| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? 08:22 - Dec 24 with 3393 views | bournemouthblue |
Are we a bit too cavalier for teams who are able to absorb pressure and punish us on the counter?
It seems to me, teams with a big back four and flatter full backs, nullify us.
If you can stop Hirst winning headers and holding up the ball and you stick tight to Chaplin, that reduces our threat significantly. Burns is very dependent on the passing and moving with Chaplin down the right.
In games like Leeds and West Brom, I wonder if we'd be better off with a more traditional left winger, doubling up with Davis who gets caught out, pushed up the field at times. You can still have your number 10 but they to be a bit more tenacious defensively. I think Broadband and Chaplin can go missing a bit when it gets more physical.
I know a bit of perspective is needed, we have had an incredible season so far and not a lot has been wrong but we can certainly get better. I've no doubt we will recruit in January to try and trade up in one or two areas to help us get over the line. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:47 - Dec 24 with 2434 views | PioneerBlue |
There are only 2-4 teams where this applies this season so far! Our team shape is already highly versatile, depending on state of game and which players are starting or finishing. If this response is reaction to a poor result against Leeds, it’s fair to question but personally I would say Plan B in the traditional sense isn’t required. Our players all over the pitch need to be better at managing themselves in the big moments against big opposition. I’m not concerned by this one result, only if it becomes a pattern over next 3-6 games.
Im sure there is something in the way we are still conceding early quite regularly and considering our in and out of possession shape in the key moments, Eg first 5, 15, last 5 in first half. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:51 - Dec 24 with 2409 views | cressi |
I think in odd games the full back almost need to be full backs not so high up the pitch leaving so much space behind.
And other times I'm not against if required having 2 up front certainly if chasing a goal with twenty minutes to go.
But the last Yr has been fantastic
Although if we lose tomorrow one point from nine and transfer window required. | | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:54 - Dec 24 with 2388 views | Guthrum |
The problem being that if you have carefully constructed and drilled a squad to play in a certain style - which has brought great success - with numbers limited by the League, it is simply not possible to cover every eventuality. Bringing in defensively skilled players means sacrificing attacking ones on a long term basis.
It's not worth changing the whole setup for the half-dozen games a season against teams who can both run a watertight block and score good goals on the break. When what we are already doing works 70% of the time. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:57 - Dec 24 with 2370 views | BondiBlue |
Interesting point about the left winger. Leeds have summerville who is lightning quick and can break the line on the outside as well as cut in, meaning their left back doesn't have to run past him, like davis does, and he can focus on keeping an eye on the right winger. We'd have to look at doing something similar in the prem. This season just keep going as we have been - it's worked fine so far. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:02 - Dec 24 with 2350 views | GlasgowBlue |
Yes.
I think, to an extent, we’ve been worked out….. by GlasgowBlue 24 Dec 2023 8:55This always happens in the second half of the season. We are no longer a surprise element.
McKenna has been very good in the past at changing the tactics mid game or even tinkering with the team to suit the opposition, but it was very naive of him yesterday to go toe to toe with a far superior team. Even worse to continue with the sane game plan when it obviously wasn’t working.
We didn’t have to win yesterday. But it was important we didn’t lose. We aren’t going to play Leeds every week and we can okay our free flowing attacking football in 90% of the remaining games. But to give away a 10 point lead by attempting to go toe to toe with that multi million pound team in their own back yard was naive imo. The teams who have had joy at Elland Road such as Coventry, went with the intention of leaving with a point. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:04 - Dec 24 with 2339 views | Reuser_is_God |
We’ve got 52 points from 23 games, no need to change a thing. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:41 - Dec 24 with 2260 views | Scuzzer |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:51 - Dec 24 by cressi |
I think in odd games the full back almost need to be full backs not so high up the pitch leaving so much space behind.
And other times I'm not against if required having 2 up front certainly if chasing a goal with twenty minutes to go.
