| Not antisemitic 07:26 - Sep 23 with 19943 views | GlasgowBlue |
So the Labour Party conference has started and there’s absolutely no sign of antisemitism on day one. None at all.
[Post edited 23 Sep 2019 7:32]
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| Not antisemitic on 09:06 - Sep 23 with 2754 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not antisemitic on 09:01 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
And did you read them. Because even before I bother my arse explaining why 1, 2, 4 and 5 are antisemitic no 3 sticks out like a sore thumb. Referring to Israel as a racist endeavour.
You really didn’t read your own link did you? |
....we did this endeavour thing and the implications of the current state of this endeavour days ago....as usual you went quiet when it got uncomfortable. |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:15 - Sep 23 with 2742 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not antisemitic on 09:03 - Sep 23 by monytowbray |
I'm sat here actually looking for this answer too. Would appreciate it beyond getting into fisticuffs with another poster (which let's be honest, you knew would happen on this post). |
Ok.
Number one is a cartoon by an antisemite. His work is frequently Antisemitic. British Jewish organisations have been complaining about antisemitism within the Labour Party. The cartoonist is saying that this is being directed from Israel because Corbyn is pro Palestinian.
Number two is accusing a British Jewish organisation of making up antisemitism against British Jews from people within the Labour Party. It’s full of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. It also accuses the JLM of dual loyalty. 2. Pete Gregson runs the group behind this flyer. He’s a Holocaust revisionist who has been expelled from Unite.
Number three we’ve done. The IHRA definition with all of its examples says calling Israel a racist endeavour is antisemitic.
Number four. Heckling a Jew for calling out racism. Seriously? Imagine if a Muslim was heckled at the Tory party conference for calling out Islamophobia?
Number five. Hosting a meeting featuring four people who have all been expelled for antisemitism. Again, seriously? | |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:16 - Sep 23 with 2737 views | footers |
Uh oh!
Awful lot of gymnastics going on here.
Stay safe, guys. |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:18 - Sep 23 with 2733 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not antisemitic on 09:05 - Sep 23 by Wacko |
Ah but that, according to the examples, doesn't constitute as anti-semitic:
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
But judging by his confidence I'm sure he can easily support his arguments. I only wish he'd hurry up so I can continue eating my quinoa muesli |
Do you believe that the accusations from British Jews against Labour are being directed from Israel or do you believe they are genuine complaints?
Edit. I wish you’d hurry up and answer. Or are you too busy stuffing your face with quinoa muesli? [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:27]
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| Not antisemitic on 09:19 - Sep 23 with 2728 views | Bluefish |
| Not antisemitic on 09:15 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok.
Number one is a cartoon by an antisemite. His work is frequently Antisemitic. British Jewish organisations have been complaining about antisemitism within the Labour Party. The cartoonist is saying that this is being directed from Israel because Corbyn is pro Palestinian.
Number two is accusing a British Jewish organisation of making up antisemitism against British Jews from people within the Labour Party. It’s full of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. It also accuses the JLM of dual loyalty. 2. Pete Gregson runs the group behind this flyer. He’s a Holocaust revisionist who has been expelled from Unite.
Number three we’ve done. The IHRA definition with all of its examples says calling Israel a racist endeavour is antisemitic.
Number four. Heckling a Jew for calling out racism. Seriously? Imagine if a Muslim was heckled at the Tory party conference for calling out Islamophobia?
Number five. Hosting a meeting featuring four people who have all been expelled for antisemitism. Again, seriously? |
If all examples were spun round to be the other side and linked to anti Islam I expect BDS would be able to see if all. It is that sort of ignoring from both sides that is making the world a very ugly place |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:23 - Sep 23 with 2724 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not antisemitic on 09:19 - Sep 23 by Bluefish |
If all examples were spun round to be the other side and linked to anti Islam I expect BDS would be able to see if all. It is that sort of ignoring from both sides that is making the world a very ugly place |
Indeed. Imagine if people in the Tory party started accusing the Conservative Muslim Forum of and people like Baroness Warsi of taking their lead from from a foreign Muslim country when making complaints about Tory Islamophobia? That would be rather racist wouldn’t it? | |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:26 - Sep 23 with 2710 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not antisemitic on 09:19 - Sep 23 by Bluefish |
If all examples were spun round to be the other side and linked to anti Islam I expect BDS would be able to see if all. It is that sort of ignoring from both sides that is making the world a very ugly place |
I think he wouldn't....even by Glasgow's standards that reply was spin-tastic.
