| "Experts" 18:23 - Jan 24 with 1871 views | Trequartista |
Regarding the plane that crashed in Russia today which Russia claim was carrying Ukranian PoWs ...
1) Mark Voyger, former special adviser for Russian affairs to the US Army Europe ....
"We can safely rule out that the plane was carrying PoWs," he said.
The crashed plane is an expensive model, typically used by Russian air defence, he said.
He compared carrying PoWs in such an aircraft to "using a helicopter to go shopping".
Then on the same mainstream media channel....
2) Sky News team in Ukraine has spoken with a former PoW who had been part a previous exchange, who said the route and type of aircraft used to transport he and his comrades was similar to those of the plane that crashed this morning.
"The Il-76 - this is the workhorse of Russian transport, this is the kind of thing that they would use [for a swap like this]," she says.
How on earth are we supposed to understand what is going on? It's no wonder people start believing what they want to believe when you've got either a so-called expert just making things up or a former PoW just making things up.
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| "Experts" on 18:28 - Jan 24 with 1811 views | backwaywhen |
We’re not meant to understand , after all it is Russia we’re talking about ……..hear no evil , speak no evil ! |  | | |
| "Experts" on 19:33 - Jan 24 with 1636 views | Guthrum |
Reminds me very much of the incident some months ago when a barracks full of Ukrainian PoWs was hit by what the Russians said was Ukrainian artillery fire and many killed. Kyiv denied the shells had been fired by them. I don't think what really happened has ever been cleared up.
This may possibly have been a terrible cock-up. Somebody either forgot to inform the Ukrainians of the nature and route of the flight, or the message wasn't passed on to the right people, resulting in a shoot-down. |  |
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| "Experts" on 19:36 - Jan 24 with 1617 views | PhilTWTD |
| "Experts" on 19:33 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
Reminds me very much of the incident some months ago when a barracks full of Ukrainian PoWs was hit by what the Russians said was Ukrainian artillery fire and many killed. Kyiv denied the shells had been fired by them. I don't think what really happened has ever been cleared up.
This may possibly have been a terrible cock-up. Somebody either forgot to inform the Ukrainians of the nature and route of the flight, or the message wasn't passed on to the right people, resulting in a shoot-down. |
There seem very different versions of events circulating. The truth will, presumably, out to some extent eventually.
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| "Experts" on 19:38 - Jan 24 with 1594 views | matteoblue |
It doesn't matter how 'expert' they are. Their political opinion will nearly always cloud their better judgement. [Post edited 24 Jan 19:41]
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| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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| "Experts" on 19:39 - Jan 24 with 1570 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| "Experts" on 19:36 - Jan 24 by PhilTWTD |
There seem very different versions of events circulating. The truth will, presumably, out to some extent eventually.
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More fog than Oxford away. |  |
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| "Experts" on 19:53 - Jan 24 with 1523 views | Kievthegreat |
I doubt the truth will come out, but even if it did, it would be coming from Russian State sources so it will likely not be trusted.
It seems agreed that Ukraine shot this plane down and it wouldn't be the first time in war that a craft carrying POWs was destroyed. Happened multiple times in WW2. Obviously tragic, but you'd have to ask the question as to whether Russia passed on to Ukraine that this was carrying POWs prior to take off? They are flying a plane within IIRC 30 miles of the frontline. If no warning was given it's hugely irresponsible as the only reasonable assumption for people on the ground would be that any plane flying there was military as there is no civilian air traffic in that area anymore. |  | | |
| "Experts" on 23:09 - Jan 24 with 1194 views | PrrrromotionGiven |
As I understand it, the Russian narrative has been challenged on several details:
1. The suitability of the plane, as you mention
2. Previous POW exchanges were done via truck or bus
3. The plane in question via FlightRadar24 is believed to have travelled from Iran - obviously no Ukrainian prisoners are in Iran
4. Prisoners named by Russia to have died in the crash are actually matches for the names of prisoners that were already exchanged long ago. Not just one or two which could be a coincidence, but sixteen.
5. Lack of bodies in sufficient numbers seen in photographs of the crash site. Only two bodies can be seen.
6. Extremely fast and co-ordinated messaging from Russian officials, no delay or confusion at all, which could be a sign of a bottled excuse being ready for the next time one of their transport planes went down
Even without all of these, on any dispute my first instinct would be to assume Russia is lying because their track record is horrendous. I'm basically certain this plane was not full of Ukrainian hostages. If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims. [Post edited 24 Jan 23:10]
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| "Experts" on 07:07 - Jan 25 with 878 views | Pendejo |
| "Experts" on 23:09 - Jan 24 by PrrrromotionGiven |
As I understand it, the Russian narrative has been challenged on several details:
1. The suitability of the plane, as you mention
2. Previous POW exchanges were done via truck or bus
3. The plane in question via FlightRadar24 is believed to have travelled from Iran - obviously no Ukrainian prisoners are in Iran
4. Prisoners named by Russia to have died in the crash are actually matches for the names of prisoners that were already exchanged long ago. Not just one or two which could be a coincidence, but sixteen.
