| What has/does TWTD make 09:51 - Oct 23 with 18245 views | chicoazul |
…of Morsy not wearing the rainbow armband on Friday? |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 08:59 - Oct 24 with 2100 views | DJR |
| What has/does TWTD make on 08:45 - Oct 24 by chicoazul |
Respectfully, what is the point you are making here? “This is bad here is something worse”? This sounds like an attempt to deflect attention from the point of the OP.
I hope we hear from the club and Morsy soon with more detail on why he didn’t wear it. |
I said that Morsy's action is disappointing, but I do think there needs to be a sense of proportion, and I am not sure that pressing Morsy on the reasons for his action will do anyone any good. |  | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 09:08 - Oct 24 with 2070 views | backinbeige |
| What has/does TWTD make on 08:59 - Oct 24 by DJR |
I said that Morsy's action is disappointing, but I do think there needs to be a sense of proportion, and I am not sure that pressing Morsy on the reasons for his action will do anyone any good. |
I think having that conversation will do a lot of good |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 09:14 - Oct 24 with 2062 views | DJR |
| What has/does TWTD make on 09:08 - Oct 24 by backinbeige |
I think having that conversation will do a lot of good |
I suppose the only way we might find out is if a journalist raises the question but I imagine the club will be well prepared and will come back with something rather anodyne. The problem it seems to me is that if the real reason is something unpalatable would it really be in anyone's interest for such a view to be given an airing? | | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 09:39 - Oct 24 with 2029 views | bluejacko |
Four pages on a complete non story! |  | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:29 - Oct 24 with 1975 views | GeoffSentence |
| What has/does TWTD make on 09:39 - Oct 24 by bluejacko |
Four pages on a complete non story! |
Wait until we get to Remembrance month. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 11:30 - Oct 24 with 1976 views | 44_not_out |
I believe every club will have a designated match for the campaign, as it is a week of action. So I am assuming Port Vale’s will be Tuesday. SM is suspended so hopefully our captain on the night will wear it and show support to a worthy campaign.
Lets hope it’s an oversight and the club didn’t receive the armband. However, IF (and we don’t know) SM did refuse, I think it is poor by him (I think we are still allowed an opinion on here) | | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:54 - Oct 24 with 1953 views | 44_not_out |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:29 - Oct 24 by GeoffSentence |
Wait until we get to Remembrance month. |
Those giving the ‘it doesn’t matter’ will internally combust if SM (or any other player) refused to wear a poppy. | | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:57 - Oct 24 with 1935 views | chicoazul |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:30 - Oct 24 by 44_not_out |
I believe every club will have a designated match for the campaign, as it is a week of action. So I am assuming Port Vale’s will be Tuesday. SM is suspended so hopefully our captain on the night will wear it and show support to a worthy campaign.
Lets hope it’s an oversight and the club didn’t receive the armband. However, IF (and we don’t know) SM did refuse, I think it is poor by him (I think we are still allowed an opinion on here) |
Well several people have abused and insulted me for even daring to raise the question so who knows if you are! | |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 12:00 - Oct 24 with 1918 views | noggin |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:54 - Oct 24 by 44_not_out |
Those giving the ‘it doesn’t matter’ will internally combust if SM (or any other player) refused to wear a poppy. |
Why? I won't. (wear a poppy or complain if any player doesn't) [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 12:01]
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| What has/does TWTD make on 12:00 - Oct 24 with 1921 views | monty_radio |
If it is because of religious beliefs then I’m dead against it, as gives someone a free pass to allow .................
The corollary of that is that I / my State defines which religious mores are allowed to flourish and what scope they can be afforded.. | |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 12:16 - Oct 24 with 1889 views | J2BLUE |
| What has/does TWTD make on 00:34 - Oct 24 by backinbeige |
I’m still reeling from a number of comments in this thread.
“It’s his choice”
“I don’t care”
“It doesn’t matter”
When I saw the subject I assumed the response would be in universal support of any initiative around inclusivity. Not the opposite.
It does matter, you should care and while it is his choice, you would be alarmed at anyone let alone the club captain going out of their way not to lend their support to an initiative like this.
Religion is hugely important in many people’s lives. It shapes our beliefs, values, views and morals. But if your religion is intolerant towards homosexuality; when faced with an impossible choice where you’re going to make someone cross, why would you choose to support the institution with the problematic views and not the people striving for some kind of parity.
To anyone who thinks this isn’t their problem:
Remind yourself why we have this initiative. Gay people don’t choose to be gay. We (society) have previously decided that’s their flaw. Decided that they should be mocked, subjects of abuse and not welcome. This isn’t a level playing field.
Attitudes are now changing, but they’re not changing by themselves. We need to challenge views and to go out of our way to show everyone that they are welcome. Yes the armband is tokenistic, it is virtue signalling. But we need these signals. We need conversations. We need shows of solidarity. It’s with these shows of solidarity that we increase the speed of change.
Groups such as the Rainbow Tractors don’t exist because there is no need. There is a need.
