| Police State? (n/t) 00:18 - Mar 25 with 6618 views | Oldsmoker |
This is the closest we've got to a Police state in my lifetime.
I always feared the Tories would do something like this.
Yet, they've given police unprecedented powers to arrest and fine people and it's a joke. People are just doing their thing and ignoring the authorities.
The Tories can't seem to do anything properly. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 0:22]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 00:23 - Mar 25 with 4653 views | Oldsmoker |
Go to bed. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 00:26 - Mar 25 with 4647 views | Mercian |
I am not sure if this a troll question or not. No, it's not a police state. Did you see Boris the other night (crap, it was only last night, it seems weeks ago). He was very disturbed that he had to use the police to enforce the lock-down if necessary, even then he has ordered a policing with consent approach who will only enforce in cases of continued no compliance. Their was a case in Birmingham today when a group were having a barbecue, when told to stop and refusing the police kicked over the barbecue and told them in no certain terms to go home. In a police state they would have disappeared without trace as they would be without scrutiny. |  | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 00:34 - Mar 25 with 4618 views | Oldsmoker |
| Police State? (n/t) on 00:26 - Mar 25 by Mercian |
I am not sure if this a troll question or not. No, it's not a police state. Did you see Boris the other night (crap, it was only last night, it seems weeks ago). He was very disturbed that he had to use the police to enforce the lock-down if necessary, even then he has ordered a policing with consent approach who will only enforce in cases of continued no compliance. Their was a case in Birmingham today when a group were having a barbecue, when told to stop and refusing the police kicked over the barbecue and told them in no certain terms to go home. In a police state they would have disappeared without trace as they would be without scrutiny. |
I was highlighting the fact that the police seem reluctant to go over the top.
So, even if they were given powers with no oversight, I don't think they'd use them to any great extent.
You can't really have a police state if they're not armed.
NI in the '70's got close. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:23 - Mar 25 with 4459 views | bluelagos |
Few points.
Britain during the Miners strike in some aspects we were getting close to a police state. Police had powers to stop people traveling and were instrumental in breaking the strike using a whole range of tactics that were far from those associated with a free democracy. Just have a proper read up on the violence they instigated at Orgreave and how the BBC falsely reported it as if the police were attacked.
They also fitted up dozens of miners with fabricated statements and those prosecutions were later thrown out of court for that very reason.
But as my mate corrected me - their disgusting conduct then (and a few years later in covering up their responsibility for killing innocent football fans) - was nothing in comparison to the conduct seen in recent times in South America.
In Chile, under Pinochet, they instigated state murder. They arrested, tortured and murdered 1000s of people because of their political views.
So as much as it feels like it (And it doesn't feel nice) - no, it really isn't a police state. We are having a number of our freedoms removed - but for the greater good.
And how will you ever get compliance if the police don't have the powers to enforce the new rules / laws?
What is important is that as soon as the danger is over, that they don't retain those laws. Only time will tell if they (with Patel as home sec) will seek the opportunity but for now, I don't think we are there yet. and 93% support the laws tbf. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:29 - Mar 25 with 4435 views | GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. I think we can put to bed the “Boris is a fascist” claim.
It’s pretty clear that he’s a classic libertarian who has been very reluctant to turn the U.K. into anything that resembles a Police state. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 7:30]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:32 - Mar 25 with 4419 views | bluelagos |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:29 - Mar 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. I think we can put to bed the “Boris is a fascist” claim.
It’s pretty clear that he’s a classic libertarian who has been very reluctant to turn the U.K. into anything that resembles a Police state. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 7:30]
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Absolutely. Indeed his libertarian tendencies may arguably be far from what is needed atm.
On the flip side (as a libertarian) I would hope he will ensure we get our freedoms back, in full, as/when. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:39 - Mar 25 with 4396 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:29 - Mar 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. I think we can put to bed the “Boris is a fascist” claim.
It’s pretty clear that he’s a classic libertarian who has been very reluctant to turn the U.K. into anything that resembles a Police state. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 7:30]
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Libertarianism.....a.k.a survival of the fittest anarchy a Tory can believe in! |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:41 - Mar 25 with 4393 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:29 - Mar 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. I think we can put to bed the “Boris is a fascist” claim.
It’s pretty clear that he’s a classic libertarian who has been very reluctant to turn the U.K. into anything that resembles a Police state. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 7:30]
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Seemed more one-nation conservative to me. With the extraordinary state response to the financial crisis.
Classical libertarians (think you actually mean classical liberals) would let the company's fall. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:43 - Mar 25 with 4388 views | bluelagos |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:41 - Mar 25 by Kropotkin123 |
Seemed more one-nation conservative to me. With the extraordinary state response to the financial crisis.
Classical libertarians (think you actually mean classical liberals) would let the company's fall. |
I think the Tories would have let them fall - but there are too many.
