| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' 07:49 - Nov 9 with 21919 views | homer_123 |
with the whole Patel affair, dies it not?
Surely May's position as 'leader' would have potential been stronger had she 'sacked' Patel for breaking the Ministerial Code and/ or not being candid about all her meetings.
Might she have benefited from decisive leadership and sacking Patel as opposed to letting her resign. Could it be argued that by also removing Boris from his role, she would look stronger?
I'm not blind to the fact that she put these into their respective roles and she wouldn't like either on the back benches, so ideally she would rather not be in this position.
However, all that aside, I can't help feeling this morning that the reason Patel was allowed to resign is that there is clearly some truth in the notion that the FCO and/ or Downing Street were more aware of the situation than they have let on.
I'm no Tom Watson fan, far from it, but he's right to be asking more questions and looking to seek clarification on the matter. As I say, it all seems rather off kilter.
2 Cabinet minister gone
Brexit talks in deadlock
Majority slashed
Sexual harassment situation (appreciate this is hitting all parties)
Surely this government can't go on much longer, can it? |  |
| |  |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 07:55 - Nov 9 with 8484 views | Steve_M |
I'm not sure resigning before being sacked is going to convince anyone much. The telling aspect of this one though is that it ran for three days, a strong leader resolves it far more quickly.
I'm not sure what she thinks she has to lose by not sacking Johnson either. Who is going to complain it's for any other reason than his competence? Well, him obviously. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:05 - Nov 9 with 8468 views | homer_123 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 07:55 - Nov 9 by Steve_M |
I'm not sure resigning before being sacked is going to convince anyone much. The telling aspect of this one though is that it ran for three days, a strong leader resolves it far more quickly.
I'm not sure what she thinks she has to lose by not sacking Johnson either. Who is going to complain it's for any other reason than his competence? Well, him obviously. |
I do think that May would 'look' better by actually sacking her - in effect, Patel has been allowed to resign.
I think that is telling on two counts. Firstly, as you say, it's dragged on - May hasn't been decisive but even now, when things are untenable, May had the opportunity to sack her and she hasn't taken it. May would appear slightly more credible, I believe, if she had sacked her - even after 3 days.
So, the question remains why? Is this a case or May being May and not strong and decisive or is there more going on here that means May 'cant't sack her?
As for Boris, perplexing isn't the word - I simply cannot fathom how he is still in post. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:08]
| |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:13 - Nov 9 with 8447 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:05 - Nov 9 by homer_123 |
I do think that May would 'look' better by actually sacking her - in effect, Patel has been allowed to resign.
I think that is telling on two counts. Firstly, as you say, it's dragged on - May hasn't been decisive but even now, when things are untenable, May had the opportunity to sack her and she hasn't taken it. May would appear slightly more credible, I believe, if she had sacked her - even after 3 days.
So, the question remains why? Is this a case or May being May and not strong and decisive or is there more going on here that means May 'cant't sack her?
As for Boris, perplexing isn't the word - I simply cannot fathom how he is still in post. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:08]
|
If you were May you would want Boris where you csn see him, not behind your back. Think there is more to come out on the Patrl story, suspect some pre knowledge on the part of Msy but Patrl took it too far.
Strong words to day, no doubt, on Brexit.Patel story is just a side issue. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:15 - Nov 9 with 8445 views | homer_123 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:13 - Nov 9 by Pinewoodblue |
If you were May you would want Boris where you csn see him, not behind your back. Think there is more to come out on the Patrl story, suspect some pre knowledge on the part of Msy but Patrl took it too far.
Strong words to day, no doubt, on Brexit.Patel story is just a side issue. |
From my op:
"I'm not blind to the fact that she put these into their respective roles and she wouldn't like either on the back benches, so ideally she would rather not be in this position. " | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:25 - Nov 9 with 8432 views | hype313 |
Resigning means she can find a way back.. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:25 - Nov 9 with 8435 views | No9 |
Listening & watching the media yesterday evening it became apparent we are witnessing a new way for politicians to bring down their leader. It is as if Ms Patel has been set up (with her agreement) by the Leave campaign to outst Mrs May as PM.
