| Let’s talk about the defence 10:15 - Nov 12 with 5132 views | GlasgowBlue |
But before we do, I’ll start by saying that although I’d have liked a crack at the play offs this year, I’d have be3n more than happy with mid table consolidation. We had spent four seasons in League One and to find ourselves joint top in November is beyond my wildest dreams.
Now back to the defence.
Hladky is top of the goal keeping charts on all metrics. He has been absolutely incredible. Yet we are conceding a lot of goals lately. Soft goals at that. Hladky has literally kept us in games all season. Some amazing point saving saves in every game.
This would suggest there is work to do with the defence.
Are we a little inexperienced at this level when it comes to our two central defenders? Woolfy and Burgess started this season so well, but there have been occasions when attackers have waltzed past the pair of them with ease. We saw this happen a few times last season. McKenna got very frustrated and dropped the pair of them for Fridge and Keogh.
I’d say that a fit Tuanzebe is the most experienced and best central defender we have by a country mile. Fridge also has Championship experience with Derby and has played in the pressure cooker of an old firm Derby. If Tuanzebe stays fit and Fridge can regain his firm of 2021 then they could emerge as the preferred pairing.
Or would KM consider going back to three at the back. Just to add that extra defensive cover? That could also solve the defensive frailties of Clarke and Davis, who look far better going forward than they do defending.
But that would mean taking out an attacking player. And attacking is our biggest strength. Do we dpsaxrifice scoring goals to avoid conceding goals?
I think this may well be a conversation McKenna will be having with his coaching staff over the international break.
Anyway. Not a moan. Just a topic of debate to open up.
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:23 - Nov 12 with 4258 views | Mach_foreignBlue |
The current system works out very well in terms of attacking. The crux of the problem is clear. It's a defence. Fully fit Tuanzebe could be a real asset for us and it might be worth trying what you have said. That is him and Edmundson as at the moment our defence is like a Swiss cheese.
Moreover, we badly need Williams to be back too. |  | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:33 - Nov 12 with 4214 views | MattinLondon |
Personally I think that Tuanzebe and Woolfy will emerge as the main centre half pairing with Davis and Williams as full-backs. |  | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:37 - Nov 12 with 4209 views | Guthrum |
I think it really is down to how we use our defenders.
The full-backs are actually attacking wide midfielders. Their defending is necessarily chasing back to overtake onrushing opposition players, not being in position to intercept or help out the centre-backs. Essentially, we play with two at the back, not three or four.
The centre-backs are there to mop up opposition through balls and to provide a platform for attacks by occupying forwards and tiring them by passing around until there's an opening - or, more recently, launching the ball long to get in behind a press. They are there to defend, but that is almost secondary and positioning is well forward, often close to or beyond the half-way line. Which can leave them chasing back, same as the FBs.
So an opposition break which hasn't been stopped or slowed in midfield can find our backs rushing to get into position. We're pretty good at getting a shape in the area very quickly. Lots of attacks are forced back and/or around without the opportunity to cross. But particularly rapid wingers or a well-timed pass leaves us exposed, in a foul-or-get-done situation for whoever catches up.
Bringing the defence further back will really hamper what we do in attack, as that use of those players gives the overload in the oppsition half which allows us to retain/regain possession and make chances.
Scoring is more valuable, in my view, as it means the opposition knows they will have to score at least twice, if not three times, to stand a chance of beating Town. Our defence is slightly loose, but it's not disastrous. Thus we win far more often than not. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 10:38]
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:38 - Nov 12 with 4192 views | Herbivore |
I think if you analyse a lot of the goals we concede it's not often down to the CBs, with Swansea's second yesterday being a bit of an exception in that regard. And Tuanzebe and Edmundson have both been slightly at fault for recent goals themselves so I'm not sure they are the answer necessarily. The way we set up leaves us vulnerable to the counter at times and we do seem to concede a relatively high proportion of the chances sides create against us, our xGA is actually pretty low. Also think you're overstating Hladky keeping us in games, he's playing well and has made some very good saves at times but I don't think your characterisation is accurate. |  |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:53 - Nov 12 with 4128 views | SheffordBlue |
It's interesting if you look at how we sit on certain metrics compared to the rest of the league:
Open Play:
Shots conceded 4th. xGA 10th. Goals conceded 16th.
Set Pieces:
Shots conceded 12th. xGA 7th. Goals conceded 1st.
So from Open Play were not letting the opposition shoot much but when we do it's from chances that have a good chance of going in and they are going in.