See Grant Shapps' response to a failing airline a few weeks back. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:47 - Mar 25 with 4370 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:43 - Mar 25 by bluelagos |
I think the Tories would have let them fall - but there are too many.
See Grant Shapps' response to a failing airline a few weeks back. |
Perhaps, and not something I'd argue against. But in classical liberalism, there would be no state assistance for the companies. If there was, they'd no longer be called classical liberals, simply liberals. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 07:59 - Mar 25 with 4346 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:39 - Mar 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Libertarianism.....a.k.a survival of the fittest anarchy a Tory can believe in! |
Libertarianism can and is claimed by both the left and right, as such an extreme rejection of the state over the individual is not bound by ideas of left and right. It is more fluid, in the same way authoritarianism can be from the left and right.
For example, prominent left-wing anarchists were quite happy to describe themselves as libertarians. For example the late Murray Bookchin. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 08:05 - Mar 25 with 4324 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:59 - Mar 25 by Kropotkin123 |
Libertarianism can and is claimed by both the left and right, as such an extreme rejection of the state over the individual is not bound by ideas of left and right. It is more fluid, in the same way authoritarianism can be from the left and right.
For example, prominent left-wing anarchists were quite happy to describe themselves as libertarians. For example the late Murray Bookchin. |
I don't disagree....however it is in the contemporary context very much seized upon by the right.
Edit....the left version is definitely not 'survival of the fittest
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 8:09]
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| Police State? (n/t) on 08:56 - Mar 25 with 4239 views | Guthrum |
Thing is, these extraordinary laws are solely designed to enforce social isolation and prop the country up in the meantime.
Now it may be a science-fiction authoritarian fantasy to keep everyone separated and rule the roost, but in reality that is utterly inimical to the functioning of the economy. People need to gather together to work, do business and trade. Unless the Government wants to keep spending at an eye-watering rate (with severely reduced tax income) pretty much indefinitely, they are going to have to relax these restrictions at some point - after the minimum practical period. Otherwise they will have no country left to govern. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 09:00 - Mar 25 with 4213 views | StokieBlue |
What exactly was the point in mentioning the Tories in that post?
Any government would have had to take these steps as has been proven around the world.
It's all a bit tiresome and to be honest, unhelpful.
SB |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 09:04 - Mar 25 with 4205 views | Decoy_Octopus |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:23 - Mar 25 by bluelagos |
Few points.
Britain during the Miners strike in some aspects we were getting close to a police state. Police had powers to stop people traveling and were instrumental in breaking the strike using a whole range of tactics that were far from those associated with a free democracy. Just have a proper read up on the violence they instigated at Orgreave and how the BBC falsely reported it as if the police were attacked.
They also fitted up dozens of miners with fabricated statements and those prosecutions were later thrown out of court for that very reason.
But as my mate corrected me - their disgusting conduct then (and a few years later in covering up their responsibility for killing innocent football fans) - was nothing in comparison to the conduct seen in recent times in South America.
In Chile, under Pinochet, they instigated state murder. They arrested, tortured and murdered 1000s of people because of their political views.
So as much as it feels like it (And it doesn't feel nice) - no, it really isn't a police state. We are having a number of our freedoms removed - but for the greater good.
And how will you ever get compliance if the police don't have the powers to enforce the new rules / laws?
What is important is that as soon as the danger is over, that they don't retain those laws. Only time will tell if they (with Patel as home sec) will seek the opportunity but for now, I don't think we are there yet. and 93% support the laws tbf. |
Good post
I agree with the measures in place, but what you say in your last paragraph did briefly cross my mind.
Agree with Guthrum above though it would be hugely impractical and expensive (not to mention the social unrest it would eventually cause) |  | | |
| Police State? (n/t) on 09:25 - Mar 25 with 4158 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Police State? (n/t) on 07:29 - Mar 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. I think we can put to bed the “Boris is a fascist” claim.
It’s pretty clear that he’s a classic libertarian who has been very reluctant to turn the U.K. into anything that resembles a Police state. [Post edited 25 Mar 2020 7:30]
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He's not a fascist, but he's happy to be associated with people and act in a way that has a little bit of a whiff of fascism about them - Bannon for one. Wanting to reduce the influence of law over the executive as another (proposed judicial changes). Operating outside the law as a third (illegally closing Parliament). Blatant lying (propaganda) as a fourth.
My education on political ideologies wasn't the best, but I don't recall anything about demonising foreigners and wanting to operate outside the rule of law in classical libertarian. I don't think he's ideological enough to be categorised as anything. Boris isn't that complicated - he'll do whatever he has to to climb the greasy pole. That's the way he seems to me anyway. Many of the dodgy things he's done probably aren't even his own ideas; his own ambition makes him a useful vessel for others with darker motives. I think that makes him utterly untrustworthy (it's crazy really - we have 2 people in the cabinet who our secret services wouldn't' trust with sensitive information, including the PM).
