| Labour Manifesto on 07:59 - Nov 22 with 3234 views | jimmyvet |
| Labour Manifesto on 07:14 - Nov 22 by baxterbasics |
It’s an astonishing, and at times scary work of fantasy fiction.
They run out of money by the end of page 2.
There is no way that even half of this can be paid for with the proposed taxes on ‘the rich’ and business, as the IFS have already pointed out. As that money leaves or gets hidden out of sight the burden will fall on many more shoulders. I dread to think what will happen to the value of my pension which is all I have to rely on in the future (I don’t own property).
Silly Allen likes it though (see Twitter). [Post edited 22 Nov 2019 7:18]
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Yes once you have slept on it had a nights sleep and reflected the picture of the sheer scale of horror for those who will end up paying for it is terrifying. It won’t be the billionaires or multi-millionaires it will your average hard working person.
That said I don’t believe for one moment the vast majority of us hard working Uk citizens will be so daft as to fall for this. |  | |  |
| Labour Manifesto on 10:47 - Nov 22 with 3184 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 14:16 - Nov 21 by J2BLUE |
Damn there is some high level bribery in that document. Fair play. |
Why do you assume it's just bribery and not what they genuinely aim to do?
I should like to remind people that historically the Tories have lied in their manifesto about 4 to 1 times compared to Labour. |  |
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| Labour Manifesto on 10:54 - Nov 22 with 3175 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 15:13 - Nov 21 by Jon_456 |
A choice for who though? The employer or the employee? |
The employee, obviously. You either choose to do overtime or you don't.
Am I missing something? | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 10:58 - Nov 22 with 3163 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 15:23 - Nov 21 by StokieBlue |
Well they haven't covered any of them in anything I've heard so I don't know. In fact I've only ever heard the tagline soundbite.
Why don't you give us their analysis and let us know what they are planning to do?
You really are very defensive nowadays - I even said I had no objection in principle but had some reservations. Even a question on a policy now receives a rebuke - saying "you don't think they have thought about it" simply isn't good enough when discussing policies.
SB [Post edited 21 Nov 2019 15:25]
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I wasn't meaning to be defensive. The problem with the written word is it's often hard to discern intonation, emphasis, mood etc.
I was genuinely asking, do you think they haven't thought of that? I don't know the answer, but would assume they would have. Whatever you think of them, they're not stupid! But no, I don't know. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 10:59 - Nov 22 with 3161 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Labour Manifesto on 10:54 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
The employee, obviously. You either choose to do overtime or you don't.
Am I missing something? |
Yes - that it has to be made available first |  |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:04 - Nov 22 with 3147 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 15:55 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Full employment is a term to mean there is enough overall demand in the economy for everyone who wants a job to have one. |
Does this include all the fudging of the figures - the long term unemployed being taken off the list, zero hours contracts with no hours, the fact that people living in Hartlepool can't get to London where the jobs are etc. etc?
I know you've lost the plot a bit recently but suggesting there's no unemployment and/or doesn't need to be is one of the more bonkers things i've seen you write. Do you need a holiday? | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:05 - Nov 22 with 3144 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 15:56 - Nov 21 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Which then flips the argument.
Those who dismissed the IFS when they agreed with the costings last time around are using it as a stick to beat them with. Which way round would they like it? |
Whichever way fits their agenda. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:10 - Nov 22 with 3129 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:04 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
Does this include all the fudging of the figures - the long term unemployed being taken off the list, zero hours contracts with no hours, the fact that people living in Hartlepool can't get to London where the jobs are etc. etc?
I know you've lost the plot a bit recently but suggesting there's no unemployment and/or doesn't need to be is one of the more bonkers things i've seen you write. Do you need a holiday? |
the uk's unemployment rate, at 3.8%, is the lowest rate for 45 years. there is no question that it is full employment. have you heard anyone mention unemployment as a policy issue in this election?
'full employment' does not imply that there is no unemployment. it means that the unemployment that exists relates to normal job turnover and people who don't want to take the jobs on offer. the number of unemployed ic currently matched by a similar number of unfilled vacancies. an unemployment rate of zero is impossible. 3.8% is as low as it is likely to get. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:11 - Nov 22 with 3127 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:05 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
Whichever way fits their agenda. |
As was pointed out yesterday that poster was wrong though, the IFS disputed the costings in 2017 too | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:16 - Nov 22 with 3117 views | Ryorry |
| Labour Manifesto on 07:14 - Nov 22 by baxterbasics |
It’s an astonishing, and at times scary work of fantasy fiction.
They run out of money by the end of page 2.
There is no way that even half of this can be paid for with the proposed taxes on ‘the rich’ and business, as the IFS have already pointed out. As that money leaves or gets hidden out of sight the burden will fall on many more shoulders. I dread to think what will happen to the value of my pension which is all I have to rely on in the future (I don’t own property).