Those who spoke for Leave were quite clear Ms Patel did abolutey nothing wrong and is very much a part of their future planning. She is reputedly going to rest until the new year then come back in a much stronger position as leader of the Brexit movement to ensure the Leave group on the RW of the party get exactly what they want.
Once more we can see this is a tory problem where the RW will not rest & until the party splits properly these warring factions on the right will continue to hold the country to ransom.
Rees-Mogg was in high spirits with a threatening attitude. |  | | |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:27 - Nov 9 with 8432 views | hype313 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:25 - Nov 9 by No9 |
Listening & watching the media yesterday evening it became apparent we are witnessing a new way for politicians to bring down their leader. It is as if Ms Patel has been set up (with her agreement) by the Leave campaign to outst Mrs May as PM.
Those who spoke for Leave were quite clear Ms Patel did abolutey nothing wrong and is very much a part of their future planning. She is reputedly going to rest until the new year then come back in a much stronger position as leader of the Brexit movement to ensure the Leave group on the RW of the party get exactly what they want.
Once more we can see this is a tory problem where the RW will not rest & until the party splits properly these warring factions on the right will continue to hold the country to ransom.
Rees-Mogg was in high spirits with a threatening attitude. |
Ress Mogg said ""arcane constitutional reasons"? He doesn't think lying is a reason... | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:32 - Nov 9 with 8423 views | eireblue |
So a conspiracy view on it.
Boris getting close to being dumped.
Orchestrate the dumping of another less important minister.
May can't get rid of Boris, without it appearing like the government is falling apart.
To lose 2 cabinet ministers in a week is unfortunate, three.....
Therefore Boris keeps his position, and doesn't get sacked for being....well...Boris. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:34 - Nov 9 with 8424 views | Guthrum |
It's not just about Patel, however. She has allies and associates, factions to which she belongs (e.g. the Harder Brexit wing of the party). Too harsh a slap-down - and it's been quite public and humiliating already - is likely to cause offence to those wider elements.
Further on those factions, a fall for one means the rise of one or more others, which is likely to upset the delicate balance of the party. The modern Conservatives lack a robust Blairite authoritarian streak which has allowed Corbyn to suppress his Labour Party rivals.
But on a positive note - for May, at least - until and unless any other party can organise a working majority in the House, her government is safe. Currently, the numbers simply do not add up for Labour, even if they could manage to arrange some sort of unlikely mass bundle of opposition parties. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:34 - Nov 9 with 8414 views | BlueBadger |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:32 - Nov 9 by eireblue |
So a conspiracy view on it.
Boris getting close to being dumped.
Orchestrate the dumping of another less important minister.
May can't get rid of Boris, without it appearing like the government is falling apart.
To lose 2 cabinet ministers in a week is unfortunate, three.....
Therefore Boris keeps his position, and doesn't get sacked for being....well...Boris. |
Plus, the second his arse hits a back bench, he'd be orchestrating a leadership bid. I suspect a reshuffle may happen soon, with Johnson getting moved to a job that the government consider to be prominent but of little worth, like sport, arts or health. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:37 - Nov 9 with 8415 views | hype313 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:34 - Nov 9 by Guthrum |
It's not just about Patel, however. She has allies and associates, factions to which she belongs (e.g. the Harder Brexit wing of the party). Too harsh a slap-down - and it's been quite public and humiliating already - is likely to cause offence to those wider elements.
Further on those factions, a fall for one means the rise of one or more others, which is likely to upset the delicate balance of the party. The modern Conservatives lack a robust Blairite authoritarian streak which has allowed Corbyn to suppress his Labour Party rivals.
But on a positive note - for May, at least - until and unless any other party can organise a working majority in the House, her government is safe. Currently, the numbers simply do not add up for Labour, even if they could manage to arrange some sort of unlikely mass bundle of opposition parties. |
Which does beg the question why the Tories don't go for blood on May whilst they have the numbers, things are rock bottom for her, so if they can find a blairite authoritarian to give them a push and settle things down by 2022 , they should surely do so.