(And in answer to the OP, no we're not a police state. I'd level the same response to the assumed CIL on the other thread; there have been a whole raft of increasing freedoms introduced in the UK over the last few decades. Be that the freedoms around gay rights, to the more obvious simple stuff like freedoms to live & work linked to our former EU membership - not the best example this year, granted, but we haven't been living in a society where our freedoms have only ever been taken away. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:36 - Mar 25 with 4084 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Police State? (n/t) on 08:56 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Thing is, these extraordinary laws are solely designed to enforce social isolation and prop the country up in the meantime.
Now it may be a science-fiction authoritarian fantasy to keep everyone separated and rule the roost, but in reality that is utterly inimical to the functioning of the economy. People need to gather together to work, do business and trade. Unless the Government wants to keep spending at an eye-watering rate (with severely reduced tax income) pretty much indefinitely, they are going to have to relax these restrictions at some point - after the minimum practical period. Otherwise they will have no country left to govern. |
I myself struggle to keep my calm when people see things as black and white - and or more frequently yell "When are they going to do X or Y"
Take the self employed proposed prop up. Now I completely understand how people will be nervous and it looks like an announcement on this may be tomorrow rather than today but can you imagine how complex this is. I believe Scandinavian countries are going to measure self employed peoples last three years average income and pay a percentage of the average. Problem is though things are never that simple, what if this is your first year and you haven't submitted anything yet? There will be loads of scenarios that won't fit in to the wrap - so these things take some time, it is important to get things right.
With regards to people continuing to go to work as they interpret their work as "Necessary", well this looks like it may need further measures but people should understand there is a lot of social conditioning going on here.
There is also a plain fact that needs to be considered, the virus will eventually blow itself out but if we are faced with an absolutely bankrupt economy at the end of it then it will be impossible to get back on our feet.
The whole situation is so fast moving and complex and people really need to get their heads around this.
As for the Police State thing, well I think Oldsmoker has been dipping into his isolation stash too much. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 10:42 - Mar 25 with 4065 views | giant_stow |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:36 - Mar 25 by Lord_Lucan |
I myself struggle to keep my calm when people see things as black and white - and or more frequently yell "When are they going to do X or Y"
Take the self employed proposed prop up. Now I completely understand how people will be nervous and it looks like an announcement on this may be tomorrow rather than today but can you imagine how complex this is. I believe Scandinavian countries are going to measure self employed peoples last three years average income and pay a percentage of the average. Problem is though things are never that simple, what if this is your first year and you haven't submitted anything yet? There will be loads of scenarios that won't fit in to the wrap - so these things take some time, it is important to get things right.
With regards to people continuing to go to work as they interpret their work as "Necessary", well this looks like it may need further measures but people should understand there is a lot of social conditioning going on here.
There is also a plain fact that needs to be considered, the virus will eventually blow itself out but if we are faced with an absolutely bankrupt economy at the end of it then it will be impossible to get back on our feet.
The whole situation is so fast moving and complex and people really need to get their heads around this.
As for the Police State thing, well I think Oldsmoker has been dipping into his isolation stash too much. |
I think there's a lot of group think going on which is resulting in desenters being leapt upon. personally, i don;t think there's anything wrong with thinking these issues through.
Having said that, I get why we need to do this social isolation thing and be together on that. I just wonder whether we'll also end up thanking people who doubted all this at some future point.
On the brighter side and with an eye on climate change, this whole thing proves that dramatic change is possible. Could even be seen as a dry run for the longer term changes that will be necessary to keep the planet habitable. |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:00 - Mar 25 with 4025 views | WeWereZombies |
| Police State? (n/t) on 09:00 - Mar 25 by StokieBlue |
What exactly was the point in mentioning the Tories in that post?
Any government would have had to take these steps as has been proven around the world.
It's all a bit tiresome and to be honest, unhelpful.
SB |
Well, the Conservatives are in charge of the administration. I can see that a Corbyn led administration would have done much the same thing but, in the very unlikely event granted, would a Swinson led administration have done better?
Whether you agree with Oldsmoker or not surely you can appreciate the erudite responses from bluelagos, SwanseaBlue, LordLucan and giantullaa? I doubt anyone is going to be making state wide decisions on the back of what we say here, so can we just act like a forum of football supporters (and a Nodger) and have a sensible debate? |  |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:06 - Mar 25 with 4008 views | Guthrum |
| Police State? (n/t) on 10:36 - Mar 25 by Lord_Lucan |
I myself struggle to keep my calm when people see things as black and white - and or more frequently yell "When are they going to do X or Y"
Take the self employed proposed prop up. Now I completely understand how people will be nervous and it looks like an announcement on this may be tomorrow rather than today but can you imagine how complex this is. I believe Scandinavian countries are going to measure self employed peoples last three years average income and pay a percentage of the average. Problem is though things are never that simple, what if this is your first year and you haven't submitted anything yet? There will be loads of scenarios that won't fit in to the wrap - so these things take some time, it is important to get things right.
