| Rishi's irony 12:02 - Mar 2 with 1326 views | Moriarty |
Advocating the NI protocol deal with the EU, Rishi Sunak said : -
"Northern Ireland is in the unbelievably special position of having privileged access, not just to the UK home market...but also the European Union single market...That's like the world's most exciting economic zone".
Ironically, that was the "privilege" the whole of the UK had before Brexit.
He is asking NI to embrace a position he campaigned against.
He's either a hypocrite or a clown. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 12:03 - Mar 2 with 1295 views | Keno |
or a hypocritical clown? |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 12:13 - Mar 2 with 1251 views | Darth_Koont |
Our whole political industry seems to run on hypocrisy and clownery. But these self-serving opportunists absolutely know it serves their purposes plus they won’t really be held to account anyway.
Rishi is just one of the more competent and polished hypocritical clowns. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 12:14 - Mar 2 with 1247 views | GlasgowBlue |
Doesn’t NI have all of the previous benefits without having to accept freedom of movement?
Had that been on offer then Farage would have been castrated before the referendum and the result would have been entirely different. [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 12:21]
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| Rishi's irony on 12:34 - Mar 2 with 1175 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Rishi's irony on 12:14 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Doesn’t NI have all of the previous benefits without having to accept freedom of movement?
Had that been on offer then Farage would have been castrated before the referendum and the result would have been entirely different. [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 12:21]
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It's hasn't got access to the SM for services, only goods. But yes, it was and still is all about FOM of people, so no doubt this will be seen as superior by some. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 12:50 - Mar 2 with 1101 views | clive_baker |
Let's be honest, nobody genuinely thinks Brexit is good for the UK. Not economically, not socially, not nothing.
Any of these charlatans in a position of power have only aligned themselves with the movement to leave for their own political or financial gain. That's all it comes down to. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 12:51 - Mar 2 with 1094 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 12:13 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Our whole political industry seems to run on hypocrisy and clownery. But these self-serving opportunists absolutely know it serves their purposes plus they won’t really be held to account anyway.
Rishi is just one of the more competent and polished hypocritical clowns. |
It leaves the door wide open for him to be pressed on whether there should be a second referendum. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, he has been pressed on that in the UK. [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:07]
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| Rishi's irony on 12:52 - Mar 2 with 1089 views | BlueNomad |
I'm sure this is going down well in Scotland where they overwhelmingly voted to remain - a key plank of SNP policy. |  | | |
| Rishi's irony on 12:59 - Mar 2 with 1069 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 12:14 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Doesn’t NI have all of the previous benefits without having to accept freedom of movement?
Had that been on offer then Farage would have been castrated before the referendum and the result would have been entirely different. [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 12:21]
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NI voted to remain.
Certain gripes were put forward by the unionist parties to the effect that any restriction on free movement of goods within the UK undermined the Union and they, with ERG, oppose the notion that an EU Court will have jurisdiction over certain matters.
The reality, I think, is that the more fervent unionists are trying to use their stated issues with the protocol as a mechanism to dismantle the Good Friday Agreement. Even before certain unionists had the opportunity to reflect on the new accord or what was in it, they were already picking holes in it - which allows you to draw your own conclusions.
The principle of consent enshrined in GFA suited them when GFA was signed but as the years go by, it could become a thorn in their side. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:06 - Mar 2 with 1055 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 12:50 - Mar 2 by clive_baker |
Let's be honest, nobody genuinely thinks Brexit is good for the UK. Not economically, not socially, not nothing.
Any of these charlatans in a position of power have only aligned themselves with the movement to leave for their own political or financial gain. That's all it comes down to. |
(From the outside looking in), is it not surprising then that there hasn't been a second referendum or a serious political push for that?
Isn't it fair to say that whereas people consented to Brexit , that consent was not an informed consent and the issue should therefore be revisited, particularly in light of the advantages/disadvantages that have become clear since the first vote? [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:08]
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| Rishi's irony on 13:16 - Mar 2 with 988 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Rishi's irony on 12:59 - Mar 2 by Moriarty |
NI voted to remain.
Certain gripes were put forward by the unionist parties to the effect that any restriction on free movement of goods within the UK undermined the Union and they, with ERG, oppose the notion that an EU Court will have jurisdiction over certain matters.
The reality, I think, is that the more fervent unionists are trying to use their stated issues with the protocol as a mechanism to dismantle the Good Friday Agreement. Even before certain unionists had the opportunity to reflect on the new accord or what was in it, they were already picking holes in it - which allows you to draw your own conclusions.
