| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today 09:34 - May 31 with 6730 views | Steve_M |
They make in interesting comparison with us, they have lower revenue, lower income but have consistently sold players and reinvested it and have out-performed us over the three years since 2014-15.
Yes, they couldn't do this without a wealthy owner prepared to put money in but this has surely been done more coherently than Evans' approach over the last decade. Brentford are an example of doing things more cleverly, where it isn't just about the size of the wage bill.
Evans has talked a bit about a new approach but, since the initial splurge of spending, his entire approach has been reliant on the first team manager to out-perform the budget. If Bart goes for £4m then how much of that will get reinvested?
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:37 - May 31 with 4829 views | Reuser_is_God |
Evans not reinvesting just doesn’t make sense.
The only way he’ll recoup his investment in Town is by getting promotion & the only way we’ll get promoted is by investing in the squad.
Let’s hope he’s learnt from the debacles of summer 15 & 16 windows when we received good fees but recruited poorly. |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:40 - May 31 with 4798 views | Bluefish |
Will the new stadium have much of an impact? |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:50 - May 31 with 4741 views | Steve_M |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:40 - May 31 by Bluefish |
Will the new stadium have much of an impact? |
According to the full thread, they've reduced the planned capacity to make it more sustainable. I suspect they are running up against maximum potential crowd sizes unless they get promoted and get all the glory hunters that would entail.
Given the owner is funding it, then I doubt it will affect them much in the short-term but probably not give them great benefits either. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:52 - May 31 with 4728 views | Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:50 - May 31 by Steve_M |
According to the full thread, they've reduced the planned capacity to make it more sustainable. I suspect they are running up against maximum potential crowd sizes unless they get promoted and get all the glory hunters that would entail.
Given the owner is funding it, then I doubt it will affect them much in the short-term but probably not give them great benefits either. |
Fulham going up will severely screw them for daytrippers in that region too I'd have thought |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:54 - May 31 with 4715 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
One thing to remember, their owner made his fortune from analysing and evaluating statistics.
It does look like a good model, but do other clubs have the expertise to operate it as well as Brentford do?
Theyve also received some huge transfer fees, which has a bit to do with luck as well as good judgement. |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:56 - May 31 with 4714 views | homer_123 |
Interesting Steve - thanks.
As I've stated, ad infinitum, Evans and the Club have made it patently clear that the financial situation isn't changing. Hurst will be working under the same circumstances that Mick did, effectively with one hand tied behind his back.
I've no doubt 'some' funds will be available but the reason Hurst has been selected is for the exact reason you mention 'our perform budget'. In effect, we have a younger Mick manager (not in terms of style from what I can see, Hurst is happy to to play football and be pragmatic..although that is slightly Mick'esq) who has a history of getting more out of his team than budget allows (although wasn't his budget at Grimsby, by the time they were promoted, something like the 4th largest?).
Mick's net income is broadly £16m for his time at Town, his outlay is about £3m - that's a new transfer profit to Evans of £13m - some of that will have gone back on loan fees and wages but nowhere near all of it.
Your question re. Bart is pertinent in this respect.
Our biggest problem remains our owner, or rather our owners approach to financing. Laudable it maybe to run a tight ship but the concern is that we are past drifting in this league and run the risk of being dragged to the bottom. |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:59 - May 31 with 4693 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:56 - May 31 by homer_123 |
Interesting Steve - thanks.
As I've stated, ad infinitum, Evans and the Club have made it patently clear that the financial situation isn't changing. Hurst will be working under the same circumstances that Mick did, effectively with one hand tied behind his back.
I've no doubt 'some' funds will be available but the reason Hurst has been selected is for the exact reason you mention 'our perform budget'. In effect, we have a younger Mick manager (not in terms of style from what I can see, Hurst is happy to to play football and be pragmatic..although that is slightly Mick'esq) who has a history of getting more out of his team than budget allows (although wasn't his budget at Grimsby, by the time they were promoted, something like the 4th largest?).
Mick's net income is broadly £16m for his time at Town, his outlay is about £3m - that's a new transfer profit to Evans of £13m - some of that will have gone back on loan fees and wages but nowhere near all of it.