Maybe to save people some time and for the hard of hearing he can point people to the point in the video where the booing and heckling occurs. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:28 - Sep 23 with 2704 views | monytowbray |
| Not antisemitic on 09:15 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok.
Number one is a cartoon by an antisemite. His work is frequently Antisemitic. British Jewish organisations have been complaining about antisemitism within the Labour Party. The cartoonist is saying that this is being directed from Israel because Corbyn is pro Palestinian.
Number two is accusing a British Jewish organisation of making up antisemitism against British Jews from people within the Labour Party. It’s full of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. It also accuses the JLM of dual loyalty. 2. Pete Gregson runs the group behind this flyer. He’s a Holocaust revisionist who has been expelled from Unite.
Number three we’ve done. The IHRA definition with all of its examples says calling Israel a racist endeavour is antisemitic.
Number four. Heckling a Jew for calling out racism. Seriously? Imagine if a Muslim was heckled at the Tory party conference for calling out Islamophobia?
Number five. Hosting a meeting featuring four people who have all been expelled for antisemitism. Again, seriously? |
One I agree with and it is pretty f*cked.
Two I can't see the anti-Jewish conspiracies, what points specifically are?
Three I'm still baffled how you can't see why people take issue with the Israeli government and those who fund it. It's not a black and white matter at all from either side but you can't just say anyone who speaks out against it is an anti-semite surely?
Four I can't watch the video as I'm at work. So I'll have to do that later.
Five is a bit odd I will admit. Doesn't look like an official part of the agenda though. [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:29]
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| Not antisemitic on 09:40 - Sep 23 with 2683 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not antisemitic on 09:26 - Sep 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think he wouldn't....even by Glasgow's standards that reply was spin-tastic.
Maybe to save people some time and for the hard of hearing he can point people to the point in the video where the booing and heckling occurs. |
Oh Banksy.
Do we have to do the same dance every time? I call out antisemitism in the Labour Party. You say I never call out racism in the Tory Party. I give an examples of where I’ve called out racism in the Tory party. You then say that I post about antisemitism more than any other type of racis and claim I don’t care about other forms of racism. I then post several examples of where I’ve called out other forms of racism but admit to posting about antisemitism more because of my family background. I explain my wife’s ethnicity and my own heritage. You then say “a-ha! So you do prioritise the racism you complain about”. I ask you whether you would constantly question a man of Afro Caribbean heritage who has a wife of mixed race why they are more concerned with the Windrush scandal or black lives matter. You suddenly go quiet. Eat sleep rave repeat.
So just bookmark the above paragraph to save us both the time and effort. [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:43]
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| Not antisemitic on 09:43 - Sep 23 with 2679 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not antisemitic on 09:28 - Sep 23 by monytowbray |
One I agree with and it is pretty f*cked.
Two I can't see the anti-Jewish conspiracies, what points specifically are?
Three I'm still baffled how you can't see why people take issue with the Israeli government and those who fund it. It's not a black and white matter at all from either side but you can't just say anyone who speaks out against it is an anti-semite surely?
Four I can't watch the video as I'm at work. So I'll have to do that later.
Five is a bit odd I will admit. Doesn't look like an official part of the agenda though. [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:29]
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Ill genuinely reply to you later mate but I’ve just spent five minutes replying to Banksy and I’m going off grid for a while. Will defiantly reply later on. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 09:49 - Sep 23 with 2667 views | Wacko |
| Not antisemitic on 09:01 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
And did you read them. Because even before I bother my arse explaining why 1, 2, 4 and 5 are antisemitic no 3 sticks out like a sore thumb. Referring to Israel as a racist endeavour.
You really didn’t read your own link did you? |
Ok now we're finally having some debate.
The example states: "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor"
This is actually a misleading statement and conflicts with another part of the guidelines: "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
The concluding paragraph of the article in 3 (which I also read fully while eating my muesli) states: "there is little that is exceptional about Israel's racism. It is rooted in its nature as a settler state. Uprooting colonialist racism requires a change of regime, decolonisation, which in the case of Israel means de-Zionisation".
So according the guidelines, you are half right in your assertion that it's anti-semitic: yes, it calls the existence of the Israeli state a racist endeavour, but it doesn't seek to deny Jewish people the right to self-determination.
0.5 out of 5 still isn't great. Just seen you've posted justifications elsewhere so will have a look [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:59]
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| Not antisemitic on 09:58 - Sep 23 with 2648 views | Wacko |
| Not antisemitic on 09:18 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Do you believe that the accusations from British Jews against Labour are being directed from Israel or do you believe they are genuine complaints?