The question is, is their anyone of note that can give them that push, I haven't seen anything yet to make me think they have a candidate with the gravitas to bring the party together.
The Tory party is currently a snake pit. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:50]
| |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:48 - Nov 9 with 8388 views | Guthrum |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:37 - Nov 9 by hype313 |
Which does beg the question why the Tories don't go for blood on May whilst they have the numbers, things are rock bottom for her, so if they can find a blairite authoritarian to give them a push and settle things down by 2022 , they should surely do so.
The question is, is their anyone of note that can give them that push, I haven't seen anything yet to make me think they have a candidate with the gravitas to bring the party together.
The Tory party is currently a snake pit. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:50]
|
That second paragraph is precisely it. They don't have a better unification candidate than May herself. All others of sufficient stature are tied to particular factions and the sheer number of lumbering beasts at the top is blocking younger talent from coming through (plus many of the latter have joined in the factional fun, if nothing else to advance their careers).
May's snap election gambit has made it harder for any successor as party leader to avoid pressure for a General Election soonish after taking over. And that really could be a disaster for the Tories, unless they can run a much better campaign than last time (particularly while good-at-elections Corbyn is still on the scene). | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:11 - Nov 9 with 8354 views | factual_blue |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:27 - Nov 9 by hype313 |
Ress Mogg said ""arcane constitutional reasons"? He doesn't think lying is a reason... |
The principle that no minister ever has any meeting without a note taker present is an extremely sensible one, and not an arcane constitutional one.
I'd have thought Moggy-woggy would love an arcane constitutional reason. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:13 - Nov 9 with 8344 views | hype313 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:11 - Nov 9 by factual_blue |
The principle that no minister ever has any meeting without a note taker present is an extremely sensible one, and not an arcane constitutional one.
I'd have thought Moggy-woggy would love an arcane constitutional reason. |
Exactly my thoughts. | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:15 - Nov 9 with 8343 views | StokieBlue |
Well someone is lying, either the Jewish Chronicles two "very senior sources" and the Israel ministers or No 10.
It won't go away until one of them admits to it and neither should it go away.
I think they clearly knew, they know everything that ministers are doing.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:19 - Nov 9 with 8328 views | BlueBadger |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:37 - Nov 9 by hype313 |
Which does beg the question why the Tories don't go for blood on May whilst they have the numbers, things are rock bottom for her, so if they can find a blairite authoritarian to give them a push and settle things down by 2022 , they should surely do so.
The question is, is their anyone of note that can give them that push, I haven't seen anything yet to make me think they have a candidate with the gravitas to bring the party together.
The Tory party is currently a snake pit. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:50]
|
Parliament as a whole, is an appalling clusterf*ck at the moment. The government is weak, disorganised and incompetent and the opposition are hell-bent on keeping anyone remotely useful in the background. | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:23 - Nov 9 with 8327 views | Guthrum |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:15 - Nov 9 by StokieBlue |
Well someone is lying, either the Jewish Chronicles two "very senior sources" and the Israel ministers or No 10.
It won't go away until one of them admits to it and neither should it go away.
I think they clearly knew, they know everything that ministers are doing.
SB |
Or Patel, who may have told people she had authorisation without having actually obtained it. Or Johnson, who may have stitched her up (or simply been incompetent and now can't admit it). | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:24 - Nov 9 with 8321 views | factual_blue |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:13 - Nov 9 by hype313 |
Exactly my thoughts. |
It's often been the case that Ministers who are odious on a personal level to their civil servants are hung out to dry by those civil servants. That happened to Edwina Currie and David Blunkett. | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:52 - Nov 9 with 8286 views | homer_123 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:15 - Nov 9 by StokieBlue |
Well someone is lying, either the Jewish Chronicles two "very senior sources" and the Israel ministers or No 10.
It won't go away until one of them admits to it and neither should it go away.
I think they clearly knew, they know everything that ministers are doing.
