| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? 13:49 - Feb 26 with 3563 views | DanTheMan |
https://news.sky.com/story/tory-one-nation-group-urges-jeremy-hunt-to-cut-taxes-
A bunch of fairly sensible policies on the face of it, even if I don't agree with all of them.
Of particular interest though for me...
and has called for income to be taxed at the same rate, regardless of the source - whether that be earnings, benefits, or dividends.
Think this is the first time I've heard MPs talk about this. Raised it a few times on here that I'm surprised we've still not done this. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 13:58 - Feb 26 with 2733 views | J2BLUE |
I'd rather they invested it in the NHS and the military.
Obviously that doesn't work when trying to bribe the electorate though. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:03 - Feb 26 with 2706 views | DanTheMan |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 13:58 - Feb 26 by J2BLUE |
I'd rather they invested it in the NHS and the military.
Obviously that doesn't work when trying to bribe the electorate though. |
Agreed (at least on the NHS, partially on military) although the issue comes with how to fund it whilst saying you're not going to increase taxes.
Workers are getting slammed whilst people who earn their money through things like dividends without actually doing anything pays less as a percentage than those on the lowest rates. Just doesn't make any sense. Think the last time I looked at this it raised somewhere in the region of £15billion a year, which is like 5x the amount getting rid of the non-dom stuff would give. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:06 - Feb 26 with 2687 views | itfcjoe |
Basically where the generally population is and why whoever controls and appeals to the centre will win an election - Labour occupy this currently but little difference between one nation conservatism and the right of the labour party and never has been or will be |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:08 - Feb 26 with 2667 views | jontysnut |
This came into a bit more focus when Sunak published his tax return, where most of his income was dividends etc. People were questioning why he was taxed at a lower rate on this income than a nurse, for example, who had gone to work. |  | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:17 - Feb 26 with 2626 views | bluelagos |
The simple answer is sitting on their hands and keeping their mouth's shut as those who made a stand against Brexit were drummed out of the party.
The gloves are slowly coming off although you'd expect a lot more recriminations to take place post electoral humiliation, fingers crossed. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:39 - Feb 26 with 2560 views | GlasgowBlue |
Johnson purged the majority of One Nation Tories in 2019. Not many of them left unfortunately. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:41 - Feb 26 with 2552 views | DJR |
I don't recall One Nation Tories calling out austerity. Indeed, Ken Clarke was one, and he went along with everything the Tories have done since Thatcher was first elected, apart from Brexit. [Post edited 26 Feb 14:42]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:44 - Feb 26 with 2531 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:41 - Feb 26 by DJR |
I don't recall One Nation Tories calling out austerity. Indeed, Ken Clarke was one, and he went along with everything the Tories have done since Thatcher was first elected, apart from Brexit. [Post edited 26 Feb 14:42]
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The Liberals also went long with austerity. As did Labour. Alistair Darling said before the 2010 election that to tackle the deficit he would make cuts more severe than those made by Thatcher in the 1980's.
There is a very good reason that all three parties advocated austerity after the 2008 crash. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:03 - Feb 26 with 2456 views | DanTheMan |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:39 - Feb 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Johnson purged the majority of One Nation Tories in 2019. Not many of them left unfortunately. |
There are 109 in the group, surely that massively dwarves groups like the ERG who make far more noise. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:43 - Feb 26 with 2380 views | DJR |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:03 - Feb 26 by DanTheMan |
There are 109 in the group, surely that massively dwarves groups like the ERG who make far more noise. |
They are pretty spineless though. My MP (now a Cabinet minister) didn't campaign against Brexit because he didn't want to offend Tory members, even though he is an ardent European and married to a French woman. [Post edited 26 Feb 15:47]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:44 - Feb 26 with 2372 views | DanTheMan |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:43 - Feb 26 by DJR |
They are pretty spineless though. My MP (now a Cabinet minister) didn't campaign against Brexit because he didn't want to offend Tory members, even though he is an ardent European and married to a French woman. [Post edited 26 Feb 15:47]
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I guess "being spineless" would answer my query! | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 15:51 - Feb 26 with 2334 views | ElderGrizzly |
We're seeing this sort of at a local level in East Cambs.