Edit. I wish you’d hurry up and answer. Or are you too busy stuffing your face with quinoa muesli? [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:27]
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It's not about what I believe or don't. It's about whether the cartoon constitutes anti-semitism. You could replace Corbyn with a Trump voter and Netanyahu with Putin and it would be advocating a similar type of conspiracy.
Claiming that a government regime is trying to defame a politician who actively opposes said government's policy is a lot of things, but it isn't racist.
Edit: it was delicious. Just trying to keep things light-hearted [Post edited 23 Sep 2019 9:58]
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| Not anti-semitic on 10:12 - Sep 23 with 2624 views | Wacko |
| Not antisemitic on 09:15 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok.
Number one is a cartoon by an antisemite. His work is frequently Antisemitic. British Jewish organisations have been complaining about antisemitism within the Labour Party. The cartoonist is saying that this is being directed from Israel because Corbyn is pro Palestinian.
Number two is accusing a British Jewish organisation of making up antisemitism against British Jews from people within the Labour Party. It’s full of anti Jewish conspiracy theories. It also accuses the JLM of dual loyalty. 2. Pete Gregson runs the group behind this flyer. He’s a Holocaust revisionist who has been expelled from Unite.
Number three we’ve done. The IHRA definition with all of its examples says calling Israel a racist endeavour is antisemitic.
Number four. Heckling a Jew for calling out racism. Seriously? Imagine if a Muslim was heckled at the Tory party conference for calling out Islamophobia?
Number five. Hosting a meeting featuring four people who have all been expelled for antisemitism. Again, seriously? |
With the exception of number 3, none of these justifications refer in any way to the IHRA definition of anti-semitism (and its examples), which you yourself brought up in an earlier post.
So you should do the decent thing and delete those examples that you cannot argue as being anti-semitic. We don't want the impressionable kids to start adopting views based on shoddy misinformation! | |
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| Not antisemitic on 10:13 - Sep 23 with 2625 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 07:46 - Sep 23 by Wacko |
None of that is anti-semitic.
1. Not an anti-semitic cartoon, an anti-lobbyist cartoon (though the cartoonist himself appears anti-semitic)
2. Anti-zionist and trying to destroy an organisation, not a race
3. Anti-Israeli state calling for de-Zionisation
4. Gives a platform to a guy who highlights certain past anti-semitic examples, showing they're not suppressing / sweeping it under the carpet in this instance (also didn't hear any booing, just lukewarm applause at the end)
5. Not antisemitic... yet. Post something about the content of the talk
Try harder! |
Well said. The top one is typical of the smeary approach - Look at this "antisemitic" poster (but we need to give you other cartoons that weren't there to make our case that it's antisemitic and deflect from the first poster being factually fair comment given the documented and filmed evidence).
If people applied the actual IHRA definition then none of this is antisemitic. The person claiming Israel is a racist endeavour is Moshe Machover an Israeli Jew who has been fighting what he calls Zionist colonialism for over 50 years. So for him it's not about Netanyahu specifically but what the state has effectively become. Using the IHRA definition, it's not the Jewishness of the state that's the problem but it's the Zionism which in the wrong hands is an ethno-nationalist and religious ideology that denies the Palestinian right to self-determination. Given where we are now and on the verge of seeing a potential Palestine state all but disappear looks like Machover was right about fighting that.
The importance of the Israel examples that are tagged on to the IHRA definition is to be rules that are slavishly and blindly followed without the context the original IHRA author said was necessary. And ensure that this type of criticism of Israel's prevailing politics and almost extremist ideology can be dismissed as antisemitic. That's why Machover deliberately calls it out. |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 10:18 - Sep 23 with 2616 views | Wacko |
| Not antisemitic on 09:23 - Sep 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. Imagine if people in the Tory party started accusing the Conservative Muslim Forum of and people like Baroness Warsi of taking their lead from from a foreign Muslim country when making complaints about Tory Islamophobia? That would be rather racist wouldn’t it? |
It actually isn't racist!
Here's a handy guide:
being anti-semitic = racist
accusing someone of being anti-semitic = not racist
accusing someone of falsely accusing someone of being anti-semitic = also not racist | |
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| Not antisemitic on 10:33 - Sep 23 with 2599 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 10:18 - Sep 23 by Wacko |
It actually isn't racist!