From Set Pieces we're conceding more shots but from worse positions and we're generally keeping them out. |  |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:48 - Nov 12 with 3952 views | SomethingBlue |
I'm a little more hesitant than some of you on Tuanzebe, who has pedigree but is 25 and has played fewer than senior 100 games, rarely in a consistent run and a number of them not at centre-back. It's a push to call him more experienced than the others even if he did well that time at PSG. We will need him in January and if he pushes on from there, as he may well do, it's fantastic. But I'm in no rush to write him into the team ahead of Woolfie or Burgess just yet.
I also doubt we'd change shape/formation so fundamentally at a time when we are winning games – we are doing so well because of how things click in other areas of the pitch, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we are winning pretty much every week would be strange.
Some of the goals we are conceding have little to do with the defenders – yesterday Fulton might not score if Hirst is awake & watching him rather than the ball.
It certainly seems we'll need to concede fewer goals if we are to stay in the race for the top two – but not sure it needs anything drastic at this point, we don't want to offset the stuff we are fantastic at, it's just not worth it. We are level on points with the leaders and eight points clear of third because of how we do what we do. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 11:51]
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:58 - Nov 12 with 3864 views | backwaywhen |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:33 - Nov 12 by MattinLondon |
Personally I think that Tuanzebe and Woolfy will emerge as the main centre half pairing with Davis and Williams as full-backs. |
As good as that sounds , it may be quite short term Tuanzebe has been very much a sick note in the past has he not ! | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:59 - Nov 12 with 3867 views | cressi |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:48 - Nov 12 by SomethingBlue |
I'm a little more hesitant than some of you on Tuanzebe, who has pedigree but is 25 and has played fewer than senior 100 games, rarely in a consistent run and a number of them not at centre-back. It's a push to call him more experienced than the others even if he did well that time at PSG. We will need him in January and if he pushes on from there, as he may well do, it's fantastic. But I'm in no rush to write him into the team ahead of Woolfie or Burgess just yet.
I also doubt we'd change shape/formation so fundamentally at a time when we are winning games – we are doing so well because of how things click in other areas of the pitch, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we are winning pretty much every week would be strange.
Some of the goals we are conceding have little to do with the defenders – yesterday Fulton might not score if Hirst is awake & watching him rather than the ball.
It certainly seems we'll need to concede fewer goals if we are to stay in the race for the top two – but not sure it needs anything drastic at this point, we don't want to offset the stuff we are fantastic at, it's just not worth it. We are level on points with the leaders and eight points clear of third because of how we do what we do. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 11:51]
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Think or problem is full backs.
Clarke comes inside and often leaves the wide man on his own and we are exposed. Williams much better positional sense.
Davis defended better yesterday .
Centre half's think Tuanzebe will end up in one of the two positions yesterday wolf and Burgess both made a mistake Burgess got away with it Hladky saved him while wolfy never made a tackle and Lowe scored also where was Clarke out of position | | | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:02 - Nov 12 with 3845 views | olimar |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:48 - Nov 12 by SomethingBlue |
I'm a little more hesitant than some of you on Tuanzebe, who has pedigree but is 25 and has played fewer than senior 100 games, rarely in a consistent run and a number of them not at centre-back. It's a push to call him more experienced than the others even if he did well that time at PSG. We will need him in January and if he pushes on from there, as he may well do, it's fantastic. But I'm in no rush to write him into the team ahead of Woolfie or Burgess just yet.
I also doubt we'd change shape/formation so fundamentally at a time when we are winning games – we are doing so well because of how things click in other areas of the pitch, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we are winning pretty much every week would be strange.
Some of the goals we are conceding have little to do with the defenders – yesterday Fulton might not score if Hirst is awake & watching him rather than the ball.
It certainly seems we'll need to concede fewer goals if we are to stay in the race for the top two – but not sure it needs anything drastic at this point, we don't want to offset the stuff we are fantastic at, it's just not worth it. We are level on points with the leaders and eight points clear of third because of how we do what we do. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 11:51]
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Was going to say the same thing re: Tuanzebe. He has more experience relative to the others at a high level, but he isnt actually that experienced as a player generally. There is a point where a mass of lower league experience probably counter acts a small amount of experience at a high level.
And there is a reason that he isnt at that higher level too. I think the general concensus is that, with time, his background suggests he will be better than the others (dont disagree with that), but Im not sure we should rush into getting him going asap because its inevitable. Just let it take it course- as you say, he will inevitably play more games between now and xmas and if he shows he should keep his place by that point on merit, then perfect. I dont think we should try and force it, in the expectation it will fix our defensive issues.