Silly Allen likes it though (see Twitter). [Post edited 22 Nov 2019 7:18]
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I can see most of the "bullionaires" (Freudian typo which I'll leave in place!) leaving the country to live in some tax-friendlier place too.
Really like a lot of what's in the manifesto, but it comes across as a Christmas bribe with Santa leaving an entire sackful at the bottom of every chimney. Too much in one fell swoop creates worry and suspicion amongst voters.
Generally, just as an aside, the Birmingham students JC delivered the speech to yesterday had me laughing out loud - on the one hand applauding him when he castigated the Tories for trying to flog the NHS to Trump, & then after his next sentence, chanting all Trump-like - "Not For Sale"! |  |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:19 - Nov 22 with 3109 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 16:29 - Nov 21 by sparks |
Indeed. A person ought to be entitled to deal how they choose with their own property.
The classic is a Landlord who has hit hard times, has a divorce, unexpected expenses etc and needs to sell or move back into the old flat thats being rented.
These proposals will end up with people getting repossessed when they cant end a tenancy and sell. |
While you're right to question this, I'd assume there would be provision for common sense to be used, thus avoiding your worst case scenario. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:23 - Nov 22 with 3105 views | longtimefan |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:04 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
Does this include all the fudging of the figures - the long term unemployed being taken off the list, zero hours contracts with no hours, the fact that people living in Hartlepool can't get to London where the jobs are etc. etc?
I know you've lost the plot a bit recently but suggesting there's no unemployment and/or doesn't need to be is one of the more bonkers things i've seen you write. Do you need a holiday? |
I think you need to google the definition of Full Employment in economic terms before you start insulting people. | | | |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:25 - Nov 22 with 3101 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 17:47 - Nov 21 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So you are questioning whether they are stressed enough?
Or you are questioning whether extending the day and increasing workload for them and their teachers is going to increase it?
Please EXPLAIN what you think you are arguing!
To clarify "children are already stressed enough with the length of days currently as it is" does not mean the cause of that stress is the length of the day which is what you argued I had said. I didn't.
Glad you are considering an apology but until you make it, I can't really accept it. |
That's exactly how I read it too. If "children are already stressed enough with the length of days currently as it is" DOESN'T mean "the cause of that stress is the length of the day" then I don't know what does. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:32 - Nov 22 with 3091 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 07:14 - Nov 22 by baxterbasics |
It’s an astonishing, and at times scary work of fantasy fiction.
They run out of money by the end of page 2.
There is no way that even half of this can be paid for with the proposed taxes on ‘the rich’ and business, as the IFS have already pointed out. As that money leaves or gets hidden out of sight the burden will fall on many more shoulders. I dread to think what will happen to the value of my pension which is all I have to rely on in the future (I don’t own property).
Silly Allen likes it though (see Twitter). [Post edited 22 Nov 2019 7:18]
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"They run out of money by the end of page 2."
Utter nonsense. I assume you've costed it? | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:35 - Nov 22 with 3087 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 10:59 - Nov 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Yes - that it has to be made available first |
That's the whole point isn't it? The work will still need to be done - so the people who want the extra overtime will do it*... those that value more quality time won't (and both these can change as and when circumstances dictate).
Currently these are fixed. There's no leeway.
*I'm obviously talking in general terms here. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:36 - Nov 22 with 3083 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:10 - Nov 22 by lowhouseblue |
the uk's unemployment rate, at 3.8%, is the lowest rate for 45 years. there is no question that it is full employment. have you heard anyone mention unemployment as a policy issue in this election?
'full employment' does not imply that there is no unemployment. it means that the unemployment that exists relates to normal job turnover and people who don't want to take the jobs on offer. the number of unemployed ic currently matched by a similar number of unfilled vacancies. an unemployment rate of zero is impossible. 3.8% is as low as it is likely to get. |
You've just repeated Glassers' point in a more drawn out way, and haven't answered any of mine in the post you were replying to. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:38 - Nov 22 with 3081 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:16 - Nov 22 by Ryorry |
I can see most of the "bullionaires" (Freudian typo which I'll leave in place!) leaving the country to live in some tax-friendlier place too.
Really like a lot of what's in the manifesto, but it comes across as a Christmas bribe with Santa leaving an entire sackful at the bottom of every chimney. Too much in one fell swoop creates worry and suspicion amongst voters.
Generally, just as an aside, the Birmingham students JC delivered the speech to yesterday had me laughing out loud - on the one hand applauding him when he castigated the Tories for trying to flog the NHS to Trump, & then after his next sentence, chanting all Trump-like - "Not For Sale"! |
Chanting in that way has existed long long before Trump. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:39 - Nov 22 with 3076 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:23 - Nov 22 by longtimefan |
I think you need to google the definition of Full Employment in economic terms before you start insulting people. |
I think, like lowhouse, you need to address the points in my post rather than avoiding them.