Tories boasting of cutting council taxes (or holding them in real terms) for the last 11 years but with the effect of it destroying local services. Yet they control the Council and people keep voting for the tax cutters, not the service providers.
Local analysis showed something like £5 extra a week would fund children's services and some local services they have cut fully, but they can't stomach telling people to pay more. |  | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:07 - Feb 26 with 2270 views | BlueBadger |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 14:44 - Feb 26 by GlasgowBlue |
The Liberals also went long with austerity. As did Labour. Alistair Darling said before the 2010 election that to tackle the deficit he would make cuts more severe than those made by Thatcher in the 1980's.
There is a very good reason that all three parties advocated austerity after the 2008 crash. |
What was that 'very good reason'? Given that austerity was entirely driven by ideology as opposed to offering any kind of tangible benefit to anyone bar the super rich? [Post edited 26 Feb 16:51]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:34 - Feb 26 with 2176 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:07 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
What was that 'very good reason'? Given that austerity was entirely driven by ideology as opposed to offering any kind of tangible benefit to anyone bar the super rich? [Post edited 26 Feb 16:51]
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I guess simple arithmetic is not your strong point! |  | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:51 - Feb 26 with 2106 views | BlueBadger |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:34 - Feb 26 by Zapers |
I guess simple arithmetic is not your strong point! |
Interesting that one of our leading posters in favour of being and kind and reducing bullying is coming out in support for shafting the most vulnerable in society and offering snide little digs.
But, as you're interested, there's nothing wrong with my maths, chuckles.
Austerity was, is and always will be a massive false economy.
Let's take healthcare as one example(as it's something I know a bit about, having been working in it for the thick end of 30 years) - it's cost much more to keep people in hospital than it does at home(or even in a care situation). Yet, thanks to 'money saving' austerity costs, through no fault of their own, huge swathes of vulnerable and frail people are marooned in hospital(at a higher cost) as there's no funding to support these people in the community.
Additionally, the longer people stay in hospital, the more dependent they will generally become, so when they DO finally return to a place of residence they are a) more likely to bounce back into hospital and b) need a higher level of support on leaving. [Post edited 26 Feb 17:29]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 17:18 - Feb 26 with 2021 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:51 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
Interesting that one of our leading posters in favour of being and kind and reducing bullying is coming out in support for shafting the most vulnerable in society and offering snide little digs.
But, as you're interested, there's nothing wrong with my maths, chuckles.
Austerity was, is and always will be a massive false economy.
Let's take healthcare as one example(as it's something I know a bit about, having been working in it for the thick end of 30 years) - it's cost much more to keep people in hospital than it does at home(or even in a care situation). Yet, thanks to 'money saving' austerity costs, through no fault of their own, huge swathes of vulnerable and frail people are marooned in hospital(at a higher cost) as there's no funding to support these people in the community.
Additionally, the longer people stay in hospital, the more dependent they will generally become, so when they DO finally return to a place of residence they are a) more likely to bounce back into hospital and b) need a higher level of support on leaving. [Post edited 26 Feb 17:29]
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The short term of reducing investment in education and healthcare is having massive costs to the medium and longer term. Paying excessive fees for cover staff due to the shortage of employed trained staff, paying profits to private companies instead of properly invested public ones and receiving a lower quality service that has a financial cost to society.
And all this is driven by an ideology of low tax and low investment in public services. If all the parties are driving this, it is due to the pressure from the media that cutting taxes is a good thing. The country desperately needs a government that has a commitment to public services but it looks highly unlikely for a long time.