SB |
As I say - it doesn't add up does it? | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 10:00 - Nov 9 with 8278 views | homer_123 |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:34 - Nov 9 by Guthrum |
It's not just about Patel, however. She has allies and associates, factions to which she belongs (e.g. the Harder Brexit wing of the party). Too harsh a slap-down - and it's been quite public and humiliating already - is likely to cause offence to those wider elements.
Further on those factions, a fall for one means the rise of one or more others, which is likely to upset the delicate balance of the party. The modern Conservatives lack a robust Blairite authoritarian streak which has allowed Corbyn to suppress his Labour Party rivals.
But on a positive note - for May, at least - until and unless any other party can organise a working majority in the House, her government is safe. Currently, the numbers simply do not add up for Labour, even if they could manage to arrange some sort of unlikely mass bundle of opposition parties. |
'and it's been quite public and humiliating already - is likely to cause offence to those wider elements. '
Do you really think so Guthers?
She's got a way back from this in the longer term. Also, I can't see how the wider factions would be offended by her sacking. I think they would be annoyed (especially if she has been setup) but not offended. | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 10:14 - Nov 9 with 8248 views | Guthrum |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 10:00 - Nov 9 by homer_123 |
'and it's been quite public and humiliating already - is likely to cause offence to those wider elements. '
Do you really think so Guthers?
She's got a way back from this in the longer term. Also, I can't see how the wider factions would be offended by her sacking. I think they would be annoyed (especially if she has been setup) but not offended. |
She's been ignominiously hauled back from an official trip to Africa in order to face the music. That's pretty humiliating for an ambitious political figure.
Annoyance is an outcome of offence. Her allies are already beefing in the press, with threats about how troublesome Patel is likely to become.
There's always a way back, but the damage she's done (and that her supporters are threatening she'll do) to the Tories and their position of government will not soon be forgotten in the party. | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 10:26 - Nov 9 with 8226 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 09:15 - Nov 9 by StokieBlue |
Well someone is lying, either the Jewish Chronicles two "very senior sources" and the Israel ministers or No 10.
It won't go away until one of them admits to it and neither should it go away.
I think they clearly knew, they know everything that ministers are doing.
SB |
Interesting points, but ...
I'm afraid it will go away even though it shouldn't.
All the media has to do is focus in lock-step on something different obsessively for 3 days and the whole world moves on. |  |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 10:45 - Nov 9 with 8206 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 08:05 - Nov 9 by homer_123 |
I do think that May would 'look' better by actually sacking her - in effect, Patel has been allowed to resign.
I think that is telling on two counts. Firstly, as you say, it's dragged on - May hasn't been decisive but even now, when things are untenable, May had the opportunity to sack her and she hasn't taken it. May would appear slightly more credible, I believe, if she had sacked her - even after 3 days.
So, the question remains why? Is this a case or May being May and not strong and decisive or is there more going on here that means May 'cant't sack her?
As for Boris, perplexing isn't the word - I simply cannot fathom how he is still in post. [Post edited 9 Nov 2017 8:08]
|
I don't know why you have to present your doubts and suspicions whilst alluding to conspiracy theories and Pazelle.
Just admit that it makes no sense and that if we're being lied to, there IS a conspiracy going on.
You move in the right direction with your final two paragraphs - especially the last, concerning Johnson.
So do the intelligent thing and investigate why he hasn't lost his job. Why he was Remain just 3 weeks before he headed the Leave campaign. Try to find out who is behind Johnson.
It's not enough to sit still until the BBC, the Independent or the Guardian writes an article that justifies things in a bizarre way or a way which is rooted in personal failings, individual weakness or institutional incompetence.
You think things are "off kilter" and you're not getting the answers from your trusted sources, so get digging.
: | |
| |
| Without going all Pazelle, something does seem rather 'off kilter' on 12:04 - Nov 9 with 8096 views | Swansea_Blue |
Swanner's sources are led to believe that May would have acted quicker, but she was overseeing the fitting of new bases to some of the cabinet. Boris is especially pleased with his.
 |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