5. Lack of bodies in sufficient numbers seen in photographs of the crash site. Only two bodies can be seen.
6. Extremely fast and co-ordinated messaging from Russian officials, no delay or confusion at all, which could be a sign of a bottled excuse being ready for the next time one of their transport planes went down
Even without all of these, on any dispute my first instinct would be to assume Russia is lying because their track record is horrendous. I'm basically certain this plane was not full of Ukrainian hostages. If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims. [Post edited 24 Jan 23:10]
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| "Experts" on 08:00 - Jan 25 with 827 views | ChorleyBoy |
| "Experts" on 23:09 - Jan 24 by PrrrromotionGiven |
As I understand it, the Russian narrative has been challenged on several details:
1. The suitability of the plane, as you mention
2. Previous POW exchanges were done via truck or bus
3. The plane in question via FlightRadar24 is believed to have travelled from Iran - obviously no Ukrainian prisoners are in Iran
4. Prisoners named by Russia to have died in the crash are actually matches for the names of prisoners that were already exchanged long ago. Not just one or two which could be a coincidence, but sixteen.
5. Lack of bodies in sufficient numbers seen in photographs of the crash site. Only two bodies can be seen.
6. Extremely fast and co-ordinated messaging from Russian officials, no delay or confusion at all, which could be a sign of a bottled excuse being ready for the next time one of their transport planes went down
Even without all of these, on any dispute my first instinct would be to assume Russia is lying because their track record is horrendous. I'm basically certain this plane was not full of Ukrainian hostages. If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims. [Post edited 24 Jan 23:10]
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"If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims."
The Skripals
MH17
The annexation of Crimea
The war in Ukraine
All perfect examples of Western media parroting Russian state propaganda.Go on, whoosh me. |  | | |
| "Experts" on 08:53 - Jan 25 with 765 views | DJR |
| "Experts" on 23:09 - Jan 24 by PrrrromotionGiven |
As I understand it, the Russian narrative has been challenged on several details:
1. The suitability of the plane, as you mention
2. Previous POW exchanges were done via truck or bus
3. The plane in question via FlightRadar24 is believed to have travelled from Iran - obviously no Ukrainian prisoners are in Iran
4. Prisoners named by Russia to have died in the crash are actually matches for the names of prisoners that were already exchanged long ago. Not just one or two which could be a coincidence, but sixteen.
5. Lack of bodies in sufficient numbers seen in photographs of the crash site. Only two bodies can be seen.
6. Extremely fast and co-ordinated messaging from Russian officials, no delay or confusion at all, which could be a sign of a bottled excuse being ready for the next time one of their transport planes went down
Even without all of these, on any dispute my first instinct would be to assume Russia is lying because their track record is horrendous. I'm basically certain this plane was not full of Ukrainian hostages. If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims. [Post edited 24 Jan 23:10]
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If you look at things objectively, the British media has throughout uncritically printed Ukrainian claims on all sorts of issues.
The thing is that truth is the first casualty of war, and propaganda becomes an important tool, even in the case of Western liberal democracies.
But nothing I say detracts from the justness of the Ukrainian cause. [Post edited 25 Jan 9:02]
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| "Experts" on 09:12 - Jan 25 with 682 views | ElderGrizzly |
It was definitely an Il-76, so in no way at all a luxury plane. Fairly certain that model is banned from EU airspace even before the Russia/Ukraine war too.
It's the model of plane you'd want your enemies to be on. [Post edited 25 Jan 9:13]
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| "Experts" on 10:52 - Jan 25 with 546 views | PrrrromotionGiven |
| "Experts" on 08:00 - Jan 25 by ChorleyBoy |
"If only Western media outlets could show the same levels of very justified skepticism rather than just uncritically printing Russian claims."
The Skripals
MH17
The annexation of Crimea
The war in Ukraine
All perfect examples of Western media parroting Russian state propaganda.Go on, whoosh me. |
Skripals - no Russian narrative to speak of, since as far as they wanted to portray they had no involvement. Hence naturally nothing to print on ther behalf
MH17 - admittedly I can't really remember how this was covered in the initial days. Hard to imagine they gave significant scrutiny in the immediate aftermath to Russia's claims that it was basically Ukraine's fault.
Crimea - yes, they clearly hesitated to print the obvious fact that this was a Russian military occupation, not an impromptu action of Crimean civilians
War in Ukraine - we have just seen in the last day or two how many outlets still treat Russian official claims not just as credible sources but as outright facts with regards to saying with no proof what was on this plane. The same has happened many times vis-a-vis the Nova Khakovka dam, casualty claims, territorial claims, and so on. The logic is clearly print first, fact check later. | | | |
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