This message board is described as a haven of liberal left wingers and yet there are at least 50% of those who comment who applaud the cutting of taxes and claim we cannot afford to invest in public services. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 17:28 - Feb 26 with 1982 views | BlueBadger |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 17:18 - Feb 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The short term of reducing investment in education and healthcare is having massive costs to the medium and longer term. Paying excessive fees for cover staff due to the shortage of employed trained staff, paying profits to private companies instead of properly invested public ones and receiving a lower quality service that has a financial cost to society.
And all this is driven by an ideology of low tax and low investment in public services. If all the parties are driving this, it is due to the pressure from the media that cutting taxes is a good thing. The country desperately needs a government that has a commitment to public services but it looks highly unlikely for a long time.
This message board is described as a haven of liberal left wingers and yet there are at least 50% of those who comment who applaud the cutting of taxes and claim we cannot afford to invest in public services. |
A venn diagram of people who implore others to 'be kind' and those who'll defend openly sociopathic government policy is basically a circle. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:18 - Feb 26 with 1903 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:07 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
What was that 'very good reason'? Given that austerity was entirely driven by ideology as opposed to offering any kind of tangible benefit to anyone bar the super rich? [Post edited 26 Feb 16:51]
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Bloody right wing ideologue threatens cuts more severe than Maggie Thatcher.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-mar
Good job you didn't vote for them in 2010. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:22 - Feb 26 with 1869 views | BlueBadger |
Yes, but what was the 'very good reason' beyond feeble macho posturing? [Post edited 26 Feb 18:22]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:43 - Feb 26 with 1805 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:22 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
Yes, but what was the 'very good reason' beyond feeble macho posturing? [Post edited 26 Feb 18:22]
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Playing to the electorate thanks to the media. It is why we are back there again with the current Labour Party. It is what makes them electable. Depressing really. And yet, it isn't that long ago that Blair at least put some priority on investing in education.
As for the "very good reasoning" I bet the economic situation wasn't fantastic when the NHS was first set up. It didn't do the country a great deal of harm, though, did it? | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:33 - Feb 26 with 1737 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:43 - Feb 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Playing to the electorate thanks to the media. It is why we are back there again with the current Labour Party. It is what makes them electable. Depressing really. And yet, it isn't that long ago that Blair at least put some priority on investing in education.
As for the "very good reasoning" I bet the economic situation wasn't fantastic when the NHS was first set up. It didn't do the country a great deal of harm, though, did it? |
The deficit as a percentage of GDP in 2010 was 7.3%. At the end of World War 2 it was just 3%.
The NHS was set up in 1948. After 8 years of austerity, 1947 being the last, Attlee's government managed to run a surplus of 6% by 1950. Economic conditions in 1948 were very good. Low unemployment. Low interest rates.
It's worth noting that we currently spend 12% of GDP on health. In 1948 it was 2%. So basically, you are comparing apples with oranges.
Telling people you are going to slash public service spending is not playing to the electorate. Brown went ballistic at Darling for his honesty. The reason all three parties advocated austerity in 2010 was because the economy was fcuked.
The issue wasn't' austerity. It was that Osborne was rubbish at it. Public spending actually went up year on year but the cuts that were made wnet on far too long. He should have cut fast and hard for one year. Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor in 1976, cut more in one year than Osborne did in six. Because he did so he left a decent legacy for Thatcher to build on. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:52 - Feb 26 with 1691 views | Dubtractor |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:33 - Feb 26 by GlasgowBlue |
The deficit as a percentage of GDP in 2010 was 7.3%. At the end of World War 2 it was just 3%.
The NHS was set up in 1948. After 8 years of austerity, 1947 being the last, Attlee's government managed to run a surplus of 6% by 1950. Economic conditions in 1948 were very good. Low unemployment. Low interest rates.
It's worth noting that we currently spend 12% of GDP on health. In 1948 it was 2%. So basically, you are comparing apples with oranges.
Telling people you are going to slash public service spending is not playing to the electorate. Brown went ballistic at Darling for his honesty. The reason all three parties advocated austerity in 2010 was because the economy was fcuked.