Your question re. Bart is pertinent in this respect.
Our biggest problem remains our owner, or rather our owners approach to financing. Laudable it maybe to run a tight ship but the concern is that we are past drifting in this league and run the risk of being dragged to the bottom. |
Its easy to say that Evans net income from transfers during micks tenure was £13m, and assume he pocketed it.
You also have to take into account net losses each season of c.£6m. so thats £30m+ during Micks tenure.
Thats a big loss to take, and shows that ME isnt really 'pocketing' anything. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:03 - May 31 with 4664 views | Slambo |
Really interesting, cheers for this mate. If I recall, Brentford dispensed entirely with their youth academy; so you have to ask: if Ipswich can do what Brentford do - reinvest player sales into the playing squad, BUT ALSO have a fruitful youth academy - have we struck upon an improved system..? |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:16 - May 31 with 4607 views | TractorWood |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:59 - May 31 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its easy to say that Evans net income from transfers during micks tenure was £13m, and assume he pocketed it.
You also have to take into account net losses each season of c.£6m. so thats £30m+ during Micks tenure.
Thats a big loss to take, and shows that ME isnt really 'pocketing' anything. |
His average loss during the Mick tenure is much less than £6m on average. More like £3m. |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:31 - May 31 with 4561 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:16 - May 31 by TractorWood |
His average loss during the Mick tenure is much less than £6m on average. More like £3m. |
The numbers below show the clubs operating loss for Micks tenure, which is c.£37m.
Sure, you can then take away the profit on sale that the previous poster mentioned of £13. That still leaves a loss of c.£24m over five years, Thats a pretty heavy subsidy from ME, and shows that he is not simply 'pocketing' cash.
2017 - Operating loss £7.8m
2016 - c.£6.5m
2015 - c.£6.1m
2014 - c.£6.9m
2013 - c.£9.9m | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:38 - May 31 with 4547 views | Radlett_blue |
Brentford have also scrapped their academy, saving around £1.5m a year. They were fed up with their better prospects being poached, with derisory compensation, although they still run a "B" team, picking up later developers who have been discarded by big clubs.
If Evans did the same at Town, I could imagine the outcry. |  |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:39 - May 31 with 4532 views | Guthrum |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:16 - May 31 by TractorWood |
His average loss during the Mick tenure is much less than £6m on average. More like £3m. |
Altho the average was brought down by those incoming transfer fees (which do appear in the accounts). Either way, Evans is making a fair-sized net loss with the club. [Post edited 31 May 2018 10:44]
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:39 - May 31 with 4527 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:38 - May 31 by Radlett_blue |
Brentford have also scrapped their academy, saving around £1.5m a year. They were fed up with their better prospects being poached, with derisory compensation, although they still run a "B" team, picking up later developers who have been discarded by big clubs.
If Evans did the same at Town, I could imagine the outcry. |
I don't see why we would.
Our academy is currently producing first team talent. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:44 - May 31 with 4517 views | Guthrum |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:38 - May 31 by Radlett_blue |
Brentford have also scrapped their academy, saving around £1.5m a year. They were fed up with their better prospects being poached, with derisory compensation, although they still run a "B" team, picking up later developers who have been discarded by big clubs.
If Evans did the same at Town, I could imagine the outcry. |
Brentford have a disadvantage in that respect, being located within the TfL area, where a number of large and wealthy clubs can purloin youngsters without them having to move. We are much further out, giving a certain degree of inertia with kids who don't want to be moving away from their parents yet. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:46 - May 31 with 4504 views | Johnny_Boy |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:38 - May 31 by Radlett_blue |
Brentford have also scrapped their academy, saving around £1.5m a year. They were fed up with their better prospects being poached, with derisory compensation, although they still run a "B" team, picking up later developers who have been discarded by big clubs.
If Evans did the same at Town, I could imagine the outcry. |
Just trawled back through my posts to Feb.
https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/05/brentford-ditched-their-academy |  | | |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:48 - May 31 with 4481 views | homer_123 |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:59 - May 31 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its easy to say that Evans net income from transfers during micks tenure was £13m, and assume he pocketed it.
You also have to take into account net losses each season of c.£6m. so thats £30m+ during Micks tenure.
