| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority 09:01 - Mar 25 with 3607 views | Pinewoodblue |
Seems to me that progression from academy to the first team is a current weakness in our set up.
We look for young players with Cat1 pedigree , our own youngster being slower to mature presumably the quality of teams our youngsters play leaves something to be desired.
While we send our youngsters out on loan to lower divisions we look to recruit others of the same age. |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:09 - Mar 25 with 2919 views | FrankfurtBlue |
Agreed.
Sad, when you consider how youth development was one of our main strengths back in the day.
Unfortunately, that is one thing for which there is no quick fix. Lack of good management and investment in infrastructure, staffing and recruitment over so many years, together with the acceptance of Cat2 status, the encroachment of Cat1 clubs on our patch, and the poaching by "big clubs" of our youngsters before we even had a chance to blood them, have all contributed to a relatively poor return of youngsters graduating into the 1st team.
I was really surprised by Mark Ashton's previous statements about not needing Cat1 status, but am glad that there appears to have been a re-assessment of that now. |  | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:18 - Mar 25 with 2889 views | Guthrum |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:09 - Mar 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
Agreed.
Sad, when you consider how youth development was one of our main strengths back in the day.
Unfortunately, that is one thing for which there is no quick fix. Lack of good management and investment in infrastructure, staffing and recruitment over so many years, together with the acceptance of Cat2 status, the encroachment of Cat1 clubs on our patch, and the poaching by "big clubs" of our youngsters before we even had a chance to blood them, have all contributed to a relatively poor return of youngsters graduating into the 1st team.
I was really surprised by Mark Ashton's previous statements about not needing Cat1 status, but am glad that there appears to have been a re-assessment of that now. |
Think part of the problem was that getting Cat1 status was going to be impossible in League One. Few outside the Prem have been allowed to pass the assessment, let alone a division further down. |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:37 - Mar 25 with 2825 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:18 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Think part of the problem was that getting Cat1 status was going to be impossible in League One. Few outside the Prem have been allowed to pass the assessment, let alone a division further down. |
I think we had de-prioritised our academy well before relegation. | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:43 - Mar 25 with 2815 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:09 - Mar 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
Agreed.
Sad, when you consider how youth development was one of our main strengths back in the day.
Unfortunately, that is one thing for which there is no quick fix. Lack of good management and investment in infrastructure, staffing and recruitment over so many years, together with the acceptance of Cat2 status, the encroachment of Cat1 clubs on our patch, and the poaching by "big clubs" of our youngsters before we even had a chance to blood them, have all contributed to a relatively poor return of youngsters graduating into the 1st team.
I was really surprised by Mark Ashton's previous statements about not needing Cat1 status, but am glad that there appears to have been a re-assessment of that now. |
Think the academy actually did pretty well in the latter years under ME, albeit with most of them have gone elsewhere. Humphreys and Woolfenden in and around the first team here, Gibbs at Norwich - the academy can't be blamed for his exit - Tawanda getting a taste of first-team football at Wolves, Tyreece Simpson getting a Championship move when we were in League One, Calum Logan gone to Tottenham and now having signed a pro deal. Dobra has a lot of interest further up the leagues for his performances at Chesterfield.
Also those coaches moved on to Premier League clubs, Adem Atay to Villa - although he's now left - Sam Darlow to Forest. Scott Mitchell, who was in charge of recruitment in the academy, is now in charge of first-team recruitment at Wycombe. |  | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:45 - Mar 25 with 2792 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:18 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Think part of the problem was that getting Cat1 status was going to be impossible in League One. Few outside the Prem have been allowed to pass the assessment, let alone a division further down. |
Mark Ashton was pretty open that he didn't see it as a priority when they came in, not sure the division was related to that, felt that other than the games programme - which academy coaches had also cited previously as the main benefit - he didn't see the need for it. Evidently, the new money has pushed it up the list. | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:56 - Mar 25 with 2719 views | Guthrum |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:37 - Mar 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
I think we had de-prioritised our academy well before relegation. |
I meant specifically in relation to Ashton's comments. | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 11:30 - Mar 25 with 2642 views | SheffordBlue |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:45 - Mar 25 by PhilTWTD |
Mark Ashton was pretty open that he didn't see it as a priority when they came in, not sure the division was related to that, felt that other than the games programme - which academy coaches had also cited previously as the main benefit - he didn't see the need for it. Evidently, the new money has pushed it up the list. |
Part of his reasoning seemed to be that the future of the Category system as it stood wasn't clear and that we could spend a lot of money trying to reach the standard only for the standard to change (or that was my understanding of his comments). There doesn't really seem to be anything in the public domain suggesting that this has changed unless I've missed something. Like you say, maybe the extra money means that if the standard does change then it's less of an impact on limited resources. |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 11:58 - Mar 25 with 2540 views | FrankfurtBlue |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:43 - Mar 25 by PhilTWTD |
Think the academy actually did pretty well in the latter years under ME, albeit with most of them have gone elsewhere. Humphreys and Woolfenden in and around the first team here, Gibbs at Norwich - the academy can't be blamed for his exit - Tawanda getting a taste of first-team football at Wolves, Tyreece Simpson getting a Championship move when we were in League One, Calum Logan gone to Tottenham and now having signed a pro deal. Dobra has a lot of interest further up the leagues for his performances at Chesterfield.