Here's a handy guide:
being anti-semitic = racist
accusing someone of being anti-semitic = not racist
accusing someone of falsely accusing someone of being anti-semitic = also not racist |
This worryingly is the whole approach. Accusations (not proof) are the real currency which is why the case for antisemitism in the Labour Party now rests on how accusations are dealt with ... Not on how valid all these accusations are (some of course are cases of antisemitism) and how many of them can be linked to the party and the leadership itself even loosely. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:04 - Sep 23 with 2578 views | giant_stow |
Its weird how its always the Israelis that these people go for innit. All the terrible things going on around the world, but they manage to stay so focused - impressive. |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:25 - Sep 23 with 2545 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 11:04 - Sep 23 by giant_stow |
Its weird how its always the Israelis that these people go for innit. All the terrible things going on around the world, but they manage to stay so focused - impressive. |
Eh?
Our main political parties and government (in the US too which is the core of this debate) have actively and often blindly supported Israel to the point of them now feeling pretty comfortable in oppressing a population under its control. And boasting about the next stage in its expansion into those territories.
Have you got an example of another country that has been welcomed into the Western, "democratic" fold and yet has been so consistently in defiance of UN and human rights censure?
There is more genuine opposition within Israel itself and among Jews in the diaspora, which is scandalous. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:27 - Sep 23 with 2541 views | Guthrum |
| Not antisemitic on 11:04 - Sep 23 by giant_stow |
Its weird how its always the Israelis that these people go for innit. All the terrible things going on around the world, but they manage to stay so focused - impressive. |
It's a historical thing. The Israel-Palestinian issue has been a major one for the Left since the days when the Soviets were backing Nasser and the Pan-Arab Socialists against US-supported Israel. Plus Palestinian terrorists being armed and financed by East Germany and other Warsaw Pact/USSR-allied countries, working sometimes in conjuction with Communist insurgent/terrorist groups such as the Sandanistas and the Japanese Red Army. |  |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:33 - Sep 23 with 2527 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 11:27 - Sep 23 by Guthrum |
It's a historical thing. The Israel-Palestinian issue has been a major one for the Left since the days when the Soviets were backing Nasser and the Pan-Arab Socialists against US-supported Israel. Plus Palestinian terrorists being armed and financed by East Germany and other Warsaw Pact/USSR-allied countries, working sometimes in conjuction with Communist insurgent/terrorist groups such as the Sandanistas and the Japanese Red Army. |
Of course. But it's also factual over several decades.
The facts being: Our country doesn't care enough about the Palestinians and pays lip service to the idea of a two-state solution. Opposing that can be a left-right thing, an anti-imperialist stance, an Islamophilic or Arab nationalist view or perhaps just a basic human rights and peace issue.
Dismissing it as just politics or antisemitism conveniently ignores the basic reality. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:42 - Sep 23 with 2509 views | Guthrum |
| Not antisemitic on 11:33 - Sep 23 by Darth_Koont |
Of course. But it's also factual over several decades.
The facts being: Our country doesn't care enough about the Palestinians and pays lip service to the idea of a two-state solution. Opposing that can be a left-right thing, an anti-imperialist stance, an Islamophilic or Arab nationalist view or perhaps just a basic human rights and peace issue.
Dismissing it as just politics or antisemitism conveniently ignores the basic reality. |
Indeed. The plight of people on the ground tends to get lost in political grandstanding and mudslinging. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:47 - Sep 23 with 2500 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 11:42 - Sep 23 by Guthrum |
Indeed. The plight of people on the ground tends to get lost in political grandstanding and mudslinging. |
Well said.
BTW wasn't implying you were dismissing that by bringing up the political angle. Just worried how neatly it fits into some people's views of the "politics of the left" as some sort of blind ideological and factional powerplay. It's like thinking that environmentalists are just a bunch of tree-hugging hippies. | |
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| Not antisemitic on 11:52 - Sep 23 with 2491 views | brazil1982 |
It's disgusting.
Unfortunately I will have to endure the Conservative Party conference in Manchester soon - with all the protests, including Hamas flags.
Why are [some] left leaning people so obsessed with Israel? | | | |
| Not antisemitic on 11:54 - Sep 23 with 2477 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not antisemitic on 11:52 - Sep 23 by brazil1982 |
It's disgusting.
Unfortunately I will have to endure the Conservative Party conference in Manchester soon - with all the protests, including Hamas flags.
Why are [some] left leaning people so obsessed with Israel? |
Why are you so tolerant and defensive of Israel? | |
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