The principle of consent enshrined in GFA suited them when GFA was signed but as the years go by, it could become a thorn in their side. |
That doesn't address what I posted. NI has all the benefits that the UK had pre Brexit but it isn't signed up for Freedom of movement of people.
Cameron tried to get a break on FOM and that was rejected by the EU. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:17 - Mar 2 with 984 views | homer_123 |
| Rishi's irony on 13:06 - Mar 2 by Moriarty |
(From the outside looking in), is it not surprising then that there hasn't been a second referendum or a serious political push for that?
Isn't it fair to say that whereas people consented to Brexit , that consent was not an informed consent and the issue should therefore be revisited, particularly in light of the advantages/disadvantages that have become clear since the first vote? [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:08]
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Who's got the political guile to campaign on that though?
For all parties, it's about short-termism, about votes. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:19 - Mar 2 with 975 views | Guthrum |
| Rishi's irony on 13:06 - Mar 2 by Moriarty |
(From the outside looking in), is it not surprising then that there hasn't been a second referendum or a serious political push for that?
Isn't it fair to say that whereas people consented to Brexit , that consent was not an informed consent and the issue should therefore be revisited, particularly in light of the advantages/disadvantages that have become clear since the first vote? [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:08]
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One problem is having left, the UK would be re-entering at a much lower level, without all the privileges and opt-outs we used to enjoy. There may even be an insistence on joining the single currency.
Plus any push for a second referendum came up against the hard-to-refute argument that it would be anti-democratic to have a second vote on the same question simply because some people didn't like the result of the first one (however justified). The result of the 2019 General Election pretty much put it to bed, with non-regional remainer parties (chiefly the LibDems) getting hammered and Johnson achieving considerable support on a largely Brexit platform. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:20 - Mar 2 with 965 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Rishi's irony on 13:16 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
That doesn't address what I posted. NI has all the benefits that the UK had pre Brexit but it isn't signed up for Freedom of movement of people.
Cameron tried to get a break on FOM and that was rejected by the EU. |
NI doesn't have all the benefits of before. More than the rest of the UK, but it's still in a worse position than before we left the EU.
It doesn't have access to the SM for services, apparently. And these new green lanes for goods are only a slight improvement on the previous NI Protocol arrangements; it still involves more paperwork and bureaucracy than they had before.
But again, yes there isn't FOM as that's the real kicker in all of this. Fundamentally this is all still about creating bogemen out of foreigners to explain or our own failings. [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:21]
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| Rishi's irony on 13:21 - Mar 2 with 959 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rishi's irony on 12:50 - Mar 2 by clive_baker |
Let's be honest, nobody genuinely thinks Brexit is good for the UK. Not economically, not socially, not nothing.
Any of these charlatans in a position of power have only aligned themselves with the movement to leave for their own political or financial gain. That's all it comes down to. |
Spot on.
Brexit was/is a political opportunity, never a social or economic one. Unless you count the socio-economic deterioration UK politicians of all stripes have overseen and subsequently been allowed to blame on foreigners and immigrants. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:47 - Mar 2 with 900 views | clive_baker |
| Rishi's irony on 13:06 - Mar 2 by Moriarty |
(From the outside looking in), is it not surprising then that there hasn't been a second referendum or a serious political push for that?
Isn't it fair to say that whereas people consented to Brexit , that consent was not an informed consent and the issue should therefore be revisited, particularly in light of the advantages/disadvantages that have become clear since the first vote? [Post edited 2 Mar 2023 13:08]
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I think there's a strong argument for your 2nd point. I don't like the idea of passing such decisions to the public full stop, but certainly not with naff all information to go off other than media organisations and politicians with vested interests. At the very least it should've been agreed with regards to the loose terms of an exit, the realities of those terms and independently costed before it was offered as a referendum. Ideally not offering it all. Throwing out a binary question to something so complex was never going to work.
Once that decision had been made, what I would say is I would passionately defend the need to then see it through and protect democracy. Nobody's vote is more or less valuable than anyone else's, and while I hated the outcome, I do think that was important in some form or another.
Moving forward the issue with a rejoin campaign is it would rely on pro leave politicians and voters admitting it's a load of b0llocks (which seems rare) and remain leaning politicians putting their head above the parapet and nailing their colours to that mast for a rejoin campaign. I would be all for it personally, but I'm not sure its likely any time soon. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 13:58 - Mar 2 with 874 views | giant_stow |
| Rishi's irony on 13:47 - Mar 2 by clive_baker |
I think there's a strong argument for your 2nd point. I don't like the idea of passing such decisions to the public full stop, but certainly not with naff all information to go off other than media organisations and politicians with vested interests. At the very least it should've been agreed with regards to the loose terms of an exit, the realities of those terms and independently costed before it was offered as a referendum. Ideally not offering it all. Throwing out a binary question to something so complex was never going to work.