Also those coaches moved on to Premier League clubs, Adem Atay to Villa - although he's now left - Sam Darlow to Forest. Scott Mitchell, who was in charge of recruitment in the academy, is now in charge of first-team recruitment at Wycombe. |
ME stated his aim was that half the 1st team should consist of academy graduates, and we just got nowhere near it.
In recent seasons, who has played regular first team football as an academy graduate? Other than Woolf, Dozzell and Downes, is there anyone else? We used to be good at turning out some star players for the benefit of our 1st team, before selling them on. Even after SBR, the likes of Dalian Atkinson, Dozzell & Kiwomya, Wrighty, Dyer, Wickham. Yes, we get a compensational type fee, if we have young players poached from our academy, but that doesn't really help us progress as a club, does it?
Coaches moving on to better jobs elsewhere benefits them and the others clubs, but how does it benefit us as a club? | | | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 12:12 - Mar 25 with 2489 views | ArnieM |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:18 - Mar 25 by Guthrum |
Think part of the problem was that getting Cat1 status was going to be impossible in League One. Few outside the Prem have been allowed to pass the assessment, let alone a division further down. |
Just your observation of “ being allowed to pass the assessment “, demonstrates to me how hollow this cat 1 academy system all is. In my view It’s a “closed club” for the PL clubs.. one or two have circumvented it, but not many. But if it prevents us being mugged for our talent by the so clawed bigger clubs, then I’m all for it. But this system sickens me if I’m being honest. |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 12:47 - Mar 25 with 2404 views | Vic |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 11:58 - Mar 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
ME stated his aim was that half the 1st team should consist of academy graduates, and we just got nowhere near it.
In recent seasons, who has played regular first team football as an academy graduate? Other than Woolf, Dozzell and Downes, is there anyone else? We used to be good at turning out some star players for the benefit of our 1st team, before selling them on. Even after SBR, the likes of Dalian Atkinson, Dozzell & Kiwomya, Wrighty, Dyer, Wickham. Yes, we get a compensational type fee, if we have young players poached from our academy, but that doesn't really help us progress as a club, does it?
Coaches moving on to better jobs elsewhere benefits them and the others clubs, but how does it benefit us as a club? |
Apart from a golden age in the early 70's and a smaller one in 90's under Burley, I think we've actually been pretty middling in terms of producing through our academy system. Your list is spread over quite a few years.
I'm wracking my brains to think who we've produced that has actually went on to do much. Help me out guys.
1982 onwards: Cranson, Kiwomya, Dozzer (mk1), Stockwell, Atkinson,
1990's - Dyer, Ambrose, Titus, Wright
2000's - it's getting harder
2010's - it's very hard! |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:00 - Mar 25 with 2362 views | itfcjoe |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 12:12 - Mar 25 by ArnieM |
Just your observation of “ being allowed to pass the assessment “, demonstrates to me how hollow this cat 1 academy system all is. In my view It’s a “closed club” for the PL clubs.. one or two have circumvented it, but not many. But if it prevents us being mugged for our talent by the so clawed bigger clubs, then I’m all for it. But this system sickens me if I’m being honest. |
This is a bit of a myth that Ipswich tried to put out as we did it on the cheap under Evans, there are 26 Cat 1 academies - and 11 of them are from sides outside the PL, and a number of these are clubs who applied and got the status when they were EFL clubs.