If you are religious and someone has refused to support your religion’s stance against homosexuality, you can (hopefully) understand how this might have happened. If you are a gay Ipswich fan, and someone has actively gone out of their way to shun you, when you might have lived experience and personal experience of bullying/abuse/just the relentless drudgery of having to come out every time you have a conversation with someone new, that show of rejection must be extremely upsetting.
To anyone who feels this is nothing to do with you, or someone else’s choice and not your problem, I would encourage you to challenge their views and challenge your own. [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 0:39]
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He hasn't gone out of his way. He just hasn't worn the armband. He didn't refuse to play int the game or walk on the pitch with rainbow corner flags. He quietly went about his business and remained silent. I would have a completely different view if he had spoken out against it. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 12:28 - Oct 24 with 1856 views | DJR |
| What has/does TWTD make on 11:57 - Oct 24 by chicoazul |
Well several people have abused and insulted me for even daring to raise the question so who knows if you are! |
Certainly not me. One of my posts was extolling the virtue of freedom of expression (within limits), and one of the things I find distasteful about TWTD is the abuse that some people get for expressing an opinion. But I understand TWTD is nothing like as bad as, say, Twitter for abuse. Sadly, social media allows people to say things to people that they would not be brave enough to say to their face. [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 12:31]
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| What has/does TWTD make on 12:50 - Oct 24 with 1835 views | HighgateBlue |
Wearing the armband is a political statement. It is one with which I whole-heartedly agree. I am very disappointed that Morsy seemingly doesn't share that view.
However, he has a right not to express this political statement, and I would never want a situation in which a club or league could compel players or staff to make political statements of any kind.
In referring to it as a political statement, I am not trying to say that I consider that this is a knife-edge issue or a hard moral question. For me, I want to support diversity, difference, respect and human rights. However, in a democracy everyone has a right to disgaree with me. He is not advocating hatred or violence, which are rightly criminalised. |  | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 13:13 - Oct 24 with 1786 views | chicoazul |
| What has/does TWTD make on 12:16 - Oct 24 by J2BLUE |
He hasn't gone out of his way. He just hasn't worn the armband. He didn't refuse to play int the game or walk on the pitch with rainbow corner flags. He quietly went about his business and remained silent. I would have a completely different view if he had spoken out against it. |
But we don’t know *why* he didn’t wear it so he *might* have gone out of his way. | |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 14:47 - Oct 24 with 1726 views | Vic |
No problem with him not wearing it - depending on what his reasons are. If it's because he has an irrational dislike of people in the LGBTQ community then he's wrong. If for some reason he doesn't agree with being made to support something he doesn't agree with then I defend his right not to do it.
As others have said, tolerance has to go both ways; in a free society with freedom of thought and speech it is (and should remain) permissible to disagree with others. It is not tolerant to to silence those who peacefully disagree with you.
Just my 10p's worth. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 14:48 - Oct 24 with 1725 views | Bluearmy71 |
| What has/does TWTD make on 07:53 - Oct 24 by backinbeige |
If you are raised by people holding certain beliefs that you then adopt, you have adopted them because of your environment.
If you change your environment then your beliefs can also change.
You can change your prejudiced views in later life if you change your surroundings. If it was your surroundings that caused you to adopt them in the first place. There is a degree of personal choice.
You can’t decide to stop being gay.
Think about what you are saying.
Your views are extremely damaging.
We unfortunately need initiatives such as the armbands, laces, support groups, awareness campaigns, abuse hotlines, safe spaces. We don’t need people shunning them. We don’t need the club captain shunning them. |
See here we are again, you are failing to see my point entirely which is that those that are raised ( a 5 year old Muslim has no idea what adoption of belief is) with racism, homophobic, Muslims etc etc whatever "group" they belong to one is asking them to change who they are so surely if one wants to be accepted for who one is then no matter how much we dislike it one has to accept them for who they are, or maybe that's a little too idealistic for people??
People do have the right to dislike as much as the right to like!!
And for some (I won't be using derogatory terms) being gay is/has been a choice, they have gone from a same sex relationship to a straight relationship without ever thinking of being involved with the same sex in any way again, I'm not implying its common place but it does happen!!
"Your views are extremely damaging" Well they are my views and I'll just be accepting of the fact that some people don't like them!! |  | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:49 - Oct 24 with 1721 views | DanTheMan |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:48 - Oct 24 by Bluearmy71 |
See here we are again, you are failing to see my point entirely which is that those that are raised ( a 5 year old Muslim has no idea what adoption of belief is) with racism, homophobic, Muslims etc etc whatever "group" they belong to one is asking them to change who they are so surely if one wants to be accepted for who one is then no matter how much we dislike it one has to accept them for who they are, or maybe that's a little too idealistic for people??
People do have the right to dislike as much as the right to like!!
And for some (I won't be using derogatory terms) being gay is/has been a choice, they have gone from a same sex relationship to a straight relationship without ever thinking of being involved with the same sex in any way again, I'm not implying its common place but it does happen!!