The issue wasn't' austerity. It was that Osborne was rubbish at it. Public spending actually went up year on year but the cuts that were made wnet on far too long. He should have cut fast and hard for one year. Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor in 1976, cut more in one year than Osborne did in six. Because he did so he left a decent legacy for Thatcher to build on. |
The other issue was that the government incentivised councils to freeze council tax.
So as well as reducing the funding from central government (via austerity) councils (especially tory controlled ones) also effectively chose to reduce their other main funding source.
The effect of losing 5 or 6 years of small increases in council tax income has been devastating to local government, as Grizzly has also identified above. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:54 - Feb 26 with 1680 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:52 - Feb 26 by Dubtractor |
The other issue was that the government incentivised councils to freeze council tax.
So as well as reducing the funding from central government (via austerity) councils (especially tory controlled ones) also effectively chose to reduce their other main funding source.
The effect of losing 5 or 6 years of small increases in council tax income has been devastating to local government, as Grizzly has also identified above. |
Yes. It was handled very badly. | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 01:15 - Feb 27 with 1513 views | IPS_wich |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 16:51 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
Interesting that one of our leading posters in favour of being and kind and reducing bullying is coming out in support for shafting the most vulnerable in society and offering snide little digs.
But, as you're interested, there's nothing wrong with my maths, chuckles.
Austerity was, is and always will be a massive false economy.
Let's take healthcare as one example(as it's something I know a bit about, having been working in it for the thick end of 30 years) - it's cost much more to keep people in hospital than it does at home(or even in a care situation). Yet, thanks to 'money saving' austerity costs, through no fault of their own, huge swathes of vulnerable and frail people are marooned in hospital(at a higher cost) as there's no funding to support these people in the community.
Additionally, the longer people stay in hospital, the more dependent they will generally become, so when they DO finally return to a place of residence they are a) more likely to bounce back into hospital and b) need a higher level of support on leaving. [Post edited 26 Feb 17:29]
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Whilst I agree with your underlying premise, that last paragraph is totally revisionist.
You are absolutely right that the way the NHS (and many westernised healthcare systems) is organised is expensive and increasingly so. The traditional model of the hospital being the cornerstone of any local health system is deeply ingrained in the psyche of the population; despite the overwhelming evidence showing that in the 21st century we should remodel our health system around care at home/in the community and far more investment in preventative healthcare instead of treatment-based 'sick-care' (with hospitals being there for the very few people who need emergency/specialist care). Not only would it be cheaper but we would get better population health outcomes.
But to suggest that the UK political parties of the late 2000s/early 2010s were on the cusp of remodelling the NHS around a more community/prevention-based model is nonsense - and that austerity is the reason we now have more people stuck in expensive hospitals than ever is a flawed premise. The Blair/Brown government had spent the previous 12 years embarking on the largest hospital building program since the 1960s - including rebuilding small general hospitals that were already being shown to be inefficient and in some cases (Mid Staffs for example) increasingly unsafe.
Sure, local council budgets were cut and social services suffered due to austerity - but there was no policy position or credible argument being put forward for greater investment in social care to address the increasing numbers in our population with chronic conditions to keep them out of hospital - and in part that's because a lot of health advisors were/are doctors who have little/no investment or belief in social care (I facilitated a large event in 2009 where the Medical Director of a large hospital openly criticised investment in social services as being a waste of money).
But the biggest single reason why we have an expensive hospital-based health system is that community/home based services and investment in health prevention do not hit any notes with the electorate. There's no ribbons for politicians to cut and the payback period is 3-4 election cycles.
The issues plaguing the Australian health system are no different to those in the UK - but Australia hasn't had a recession for 30 years and didn't follow an austerity program. There are many many reasons the NHS is in the mess it is in - but austerity categorically wouldn't feature in the top 5.
As an aside - austerity in some form was absolutely necessary - remember the 'cupboard is bare' note from outgoing Labour Treasury Minister to the incoming Coalition Minister. That said, carrying on austerity beyond about 2012/13 wasn't necessary and became increasingly dogmatic and cruel. | | | |
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