Once that decision had been made, what I would say is I would passionately defend the need to then see it through and protect democracy. Nobody's vote is more or less valuable than anyone else's, and while I hated the outcome, I do think that was important in some form or another.
Moving forward the issue with a rejoin campaign is it would rely on pro leave politicians and voters admitting it's a load of b0llocks (which seems rare) and remain leaning politicians putting their head above the parapet and nailing their colours to that mast for a rejoin campaign. I would be all for it personally, but I'm not sure its likely any time soon. |
I can't see how a *full* rejoin campaign would be successful if it meant promising to join the Euro. This is why the leave vote was such a sad outcome. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 14:12 - Mar 2 with 844 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 13:16 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
That doesn't address what I posted. NI has all the benefits that the UK had pre Brexit but it isn't signed up for Freedom of movement of people.
Cameron tried to get a break on FOM and that was rejected by the EU. |
I'm afraid I don't understand the point you are making.
The issues with the protocol related to goods coming from the UK into Northern Ireland. It had nothing to do with free movement of people. CTA covers that I think. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 14:13 - Mar 2 with 838 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 13:17 - Mar 2 by homer_123 |
Who's got the political guile to campaign on that though?
For all parties, it's about short-termism, about votes. |
A very valid point. It really does seem that politicians (generally), instead of leading, are more interested in trend following. It's almost as if some of them have to check the lie of the land on twitter before expressing a view. | |
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| Rishi's irony on 14:23 - Mar 2 with 820 views | Moriarty |
| Rishi's irony on 13:19 - Mar 2 by Guthrum |
One problem is having left, the UK would be re-entering at a much lower level, without all the privileges and opt-outs we used to enjoy. There may even be an insistence on joining the single currency.
Plus any push for a second referendum came up against the hard-to-refute argument that it would be anti-democratic to have a second vote on the same question simply because some people didn't like the result of the first one (however justified). The result of the 2019 General Election pretty much put it to bed, with non-regional remainer parties (chiefly the LibDems) getting hammered and Johnson achieving considerable support on a largely Brexit platform. |
My own view is that a second referendum isn't anti democratic and there are examples of countries in the EU (Ireland included) having a more than one referendum on given issues.
I think the core argument would be that the consent was not an informed consent and that many issues arose which were not discussed before the vote. No one, as it were, could have foreseen what emerged, so a second vote is warranted.
I think you are right though - that some of the privileges enjoyed by the UK might have to be negotiated before a second vote. The terms of re-entry would have to be clear before a second vote takes place - might give the UK some latitude in their negotiations?
Also, I think you are right in that politicians seem to be shying away from calling for a second vote given the impact it might have on their vote. Is it fair to infer from that that there isn't really an appetite among the general population to rejoin? | |
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| Rishi's irony on 14:42 - Mar 2 with 782 views | BiGDonnie |
| Rishi's irony on 12:03 - Mar 2 by Keno |
or a hypocritical clown? |
I prefer the word c(_)nt. |  |
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| Rishi's irony on 14:45 - Mar 2 with 774 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Rishi's irony on 12:34 - Mar 2 by Swansea_Blue |
It's hasn't got access to the SM for services, only goods. But yes, it was and still is all about FOM of people, so no doubt this will be seen as superior by some. |
There is effective FOM between NI and the Republic, though I don't think is as incendiary an issue there as for some elderly racists in the UK. |  | | |
| Rishi's irony on 14:54 - Mar 2 with 736 views | Churchman |
| Rishi's irony on 14:45 - Mar 2 by Freddies_Ears |
There is effective FOM between NI and the Republic, though I don't think is as incendiary an issue there as for some elderly racists in the UK. |
As posted in another thread, there is FOM between ROI and the rest of the U.K. under CTA which long pre-dates the EU. It means that people have the same access to services, employment etc, even the right to vote in some elections. |  | | |
| Rishi's irony on 14:56 - Mar 2 with 730 views | mylittletown |
| Rishi's irony on 14:54 - Mar 2 by Churchman |
As posted in another thread, there is FOM between ROI and the rest of the U.K. under CTA which long pre-dates the EU. It means that people have the same access to services, employment etc, even the right to vote in some elections. |
There is indeed, as you describe, an effective freedom of movement between he UK and Ireland under the CTA.
However Irish people are mostly white and mostly native English speakers, so the bigots don't really mind them. |  | | |
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