"Your views are extremely damaging" Well they are my views and I'll just be accepting of the fact that some people don't like them!! |
" being gay is/has been a choice"
No. Just no. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 14:55 - Oct 24 with 1715 views | Bluearmy71 |
| What has/does TWTD make on 12:50 - Oct 24 by HighgateBlue |
Wearing the armband is a political statement. It is one with which I whole-heartedly agree. I am very disappointed that Morsy seemingly doesn't share that view.
However, he has a right not to express this political statement, and I would never want a situation in which a club or league could compel players or staff to make political statements of any kind.
In referring to it as a political statement, I am not trying to say that I consider that this is a knife-edge issue or a hard moral question. For me, I want to support diversity, difference, respect and human rights. However, in a democracy everyone has a right to disgaree with me. He is not advocating hatred or violence, which are rightly criminalised. |
I'm of the opinion that politics has no place in football or any sport for that matter, unfortunately you are right and it very much is. | | | |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:57 - Oct 24 with 1710 views | Bluearmy71 |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:49 - Oct 24 by DanTheMan |
" being gay is/has been a choice"
No. Just no. |
Sorry Dan but yes just yes!!
Oh and please quote me fully, you conveniently missed out the "for some" which gives the quote proper context and not inferring I mean all gay people.
Don't quote me to suit your need!! [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 15:00]
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:05 - Oct 24 with 1694 views | Kieran_Knows |
Before opening this thread, I thought to myself 'I know exactly what's going to be said in this thread, should I even bother opening it' ...
5 minutes later having read through all the comments, I was right. 5 minutes of my life I won't get back. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:06 - Oct 24 with 1680 views | chicoazul |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:48 - Oct 24 by Bluearmy71 |
See here we are again, you are failing to see my point entirely which is that those that are raised ( a 5 year old Muslim has no idea what adoption of belief is) with racism, homophobic, Muslims etc etc whatever "group" they belong to one is asking them to change who they are so surely if one wants to be accepted for who one is then no matter how much we dislike it one has to accept them for who they are, or maybe that's a little too idealistic for people??
People do have the right to dislike as much as the right to like!!
And for some (I won't be using derogatory terms) being gay is/has been a choice, they have gone from a same sex relationship to a straight relationship without ever thinking of being involved with the same sex in any way again, I'm not implying its common place but it does happen!!
"Your views are extremely damaging" Well they are my views and I'll just be accepting of the fact that some people don't like them!! |
“Being gay is…a choice”
And there we are. It was only a matter of time. | |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:26 - Oct 24 with 1634 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:48 - Oct 24 by Bluearmy71 |
See here we are again, you are failing to see my point entirely which is that those that are raised ( a 5 year old Muslim has no idea what adoption of belief is) with racism, homophobic, Muslims etc etc whatever "group" they belong to one is asking them to change who they are so surely if one wants to be accepted for who one is then no matter how much we dislike it one has to accept them for who they are, or maybe that's a little too idealistic for people??
People do have the right to dislike as much as the right to like!!
And for some (I won't be using derogatory terms) being gay is/has been a choice, they have gone from a same sex relationship to a straight relationship without ever thinking of being involved with the same sex in any way again, I'm not implying its common place but it does happen!!
"Your views are extremely damaging" Well they are my views and I'll just be accepting of the fact that some people don't like them!! |
Being gay is not a choice. If you are referring to people who have gone from being in a male/female marriage/partnership and into a gay relationship, a lot of these people have felt compelled to do the former due to pressure to conform to what society has for far too long deemed "normal" or for because of their religious upbringing.
Many have mental anguish during that period because they have felt unable to live the life that they would like to. The reason we are actually seeing more people come out after being in a male/female relationship is because society has moved on.
Nobody chooses to be gay. |  |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:30 - Oct 24 with 1626 views | Bluearmy71 |
| What has/does TWTD make on 15:06 - Oct 24 by chicoazul |
“Being gay is…a choice”
And there we are. It was only a matter of time. |
Same to you as I said to Dan.
If you are going to quote me then quote me fully and not just snippets to suit your need.
Quoting me in full and in its proper context means your "And there we are, it was only a matter of time." comment is moot. [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 15:34]
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:32 - Oct 24 with 1621 views | chicoazul |
| What has/does TWTD make on 15:30 - Oct 24 by Bluearmy71 |
Same to you as I said to Dan.
If you are going to quote me then quote me fully and not just snippets to suit your need.
Quoting me in full and in its proper context means your "And there we are, it was only a matter of time." comment is moot. [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 15:34]
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Proper context being what you think, not what actually is, yes? Just so we’re clear. | |
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| What has/does TWTD make on 15:39 - Oct 24 with 1600 views | DanTheMan |
| What has/does TWTD make on 14:57 - Oct 24 by Bluearmy71 |
Sorry Dan but yes just yes!!
Oh and please quote me fully, you conveniently missed out the "for some" which gives the quote proper context and not inferring I mean all gay people.
Don't quote me to suit your need!! [Post edited 24 Oct 2022 15:00]
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There is no "for some", there's not more context needed for it. Sexuality is not a choice. | |
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