The games are exciting, we are winning them and there is a bit more jeopardy to them than we would all like, but on the whole we probably just need to enjoy the ride and see where it takes us. To the OP point, keep expectations relatively low- if we end up 8th this season, we will be perfectly placed to go further next season and will llikely have attracted some excellent additions in January/Summer too. | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:31 - Nov 12 with 3712 views | MK1 |
Can't defend for toffee. I am happy with the we will score more than you approach. Let's play.....
Hladky
Harness
Jackson
Hutchinson
Burns
Taylor
Chaplin
Hirst
Broadhead
Ladapo
Scarlett
Let's go all in. There is no way that WBA will be expecting that.
Or, just carry on as we are. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. |  | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:37 - Nov 12 with 3689 views | Herbivore |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:02 - Nov 12 by olimar |
Was going to say the same thing re: Tuanzebe. He has more experience relative to the others at a high level, but he isnt actually that experienced as a player generally. There is a point where a mass of lower league experience probably counter acts a small amount of experience at a high level.
And there is a reason that he isnt at that higher level too. I think the general concensus is that, with time, his background suggests he will be better than the others (dont disagree with that), but Im not sure we should rush into getting him going asap because its inevitable. Just let it take it course- as you say, he will inevitably play more games between now and xmas and if he shows he should keep his place by that point on merit, then perfect. I dont think we should try and force it, in the expectation it will fix our defensive issues.
The games are exciting, we are winning them and there is a bit more jeopardy to them than we would all like, but on the whole we probably just need to enjoy the ride and see where it takes us. To the OP point, keep expectations relatively low- if we end up 8th this season, we will be perfectly placed to go further next season and will llikely have attracted some excellent additions in January/Summer too. |
Agree with that except the finishing 8th bit. If we finish 8th we'll have only picked up around 30 or so points from our remaining 30 games and that kind of prolonged poor form won't give us a great springboard for the summer and next season. I don't expect us to sustain the form we're in currently - although I wouldn't completely rule it out either based on what McKenna has achieved here to date - but I also don't foresee us collapsing to the extent we're picking up a point a game for the rest of the season. Play offs has to be the minimum expectation now, imo, purely because our first 16 games have been so strong that it would take a monumental collapse for us to miss out on the top 6. We will likely only need another 36 points from our remaining 30 games, the same number of points we took from our opening 15 games. | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:43 - Nov 12 with 3665 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:37 - Nov 12 by Guthrum |
I think it really is down to how we use our defenders.
The full-backs are actually attacking wide midfielders. Their defending is necessarily chasing back to overtake onrushing opposition players, not being in position to intercept or help out the centre-backs. Essentially, we play with two at the back, not three or four.
The centre-backs are there to mop up opposition through balls and to provide a platform for attacks by occupying forwards and tiring them by passing around until there's an opening - or, more recently, launching the ball long to get in behind a press. They are there to defend, but that is almost secondary and positioning is well forward, often close to or beyond the half-way line. Which can leave them chasing back, same as the FBs.
So an opposition break which hasn't been stopped or slowed in midfield can find our backs rushing to get into position. We're pretty good at getting a shape in the area very quickly. Lots of attacks are forced back and/or around without the opportunity to cross. But particularly rapid wingers or a well-timed pass leaves us exposed, in a foul-or-get-done situation for whoever catches up.
Bringing the defence further back will really hamper what we do in attack, as that use of those players gives the overload in the oppsition half which allows us to retain/regain possession and make chances.
Scoring is more valuable, in my view, as it means the opposition knows they will have to score at least twice, if not three times, to stand a chance of beating Town. Our defence is slightly loose, but it's not disastrous. Thus we win far more often than not. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 10:38]
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It is like Joe Royle's teams but currently more effective.
We have been able to see out some 1-0 wins comfortably but then we have had 3 occasions where we haven't been comfortable (but successful) to seeing a game out against 10 men. |  |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:54 - Nov 12 with 3610 views | olimar |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:37 - Nov 12 by Herbivore |
Agree with that except the finishing 8th bit. If we finish 8th we'll have only picked up around 30 or so points from our remaining 30 games and that kind of prolonged poor form won't give us a great springboard for the summer and next season. I don't expect us to sustain the form we're in currently - although I wouldn't completely rule it out either based on what McKenna has achieved here to date - but I also don't foresee us collapsing to the extent we're picking up a point a game for the rest of the season. Play offs has to be the minimum expectation now, imo, purely because our first 16 games have been so strong that it would take a monumental collapse for us to miss out on the top 6. We will likely only need another 36 points from our remaining 30 games, the same number of points we took from our opening 15 games. |
Yeah that is a good point, I was overlooking just how far clear we are right now. You are right, if we collapse to that extent it maybe wouldnt bring quite the level of positivity.