Thats a big loss to take, and shows that ME isnt really 'pocketing' anything. |
I haven't said he's pocketed anything MM.
What I was pointing out was that, under Mick, he's had a significant transfer net income. He's clearly still funding the Club. The situation under Hurst isn't going to change - Evans and the Club have made that patently clear.
Hurst will be operating with the same budget constraints. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:49 - May 31 with 4473 views | Superfrans |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:52 - May 31 by Mullet |
Fulham going up will severely screw them for daytrippers in that region too I'd have thought |
If you're in the Prem, day-trippers will never be a problem in London. Going to a Premiership match is like going to a West End show now, assuming you can get a ticket. |  |
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| Also on 10:52 - May 31 with 4478 views | Johnny_Boy |
On the Naked Footy Show, Milne mentioned an un-named Championship club which universally came to the agreement (manager/board/owner) of not loaning-in players, thus using the Yoofs on the bench for experience & saving wages. I had no idea of who that club were, but a brief look at Brentford's soccerbase page suggests they had nobody on loan last season.
Surely they must be the only team in this division to do so. If I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected - if anyone knows for sure.
I can certainly see pros & cons for this. It would be an exceptionally gutsy move. [Post edited 31 May 2018 11:04]
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:56 - May 31 with 4447 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:44 - May 31 by Guthrum |
Brentford have a disadvantage in that respect, being located within the TfL area, where a number of large and wealthy clubs can purloin youngsters without them having to move. We are much further out, giving a certain degree of inertia with kids who don't want to be moving away from their parents yet. |
A lot of those local young players would probably have been better off being at a club like Brentford.
The so called big premier league clubs produced very few of the current england squad, a large proportion came through the ranks at Championship clubs. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:59 - May 31 with 4424 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:48 - May 31 by homer_123 |
I haven't said he's pocketed anything MM.
What I was pointing out was that, under Mick, he's had a significant transfer net income. He's clearly still funding the Club. The situation under Hurst isn't going to change - Evans and the Club have made that patently clear.
Hurst will be operating with the same budget constraints. |
I agree, you have stated what we all know.
Thats fine by me, I dont believe that there is anything wrong in ME's approach. Hurst has accepted the job on those parameters.
Would I like to see him spend more? Yes.
Do I think he should? I think he's perfectly entitled to run the club how he see's fit. I can completely understand why he takes the approach that he does, and I dont have a problem with it. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 11:01 - May 31 with 4417 views | homer_123 |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:59 - May 31 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I agree, you have stated what we all know.
Thats fine by me, I dont believe that there is anything wrong in ME's approach. Hurst has accepted the job on those parameters.
Would I like to see him spend more? Yes.
Do I think he should? I think he's perfectly entitled to run the club how he see's fit. I can completely understand why he takes the approach that he does, and I dont have a problem with it. |
As I say, a laudable approach. He's absolutely entitled to do as he pleases.
The issue is - is merely appointing Hurst enough to keep us competitive in this league?
Also, the only way Evans can get any kind of return for the investment he has made in the Club is to get promoted.
It's clear we've been stagnating - I'm not 100% convinced a simple change in Manager is going to achieve that. | |
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| Also on 11:02 - May 31 with 4422 views | Radlett_blue |
| Also on 10:52 - May 31 by Johnny_Boy |
On the Naked Footy Show, Milne mentioned an un-named Championship club which universally came to the agreement (manager/board/owner) of not loaning-in players, thus using the Yoofs on the bench for experience & saving wages. I had no idea of who that club were, but a brief look at Brentford's soccerbase page suggests they had nobody on loan last season.
Surely they must be the only team in this division to do so. If I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected - if anyone knows for sure.
I can certainly see pros & cons for this. It would be an exceptionally gutsy move. [Post edited 31 May 2018 11:04]
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I will be interested to see Hurst's attitude to loans. We've had some very good ones in recent years plus some squad-filling dross; I doubt he will have the same degree of contacts as Mick did, although Klug has strong links with Spurs. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 11:02 - May 31 with 4415 views | Superfrans |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 09:56 - May 31 by homer_123 |
Interesting Steve - thanks.