But the last Yr has been fantastic
Although if we lose tomorrow one point from nine and transfer window required. |
I agree. It was sad that Greg Leigh was allowed to leave as he was a better 'full back' than Leif...IMO. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:52 - Dec 24 with 2220 views | OldFart71 |
I agree, we need a plan B. But with the current team are we capable as the team is set up for attack. From Hladky through to Hirst. I did say prior to the game we shouldn't go gung-ho. Keep tight and if we get a chance take it. Personally I cannot see why Baggott hasn't had a chance to shine in this side. I thought when he came on against Fulham he looked assured and calm. If we keep shipping goals why not give him a run. Don't think we'll be relegated and I don't see us being ready for the Prem. | | | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 10:42 - Dec 24 with 2159 views | BondiBlue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:41 - Dec 24 by Scuzzer |
I agree. It was sad that Greg Leigh was allowed to leave as he was a better 'full back' than Leif...IMO. |
Davis is being asked to play VERY attacking. I'm sure he'd also be a very good defender if he was asked to defend. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 10:55 - Dec 24 with 2124 views | ITFCSG |
I did mention this before on here and on Facebook but was slated for doing so.
McK should have learnt from the defeat at PR in Aug that we could not go man-for-man with Leeds with the quality they had both in terms of speed and being clinical, much less at Elland Road. By getting our defensive players to push forward against Prem quality Leeds wingers is a kamikaze act which we all witnessed yesterday.
Look at how the scum played when they went 1-0 down at PR. Look at their approach when playing us vs playing Huddersfield at home. There is a marked difference.
We need a Plan B, not a drastic reshuffle but more of tweaking our approach and making it tighter in certain games. Getting a point or winning ugly (like what Sunderland did) is infinitely better than playing bravely and getting ripped apart.
The manner of defeat at West Brom and Leeds x2 certainly shows that while we can grind out wins or even dominate the relegation fodder and mid-table sides, we are still a work in progress if we want to be competitive with the top sides. Luckily we don’t have to beat them to go up.
Signings in Jan definitely needed. | | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 10:59 - Dec 24 with 2099 views | LeoMuff |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 09:52 - Dec 24 by OldFart71 |
I agree, we need a plan B. But with the current team are we capable as the team is set up for attack. From Hladky through to Hirst. I did say prior to the game we shouldn't go gung-ho. Keep tight and if we get a chance take it. Personally I cannot see why Baggott hasn't had a chance to shine in this side. I thought when he came on against Fulham he looked assured and calm. If we keep shipping goals why not give him a run. Don't think we'll be relegated and I don't see us being ready for the Prem. |
I think we do, I would have tried playing Taylor and or Humphries in the 10s and making us hard to play though, if we had got to 60-70 level then crowd would have been edgy, and we could have tried our more open game to win it.
Taylor always good for a piledriver from distance as well. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:02 - Dec 24 with 2085 views | BlueOura |
I think we do yes. We certainly need to be a lot less naive defensivley than we were yesterday. They nearly got in within the 1st 30 seconds yesterday but for a marginal offside and that kind of set the tone.
I would have liked us to have been a lot more cautious in the first 20 mins and kept a really tight defensive structure, before growing into the game.
We played like this against Leipzig in pre-season and I thought that was an exercise to prepare for games like Leeds away, but for me we were way too open from the word go.
I think we will see very quickly if McKenna has learned the lessons from the Leeds game because Leicester are even more ruthless than Leeds at exploiting gaps left when teams lose the ball against them. [Post edited 24 Dec 2023 16:17]
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:10 - Dec 24 with 2052 views | ITFCSG |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:02 - Dec 24 by BlueOura |
I think we do yes. We certainly need to be a lot less naive defensivley than we were yesterday. They nearly got in within the 1st 30 seconds yesterday but for a marginal offside and that kind of set the tone.
I would have liked us to have been a lot more cautious in the first 20 mins and kept a really tight defensive structure, before growing into the game.
We played like this against Leipzig in pre-season and I thought that was an exercise to prepare for games like Leeds away, but for me we were way too open from the word go.
I think we will see very quickly if McKenna has learned the lessons from the Leeds game because Leicester are even more ruthless than Leeds at exploiting gaps left when teams lose the ball against them. [Post edited 24 Dec 2023 16:17]
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Usually we are not so open away I was actually surprised we played such an open game yesterday! Davis was at least 10 yards higher up the pitch than normal not sure what the tactic was! | | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:34 - Dec 24 with 2011 views | tractorboy1978 |
Not a plan B as such but perhaps a more toned down plan A. There is no way we are going to (or should) sit in for a draw with 10 behind the ball but there is a bit of middle ground.
