to return everything? |
That is exactly the problem. It sets a strong precedent.
Also that items may end up locked away, with no access for viewing or study. Or in situations where preservation is not guaranteed (think Bamyan, Palmyra).
Not sure the Elgin Marbles* are culturally significant so much as nationalistically so. The cultural continuity between ancient Athens and modern Greece is very tenuous (likewise, the Kingdom of Benin did not coincide with the modern country of that name). It's more a matter of recognition and national symbology.
* There are bits of Parthenon sculpture in other countries, notably Denmark (who also don't want to give them back). | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 10:40 - Nov 28 with 1961 views | Mookamoo |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:06 - Nov 28 by Guthrum |
That is exactly the problem. It sets a strong precedent.
Also that items may end up locked away, with no access for viewing or study. Or in situations where preservation is not guaranteed (think Bamyan, Palmyra).
Not sure the Elgin Marbles* are culturally significant so much as nationalistically so. The cultural continuity between ancient Athens and modern Greece is very tenuous (likewise, the Kingdom of Benin did not coincide with the modern country of that name). It's more a matter of recognition and national symbology.
* There are bits of Parthenon sculpture in other countries, notably Denmark (who also don't want to give them back). |
Thanks. Not sure a blanket 'no' in all cases is helpful through. If the Greek authorities worked with the British Museum to build a facility for them to repatriated to, making sure preservation isn't an issue, then just because we have them now doesn't mean we should keep them. Seems the decision is being made based on people jobs in UK academia rather than the context of the objects.
From what I understand the Benin bronzes were taken to teach that kingdom a lesson when they fought back - there was a good episode on the Stuff the British Stole podcast. I can understand how that is more tricky if there isn't an exact location/authority to repatriate them to. The Parthenon is different though, so can we not treat that as an individual case? Isn't cultural and national identity pretty interchangeable and Ancient/Modern Greece part of the same linear history? | | | |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:46 - Nov 28 with 1947 views | DJR |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:06 - Nov 28 by Guthrum |
That is exactly the problem. It sets a strong precedent.
Also that items may end up locked away, with no access for viewing or study. Or in situations where preservation is not guaranteed (think Bamyan, Palmyra).
Not sure the Elgin Marbles* are culturally significant so much as nationalistically so. The cultural continuity between ancient Athens and modern Greece is very tenuous (likewise, the Kingdom of Benin did not coincide with the modern country of that name). It's more a matter of recognition and national symbology.
* There are bits of Parthenon sculpture in other countries, notably Denmark (who also don't want to give them back). |
I am no expert but would be inclined to challenge the notion of little cultural continuity between ancient Athens and modern Greece, not least because of the language.
Indeed, I don't think there is anywhere in Europe where a language spoken in the 9th Century BCE is still spoken these days.
Of course, the language has changed over time (as have all languages), but according to something I came across a speaker of Ancient Greek taken from the ancient world and placed into modern Greece probably would not have too much difficulty understanding a Modern Greek speaker.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 10:52]
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| Grow up Sunak on 10:51 - Nov 28 with 1939 views | blueasfook |
Is it just me who thought that the Elgin marbles were actually some marbles? As in the glassy ball type things. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 10:53 - Nov 28 with 1914 views | noggin |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:51 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
Is it just me who thought that the Elgin marbles were actually some marbles? As in the glassy ball type things. |
Bonkers. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 10:59 - Nov 28 with 1883 views | Guthrum |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:40 - Nov 28 by Mookamoo |
Thanks. Not sure a blanket 'no' in all cases is helpful through. If the Greek authorities worked with the British Museum to build a facility for them to repatriated to, making sure preservation isn't an issue, then just because we have them now doesn't mean we should keep them. Seems the decision is being made based on people jobs in UK academia rather than the context of the objects.
From what I understand the Benin bronzes were taken to teach that kingdom a lesson when they fought back - there was a good episode on the Stuff the British Stole podcast. I can understand how that is more tricky if there isn't an exact location/authority to repatriate them to. The Parthenon is different though, so can we not treat that as an individual case? Isn't cultural and national identity pretty interchangeable and Ancient/Modern Greece part of the same linear history? |
Ancient Greece was a broad cultural region, rather than a nation or unified ethnic group. Moreover, from the Roman takeover through Byzantium and Ottoman rule (including bits of it at different times being ruled by Venetians, Genoese, French, Latin Crusaders and various random groups of mercenaries), that's the best part of 2,000 years of dislocation - not only political, but also cultural and even linguistic. Indeed, arguably, it's a longer period than "Ancient Greece" (certainly the high Classical period people most think of*) existed.
A lot of the apparent continuity was down to deliberate cultural construction in a newly-independent country by 19th century Western classically-educated romantics and Greek nationalists who wanted to clearly differentiate themselves from the former rulers. Including how the language was cleaned up and standardised from a number of local dialects.
Some of the damge to the Parthenon marbles happened directly due to cultural changes, when it was converted into a church (during the Roman period) and images of pagan gods defaced. Ironically, 19th and early 20th century British Museum attempts to clean the Marbles did more damage to the fine surface carving than the bits left to get grubby in Athens.
* Which only really lasted a couple of hundred years. | |
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:06 - Nov 28 with 1852 views | J2BLUE |
We should just give them back.
Most of the disputed items mean far more to the countries we took them from. |  |
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:08 - Nov 28 with 1830 views | DJR |
| Grow up Sunak on 10:59 - Nov 28 by Guthrum |
Ancient Greece was a broad cultural region, rather than a nation or unified ethnic group. Moreover, from the Roman takeover through Byzantium and Ottoman rule (including bits of it at different times being ruled by Venetians, Genoese, French, Latin Crusaders and various random groups of mercenaries), that's the best part of 2,000 years of dislocation - not only political, but also cultural and even linguistic. Indeed, arguably, it's a longer period than "Ancient Greece" (certainly the high Classical period people most think of*) existed.
A lot of the apparent continuity was down to deliberate cultural construction in a newly-independent country by 19th century Western classically-educated romantics and Greek nationalists who wanted to clearly differentiate themselves from the former rulers. Including how the language was cleaned up and standardised from a number of local dialects.
Some of the damge to the Parthenon marbles happened directly due to cultural changes, when it was converted into a church (during the Roman period) and images of pagan gods defaced. Ironically, 19th and early 20th century British Museum attempts to clean the Marbles did more damage to the fine surface carving than the bits left to get grubby in Athens.
* Which only really lasted a couple of hundred years. |
You could make the same argument about Stonehenge, given subsequent waves of immigration, languages and rulers, but I don't think that would detract from it being culturally significant to the UK. And I am sure we would be demanding its return had it been taken off to Greece in the 19th Century. [Post edited 28 Nov 2023 11:09]
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| Grow up Sunak on 11:10 - Nov 28 with 1810 views | BlueBadger |
Nice to know that he's focused on the issues that truly matter here. |  |
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