As I've stated, ad infinitum, Evans and the Club have made it patently clear that the financial situation isn't changing. Hurst will be working under the same circumstances that Mick did, effectively with one hand tied behind his back.
I've no doubt 'some' funds will be available but the reason Hurst has been selected is for the exact reason you mention 'our perform budget'. In effect, we have a younger Mick manager (not in terms of style from what I can see, Hurst is happy to to play football and be pragmatic..although that is slightly Mick'esq) who has a history of getting more out of his team than budget allows (although wasn't his budget at Grimsby, by the time they were promoted, something like the 4th largest?).
Mick's net income is broadly £16m for his time at Town, his outlay is about £3m - that's a new transfer profit to Evans of £13m - some of that will have gone back on loan fees and wages but nowhere near all of it.
Your question re. Bart is pertinent in this respect.
Our biggest problem remains our owner, or rather our owners approach to financing. Laudable it maybe to run a tight ship but the concern is that we are past drifting in this league and run the risk of being dragged to the bottom. |
Agree in general. But the owner saying that we are going to continue to run a tight ship financially, a sustainable model, doesn't preclude a slightly more flexible approach in certain areas - most notably in transfer funds.
I've said this before as well - I don't have a problem with his general attitude towards finances. It is a good thing to run a sustainable club, with moneys in generally matching moneys out. And I don't feel I should be lobbying for someone to dip into his pocket to the tune of £20-£20m for 3-4 years just to keep me happy.
But personally, what I would prefer (and I assume any manager would demand this too - and can't understand why Mick didn't, or why Hurst wouldn't) is that income from sales of players is ploughed back into the playing budget. It makes absolutely no sense to say to a manager that, if he brings in a player for £200,000 and sells him two years later for £1.2m, that he can't use that £1m to invest into the team. By NOT taking this reinvestment approach, the owner would be penalising the manager for finding quality bargains.
Yet, this is clearly what happened in 2014/15 when we made a profit of £5.4m - income boosted from the sale of Mings to Bournemouth.
What would make most sense (it seems to me) is to run the club with a budgeted loss every year of roughly £4m (for instance). It would be possible to run this across a 2/3 year period (budgeting aggregate loss of £12m over 3 years, for instance).
But the principle would be that if, because of player sales, we are heading towards a break even position that £4m would be used to fund player recruitment (or £3m if we're only heading for a £1m loss, for instance). | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 11:12 - May 31 with 4376 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 11:01 - May 31 by homer_123 |
As I say, a laudable approach. He's absolutely entitled to do as he pleases.
The issue is - is merely appointing Hurst enough to keep us competitive in this league?
Also, the only way Evans can get any kind of return for the investment he has made in the Club is to get promoted.
It's clear we've been stagnating - I'm not 100% convinced a simple change in Manager is going to achieve that. |
That depends what you're looking for.
My benchmark for Hurst is for him to out perform his budget and to play better football.
Id be more than happy with a top half finish.
I dont think that most fans necessarily expect a huge upturn in league position, just a change in how we get there. | |
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| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 11:12 - May 31 with 4379 views | TractorWood |
| Swiss Ramble has done some stuff on Brentford today on 10:31 - May 31 by Marshalls_Mullet |
The numbers below show the clubs operating loss for Micks tenure, which is c.£37m.
Sure, you can then take away the profit on sale that the previous poster mentioned of £13. That still leaves a loss of c.£24m over five years, Thats a pretty heavy subsidy from ME, and shows that he is not simply 'pocketing' cash.
2017 - Operating loss £7.8m
2016 - c.£6.5m
2015 - c.£6.1m
2014 - c.£6.9m
2013 - c.£9.9m |
Operating loss isn't how much Evans' loses every year but your later sentence is more reflective of reality, which is as per Companies House £3.2m loss for the last 4 years. As below:
30/06/14 - £7.3m loss
30/06/15 - £5.5m profit
30/06/16 - £6.6m loss
30/06/17 - £4.3m loss
Interestingly if you extend this to 30/06/13 when we lost £9.8m, this creeps the average loss up to £4.5m per year.
I don't know why you would exclude player sales when analysing the finances of a football club. | |
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