I guess it is hard to legislate for giving away a sloppy set piece goal but it was always going to be a difficult ask to go toe to toe with them in the manner we have other teams this season. They are a team packed full of technical quality but also pace/power and Premier League physicality. They are so devastating on transition.
The teams that pick up points against Leeds this season (with the exception of Leicester/Southampton maybe) are going to do it by either being lucky or sitting in and being hard to break down. Yesterday reminded me a bit of teams last season that came to PR and tried to take us on and just got brushed aside because we had far better players than them.
We now play Leicester twice in the space of 3 weeks. It'll be interesting to see how McKenna plays those two games. You don't want to be getting into a basketball game with them. | | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:51 - Dec 24 with 1964 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:54 - Dec 24 by Guthrum |
The problem being that if you have carefully constructed and drilled a squad to play in a certain style - which has brought great success - with numbers limited by the League, it is simply not possible to cover every eventuality. Bringing in defensively skilled players means sacrificing attacking ones on a long term basis.
It's not worth changing the whole setup for the half-dozen games a season against teams who can both run a watertight block and score good goals on the break. When what we are already doing works 70% of the time. |
If we can’t adapt to two scenarios in the Championship, what hope honestly do we have if we were to go up? If we played our a-game, which is commendable, with broadly these players in the Premier League, we’d lose by a lot more than 4 a game. Ideally we need to get used to adapting to games now, it’s the nature of football, and if we can’t evolve our game each match within reason during the second half of this season we may come unstuck, especially as the league now knows how we play. We need to be able to adapt better. |  | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 12:37 - Dec 24 with 1910 views | Guthrum |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:51 - Dec 24 by ChampionsofInnsbruck |
If we can’t adapt to two scenarios in the Championship, what hope honestly do we have if we were to go up? If we played our a-game, which is commendable, with broadly these players in the Premier League, we’d lose by a lot more than 4 a game. Ideally we need to get used to adapting to games now, it’s the nature of football, and if we can’t evolve our game each match within reason during the second half of this season we may come unstuck, especially as the league now knows how we play. We need to be able to adapt better. |
The division knew how we played back in August. If they didn't, the coaches and analysts weren't doing their jobs. This "being found out" is nonsense, isn't like our winning is based on a single magic trick, which no longer works once you know how it's done.
Very few have been able to completely stop us doing it. Really only two: Leeds and West Brom, both away games.
We'll have to do better if promoted, probably with some improved personnel. However, converting to a desperate megablock unit will not only require tremendous player change, but by no means guarantees survival. You just get no goals or wins before relegation. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 12:47 - Dec 24 with 1878 views | Radlett_blue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 11:51 - Dec 24 by ChampionsofInnsbruck |
If we can’t adapt to two scenarios in the Championship, what hope honestly do we have if we were to go up? If we played our a-game, which is commendable, with broadly these players in the Premier League, we’d lose by a lot more than 4 a game. Ideally we need to get used to adapting to games now, it’s the nature of football, and if we can’t evolve our game each match within reason during the second half of this season we may come unstuck, especially as the league now knows how we play. We need to be able to adapt better. |
If we do get promoted, we will need to sign 5 or 6 players who are better than what we have right now. But we've just been promoted from League 1 so let's worry about that at the end of this season, eh? |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:04 - Dec 24 with 1824 views | jayessess |
I wonder what "less cavalier" looks like in practice? Both Leeds and West Brom scored early from corners, which you concede more of when you defend deeper. It wasn't that we went at Leeds hell for leather and got caught on the counter at 0-0.
Once we're in that situation, you could say, well, these are much better than us, let's keep it tight and hope we can nick an equaliser on the break as they push for a second and then maybe take more risks if we're still in it in the last 20 minutes or so. But that isn't without it's drawbacks, you're giving them space to manage the game and dominate possession, you're also nullifying your own normal patterns of attacking play.
At Watford we've attempted to impose our own game in that scenario and forced our way back to parity relatively quickly. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:19 - Dec 24 with 1774 views | BondiBlue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:04 - Dec 24 by jayessess |
I wonder what "less cavalier" looks like in practice? Both Leeds and West Brom scored early from corners, which you concede more of when you defend deeper. It wasn't that we went at Leeds hell for leather and got caught on the counter at 0-0.
Once we're in that situation, you could say, well, these are much better than us, let's keep it tight and hope we can nick an equaliser on the break as they push for a second and then maybe take more risks if we're still in it in the last 20 minutes or so. But that isn't without it's drawbacks, you're giving them space to manage the game and dominate possession, you're also nullifying your own normal patterns of attacking play.