With regards to people continuing to go to work as they interpret their work as "Necessary", well this looks like it may need further measures but people should understand there is a lot of social conditioning going on here.
There is also a plain fact that needs to be considered, the virus will eventually blow itself out but if we are faced with an absolutely bankrupt economy at the end of it then it will be impossible to get back on our feet.
The whole situation is so fast moving and complex and people really need to get their heads around this.
As for the Police State thing, well I think Oldsmoker has been dipping into his isolation stash too much. |
With the economy, everybody will be in pretty much the same boat. Even China - they may have recovered from their own outbreak, but all their main markets are currently being hammered, so to whom will they sell? If lenders push for too rapid repayment, there will merely be defaults. Their money is trapped.
I would say in a fast-moving emergency like this, it's more important to get something out, erring on the side of generosity. To prevent businesses going under and people being thrown onto the benefits system. Discrepancies can be cleared up later, possibly through making any handouts taxable. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:10 - Mar 25 with 3994 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:06 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
With the economy, everybody will be in pretty much the same boat. Even China - they may have recovered from their own outbreak, but all their main markets are currently being hammered, so to whom will they sell? If lenders push for too rapid repayment, there will merely be defaults. Their money is trapped.
I would say in a fast-moving emergency like this, it's more important to get something out, erring on the side of generosity. To prevent businesses going under and people being thrown onto the benefits system. Discrepancies can be cleared up later, possibly through making any handouts taxable. |
Sorry Guthers but I'm not sure what part of my post you are arguing with | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:19 - Mar 25 with 3978 views | Guthrum |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:10 - Mar 25 by Lord_Lucan |
Sorry Guthers but I'm not sure what part of my post you are arguing with |
I'm not, with most of it, tho think there needs to be a greater emphasis on getting something out for the self-employed quickly, with more blanket coverage, rather than necessarily a complete or fine-tuned system. Any complications can be sorted out later. The proportion of people getting money who don't need it is a small issue compared with the risk to those not getting it who do. Will also make it easier for people to take the decision to isolate instead of continuing to work.
Also just adding my thoughts to your comments about the economy. | |
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:26 - Mar 25 with 3965 views | StokieBlue |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:06 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
With the economy, everybody will be in pretty much the same boat. Even China - they may have recovered from their own outbreak, but all their main markets are currently being hammered, so to whom will they sell? If lenders push for too rapid repayment, there will merely be defaults. Their money is trapped.
I would say in a fast-moving emergency like this, it's more important to get something out, erring on the side of generosity. To prevent businesses going under and people being thrown onto the benefits system. Discrepancies can be cleared up later, possibly through making any handouts taxable. |
Do you think that some members of the public who have had to continue working throughout the crisis and haven't received anything from the government will feel put out at large parts of the population getting money?
I honestly hope not but there is a potential social issue there which might rear it's head in the future.
Do you think some form of UBI might have been a better and less complicated way to go? Might not have been feasible at the levels required though.
Totally agree that something needs to be done to ensure that everyone has access to some funds at this time. Hopefully the announcement for freelancers will be today but as Lucan pointed out - it's harder to work out what to provide people in this case.
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| Police State? (n/t) on 11:36 - Mar 25 with 3929 views | Guthrum |
| Police State? (n/t) on 11:26 - Mar 25 by StokieBlue |
Do you think that some members of the public who have had to continue working throughout the crisis and haven't received anything from the government will feel put out at large parts of the population getting money?
I honestly hope not but there is a potential social issue there which might rear it's head in the future.
Do you think some form of UBI might have been a better and less complicated way to go? Might not have been feasible at the levels required though.
Totally agree that something needs to be done to ensure that everyone has access to some funds at this time. Hopefully the announcement for freelancers will be today but as Lucan pointed out - it's harder to work out what to provide people in this case.
SB |
They might do, but it is likely their income will not have been reduced, they won't have deferred payments to catch up with (e.g. mortgages), nor will they have had the stress and uncertainty of not knowing how their finances are going to be covered.
Given a proportion of those are among the most precarious and lowest paid (e.g. supermarket staff, takeaway delivery people), then itr is perhaps not an unfair rebalancing.
UBI would be tricky, as cost of living varies so much around the country and across different groups. I would be fine on £1k per month, that probably wouldn't cover your rent in London or central Manchester, or payments if you have a large mortgage. Also, it gets very expensive if stretching longer than three or four months. | |
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