It's not a closed shop, it just costs money and we are now in a position where we look like are willing to spend it so it will get done |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:20 - Mar 25 with 2279 views | blue62 |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 10:43 - Mar 25 by PhilTWTD |
Think the academy actually did pretty well in the latter years under ME, albeit with most of them have gone elsewhere. Humphreys and Woolfenden in and around the first team here, Gibbs at Norwich - the academy can't be blamed for his exit - Tawanda getting a taste of first-team football at Wolves, Tyreece Simpson getting a Championship move when we were in League One, Calum Logan gone to Tottenham and now having signed a pro deal. Dobra has a lot of interest further up the leagues for his performances at Chesterfield.
Also those coaches moved on to Premier League clubs, Adem Atay to Villa - although he's now left - Sam Darlow to Forest. Scott Mitchell, who was in charge of recruitment in the academy, is now in charge of first-team recruitment at Wycombe. |
Also Gerrard Nash is with Villa. |  | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:31 - Mar 25 with 2254 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:20 - Mar 25 by blue62 |
Also Gerrard Nash is with Villa. |
Ah yes, forgot about that. | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:33 - Mar 25 with 2240 views | soupytwist |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 12:47 - Mar 25 by Vic |
Apart from a golden age in the early 70's and a smaller one in 90's under Burley, I think we've actually been pretty middling in terms of producing through our academy system. Your list is spread over quite a few years.
I'm wracking my brains to think who we've produced that has actually went on to do much. Help me out guys.
1982 onwards: Cranson, Kiwomya, Dozzer (mk1), Stockwell, Atkinson,
1990's - Dyer, Ambrose, Titus, Wright
2000's - it's getting harder
2010's - it's very hard! |
Darren Bent and James Scowcroft are missing from your list.
If you're including players who had a reasonable league career then Dean Bowditch and Ed Upson could be added. |  | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:36 - Mar 25 with 2237 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 11:58 - Mar 25 by FrankfurtBlue |
ME stated his aim was that half the 1st team should consist of academy graduates, and we just got nowhere near it.
In recent seasons, who has played regular first team football as an academy graduate? Other than Woolf, Dozzell and Downes, is there anyone else? We used to be good at turning out some star players for the benefit of our 1st team, before selling them on. Even after SBR, the likes of Dalian Atkinson, Dozzell & Kiwomya, Wrighty, Dyer, Wickham. Yes, we get a compensational type fee, if we have young players poached from our academy, but that doesn't really help us progress as a club, does it?
Coaches moving on to better jobs elsewhere benefits them and the others clubs, but how does it benefit us as a club? |
I listed a few, most of whom moved on for one reason or another.
The poaching of our players isn't going to change if we're cat one. Cat one clubs regularly have their best players poached by the big clubs. That will still happen.
The point re coaches was that we evidently had coaches who were seen to be doing a good job by other clubs, many of them up a level.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:39 - Mar 25 with 2188 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 11:30 - Mar 25 by SheffordBlue |
Part of his reasoning seemed to be that the future of the Category system as it stood wasn't clear and that we could spend a lot of money trying to reach the standard only for the standard to change (or that was my understanding of his comments). There doesn't really seem to be anything in the public domain suggesting that this has changed unless I've missed something. Like you say, maybe the extra money means that if the standard does change then it's less of an impact on limited resources. |
No, I've not seen anything regarding that either. Agree, would have less of an impact. Also tied up with training ground improvements, no doubt, as facilities come into the reckoning. | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:51 - Mar 25 with 2162 views | Kropotkin123 |
Any decent player gets poached by the the biggest clubs. Without more significant protection for academies, I don't see the benefit. Gone are the days of a Dyer, Bent, or Ambrose making their way through imo.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this front. |  |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:54 - Mar 25 with 2148 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:33 - Mar 25 by soupytwist |
Darren Bent and James Scowcroft are missing from your list.
If you're including players who had a reasonable league career then Dean Bowditch and Ed Upson could be added. |
We're not aiming for the power leagues, so not much point adding them imo.
Wickham and Rhodes are two I would add in addition to Bent and Scowcroft | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 14:05 - Mar 25 with 2115 views | itfcjoe |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:51 - Mar 25 by Kropotkin123 |
Any decent player gets poached by the the biggest clubs. Without more significant protection for academies, I don't see the benefit. Gone are the days of a Dyer, Bent, or Ambrose making their way through imo.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this front. |
I think you are, although you may lose them earlier than normal for a big fee opposed to them playing 100 or so games - but when you look at England U18, 19, 20, 21 squads there is a broad range of clubs (although mostly Cat 1) | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 14:50 - Mar 25 with 1970 views | ArnieM |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:00 - Mar 25 by itfcjoe |
This is a bit of a myth that Ipswich tried to put out as we did it on the cheap under Evans, there are 26 Cat 1 academies - and 11 of them are from sides outside the PL, and a number of these are clubs who applied and got the status when they were EFL clubs.