At Watford we've attempted to impose our own game in that scenario and forced our way back to parity relatively quickly. |
Less cavalier turns into mccarthy-ball pretty quickly. No thanks. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:19 - Dec 24 with 1759 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:04 - Dec 24 by jayessess |
I wonder what "less cavalier" looks like in practice? Both Leeds and West Brom scored early from corners, which you concede more of when you defend deeper. It wasn't that we went at Leeds hell for leather and got caught on the counter at 0-0.
Once we're in that situation, you could say, well, these are much better than us, let's keep it tight and hope we can nick an equaliser on the break as they push for a second and then maybe take more risks if we're still in it in the last 20 minutes or so. But that isn't without it's drawbacks, you're giving them space to manage the game and dominate possession, you're also nullifying your own normal patterns of attacking play.
At Watford we've attempted to impose our own game in that scenario and forced our way back to parity relatively quickly. |
We had got done on the counter at 0-0. Thankfully however their player held the ball for about 2 seconds longer than needed otherwise it probably would have been 0-1 inside the first few minutes. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:22 - Dec 24 with 1741 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:19 - Dec 24 by BondiBlue |
Less cavalier turns into mccarthy-ball pretty quickly. No thanks. |
No it doesn't. We've done it many times already this season.
Are people genuinely forgetting how we were winning away games 0-1 , and had less than 50% possession in these games.
We didn't park the bus in these either. Just more cautious imo. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:24 - Dec 24 with 1738 views | Radlett_blue |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:04 - Dec 24 by jayessess |
I wonder what "less cavalier" looks like in practice? Both Leeds and West Brom scored early from corners, which you concede more of when you defend deeper. It wasn't that we went at Leeds hell for leather and got caught on the counter at 0-0.
Once we're in that situation, you could say, well, these are much better than us, let's keep it tight and hope we can nick an equaliser on the break as they push for a second and then maybe take more risks if we're still in it in the last 20 minutes or so. But that isn't without it's drawbacks, you're giving them space to manage the game and dominate possession, you're also nullifying your own normal patterns of attacking play.
At Watford we've attempted to impose our own game in that scenario and forced our way back to parity relatively quickly. |
Agreed, although Watford don't have nearly the same quality of players as Leeds.
West Brom I doubt have particularly better players than us - they just overpowered us on the night. I'll be interested if McKenna makes some subtle changes to Town's tactics for the Leicester game. | |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:32 - Dec 24 with 1702 views | WeWereZombies |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 08:51 - Dec 24 by cressi |
I think in odd games the full back almost need to be full backs not so high up the pitch leaving so much space behind.
And other times I'm not against if required having 2 up front certainly if chasing a goal with twenty minutes to go.
But the last Yr has been fantastic
Although if we lose tomorrow one point from nine and transfer window required. |
If we lose tomorrow I think the Club need to have a serious word with whoever arranges last minute fixtures at the EFL...
More seriously, I think we just have to accept that the Leeds side yesterday were physically quicker, thought more quickly and were generally stronger than each of our players, without exception. Whatever problems and relegation hangovers they suffered from at the start of the season have been corrected and we have a fight on our hands to preserve that seven point gap. The same is probably true for Southampton.
So we will need slightly radical surgery in the January transfer window if we are to stand a good chance of automatic promotion and then to be Premier League ready. This autumn has been a wonderful time to be a Town supporter but I think things are about to get a lot more serious. But still very interesting. |  |
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| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:35 - Dec 24 with 1689 views | Jimmy86 |
It reminds me of the Joe Royle days, you score 3, we'll score 4... It's very entertaining but you have to say it's not brilliant from a defensive point of view... We've definitely attacked the championship, as we were promised we would, but for me, I'd like to see us tighten up a bit at the back a little. | | | |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:36 - Dec 24 with 1685 views | jayessess |
| Is a Plan B needed for teams like Leeds? on 13:19 - Dec 24 by FrimleyBlue |
We had got done on the counter at 0-0. Thankfully however their player held the ball for about 2 seconds longer than needed otherwise it probably would have been 0-1 inside the first few minutes. |
I don't think one passage of play tells you how we would've ultimately played if it had stayed 0-0 for longer. | |
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