Unless you genuinely think there's no fudging of the figures? | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:42 - Nov 22 with 3067 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:36 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
You've just repeated Glassers' point in a more drawn out way, and haven't answered any of mine in the post you were replying to. |
because your post was a bit dim and it's not for me to have to reinvent the wheel just for you.
everyone who has an interest in macro economics accepts a definition of full employment - and I have just given that to you. if you're interested use the internet, or invent your own completely different definition, but that then that makes sensible discussion difficult. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:45 - Nov 22 with 3057 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:42 - Nov 22 by lowhouseblue |
because your post was a bit dim and it's not for me to have to reinvent the wheel just for you.
everyone who has an interest in macro economics accepts a definition of full employment - and I have just given that to you. if you're interested use the internet, or invent your own completely different definition, but that then that makes sensible discussion difficult. |
Again you've repeated yourself and avoided my points.
Forget about the definition of full employment - we get it. Address how the government comes by those figures and stop swerving. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:47 - Nov 22 with 3052 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:35 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
That's the whole point isn't it? The work will still need to be done - so the people who want the extra overtime will do it*... those that value more quality time won't (and both these can change as and when circumstances dictate).
Currently these are fixed. There's no leeway.
*I'm obviously talking in general terms here. |
Not if it increases productivity as suggested... 😉
There will definitely be some areas (ie. manufacturing) where it will be needed, but then there could still be an impact. For example there would be no guarantees that everyone would take overtime, so a factory that knew they needed x number of extra people and hours would likely have to over-resource and overtime would be first come first served, so no guarantee that those that need those hours would get them
I don’t dislike the proposal generally but that doesn’t mean there aren’t obvious issues with it too, nor that it necessarily would work for everyone. Plus I do think it’s a bit generous to just assume that it’s been fully thought through - strikes me as being far more likely a nice election pledge that Labour will worry about how it’s implemented in the unlikely event they win the election [Post edited 22 Nov 2019 11:48]
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| Labour Manifesto on 11:50 - Nov 22 with 3046 views | longtimefan |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:39 - Nov 22 by BrixtonBlue |
I think, like lowhouse, you need to address the points in my post rather than avoiding them.
Unless you genuinely think there's no fudging of the figures? |
I wasn't commenting on the validity of the figures I was commenting on your approach of insulting someone based on your ignorance of the meaning of the term "Full Employment". | | | |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:56 - Nov 22 with 3035 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:47 - Nov 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Not if it increases productivity as suggested... 😉
There will definitely be some areas (ie. manufacturing) where it will be needed, but then there could still be an impact. For example there would be no guarantees that everyone would take overtime, so a factory that knew they needed x number of extra people and hours would likely have to over-resource and overtime would be first come first served, so no guarantee that those that need those hours would get them
I don’t dislike the proposal generally but that doesn’t mean there aren’t obvious issues with it too, nor that it necessarily would work for everyone. Plus I do think it’s a bit generous to just assume that it’s been fully thought through - strikes me as being far more likely a nice election pledge that Labour will worry about how it’s implemented in the unlikely event they win the election [Post edited 22 Nov 2019 11:48]
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You might be right. There's no doubt it wouldn't be completely straightforward but in principle it's a decent idea. | |
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| Labour Manifesto on 12:22 - Nov 22 with 3013 views | baxterbasics |
| Labour Manifesto on 11:16 - Nov 22 by Ryorry |
I can see most of the "bullionaires" (Freudian typo which I'll leave in place!) leaving the country to live in some tax-friendlier place too.
Really like a lot of what's in the manifesto, but it comes across as a Christmas bribe with Santa leaving an entire sackful at the bottom of every chimney. Too much in one fell swoop creates worry and suspicion amongst voters.
Generally, just as an aside, the Birmingham students JC delivered the speech to yesterday had me laughing out loud - on the one hand applauding him when he castigated the Tories for trying to flog the NHS to Trump, & then after his next sentence, chanting all Trump-like - "Not For Sale"! |
For all the attempts by the left to tie Boris in with Trump, I've been noting similarities between Momentum and Trump support since the kick off of the 2017 election. Particularly in the attacks on journalists and the general threat to the press. It's the same populism from a different angle. |  |
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| Labour Manifesto on 12:53 - Nov 22 with 2984 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Labour Manifesto on 12:22 - Nov 22 by baxterbasics |
For all the attempts by the left to tie Boris in with Trump, I've been noting similarities between Momentum and Trump support since the kick off of the 2017 election. Particularly in the attacks on journalists and the general threat to the press. It's the same populism from a different angle. |
Given Corbyn is the most smeared politician in British history - and the right-wing press bias is pretty blatant even for a neutral to admit - castigation of the press is fully justified. The press in this country, by and large, is an absolute disgrace. | |
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