It's not a closed shop, it just costs money and we are now in a position where we look like are willing to spend it so it will get done |
Ah, ok thanks for,that info itfcjoe. Didn’t we fail to make the grade one season by something ridiculous like .03% ? I was led to believe that there is a quota of acceptance each round of applications for Cat1, and that season, Bristol City? Got the nod and not us?
I agree it costs an eye watering amount of money but that in itself almost makes it “ exclusive”, so whilst it’s not openly a closed shop, to all intents and purposes it behaves like one. But I’ll be duly guided by your information. | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 15:16 - Mar 25 with 1910 views | itfcjoe |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 14:50 - Mar 25 by ArnieM |
Ah, ok thanks for,that info itfcjoe. Didn’t we fail to make the grade one season by something ridiculous like .03% ? I was led to believe that there is a quota of acceptance each round of applications for Cat1, and that season, Bristol City? Got the nod and not us?
I agree it costs an eye watering amount of money but that in itself almost makes it “ exclusive”, so whilst it’s not openly a closed shop, to all intents and purposes it behaves like one. But I’ll be duly guided by your information. |
Yep, we missed out by a very small margin - it was billed as though we hadn't produced enough players which would have got us over the line, but think there was also a bit of software that we elected not to pay for to manually keep the records that also would have got us there as an example.
They may move the goalposts to make standards higher from time to time, but clubs are fully aware when they go in for an audit and we tried to just do enough and fell short, now we would be going over and above what is required to make sure because if Ashton says we'll get it, then we'll get it | |
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| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 15:54 - Mar 25 with 1830 views | PhilTWTD |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 15:16 - Mar 25 by itfcjoe |
Yep, we missed out by a very small margin - it was billed as though we hadn't produced enough players which would have got us over the line, but think there was also a bit of software that we elected not to pay for to manually keep the records that also would have got us there as an example.
They may move the goalposts to make standards higher from time to time, but clubs are fully aware when they go in for an audit and we tried to just do enough and fell short, now we would be going over and above what is required to make sure because if Ashton says we'll get it, then we'll get it |
Yes, we were impacted by the window in which they counted players which missed out a few of our more prominent graduates. We used our own bespoke software and there was a feeling we were unjustly punished for not using the Premier League's, if I remember rightly. | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 16:24 - Mar 25 with 1748 views | Sharkey |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:33 - Mar 25 by soupytwist |
Darren Bent and James Scowcroft are missing from your list.
If you're including players who had a reasonable league career then Dean Bowditch and Ed Upson could be added. |
Ian Westlake has an interesting quote on his Wikipedia page: "I might never have played professional football had it not been for relegation. Administration meant the club were forced to sell players and that opened the door for people like myself, Darren Bent and Darren Ambrose. It gave us our chance and, as odd as it sounds, I personally feel I owe my career to relegation." |  | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 16:44 - Mar 25 with 1696 views | Sharkey |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 12:47 - Mar 25 by Vic |
Apart from a golden age in the early 70's and a smaller one in 90's under Burley, I think we've actually been pretty middling in terms of producing through our academy system. Your list is spread over quite a few years.
I'm wracking my brains to think who we've produced that has actually went on to do much. Help me out guys.
1982 onwards: Cranson, Kiwomya, Dozzer (mk1), Stockwell, Atkinson,
1990's - Dyer, Ambrose, Titus, Wright
2000's - it's getting harder
2010's - it's very hard! |
There's a list of sorts here: https://www.transfermarkt.com/ipswich-town/jugendarbeit/verein/677
(Nick Pope included!) | | | |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 14:16 - Mar 26 with 1120 views | Hipsterectomy |
| Pleased to see Cat1 is a priority on 13:36 - Mar 25 by PhilTWTD |
I listed a few, most of whom moved on for one reason or another.
The poaching of our players isn't going to change if we're cat one. Cat one clubs regularly have their best players poached by the big clubs. That will still happen.
The point re coaches was that we evidently had coaches who were seen to be doing a good job by other clubs, many of them up a level.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Does the compensation increase if a Cat 1 poaches a Cat 1? |  |
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