I think we will end up in the play-offs, quite comfortably, then not quite make it. Which is ok (I wont feel like that at the time!). | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 13:03 - Nov 12 with 3559 views | Herbivore |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:54 - Nov 12 by olimar |
Yeah that is a good point, I was overlooking just how far clear we are right now. You are right, if we collapse to that extent it maybe wouldnt bring quite the level of positivity.
I think we will end up in the play-offs, quite comfortably, then not quite make it. Which is ok (I wont feel like that at the time!). |
I have no idea what to expect over the rest of the season to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if we won the league, I wouldn't be surprised if it pans out how you suggest either. We're playing really well but still with room for improvement and you know that McKenna will be wanting to see us get better and better as the season goes on. December and January are crucial as we've got some big games and tough fixtures in that run, if we come through those well then anything is possible. This start has just been ridiculous really. Maintaining more or less 2.5 points per game over 16 games doesn't happen often. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 13:06]
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 13:05 - Nov 12 with 3512 views | positivity |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:33 - Nov 12 by MattinLondon |
Personally I think that Tuanzebe and Woolfy will emerge as the main centre half pairing with Davis and Williams as full-backs. |
agreed, assuming that tuanzebe can stay fit, but i think there will still be games when burgess is brought in against the more physical teams | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:39 - Nov 12 with 3274 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 10:38 - Nov 12 by Herbivore |
I think if you analyse a lot of the goals we concede it's not often down to the CBs, with Swansea's second yesterday being a bit of an exception in that regard. And Tuanzebe and Edmundson have both been slightly at fault for recent goals themselves so I'm not sure they are the answer necessarily. The way we set up leaves us vulnerable to the counter at times and we do seem to concede a relatively high proportion of the chances sides create against us, our xGA is actually pretty low. Also think you're overstating Hladky keeping us in games, he's playing well and has made some very good saves at times but I don't think your characterisation is accurate. |
I don't think there is any debate that a fit Tuanzebe walks into our defence. He's got Premier League and Champions League experience, as well as being part of the Aston Villa team that was promoted from the Championship a few years ago.
Sentiment aside, he's an upgrade on Woolfenden. Just as Clarke was an upgrade on Janoi and Williams was an upgrade on Clarke.
I think we can forgive him any part he played in conceding the goal against Rotherham in the first five minutes of his first league start in several months.
To believe he's not the answer because of that goal seems very odd when stacked against his vast experience and pedigree.
The counter attacks are not an issue for me. As you state, it's understandable due to the way we set up. It's the being bullied by pace and physical forwards that is more a problem for me. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 15:53]
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:40 - Nov 12 with 3269 views | pointofblue |
I think Williams and Burns coming back will strengthen us to a degree. Felt a bit for Woolfenden yesterday; watching a replay, he had a similar defensive situation with Lowe in the 78th minute. Morsy supported him, and they handled it well. Would still blame Clarke as much as, if not more than, Woolfenden for the second goal.
Watching back we didn't really concede many chances other than the two goals and, other than those aforementioned goals, we marshalled Lowe - their only real threat - very well. | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:47 - Nov 12 with 3249 views | blueislander |
The fact that we have only conceded 6 goals in 8 matches away from Portman Road May suggest that there is not much wrong with our defence. | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:49 - Nov 12 with 3241 views | USA |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 12:31 - Nov 12 by MK1 |
Can't defend for toffee. I am happy with the we will score more than you approach. Let's play.....
Hladky
Harness
Jackson
Hutchinson
Burns
Taylor
Chaplin
Hirst
Broadhead
Ladapo
Scarlett
Let's go all in. There is no way that WBA will be expecting that.
Or, just carry on as we are. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. |
I wonder what would happen if we did do that! | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:55 - Nov 12 with 3207 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:49 - Nov 12 by USA |
I wonder what would happen if we did do that! |
We should play that team on the last day of the season as we will already been promoted by then. | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:59 - Nov 12 with 3179 views | Herbivore |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:39 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think there is any debate that a fit Tuanzebe walks into our defence. He's got Premier League and Champions League experience, as well as being part of the Aston Villa team that was promoted from the Championship a few years ago.
Sentiment aside, he's an upgrade on Woolfenden. Just as Clarke was an upgrade on Janoi and Williams was an upgrade on Clarke.
I think we can forgive him any part he played in conceding the goal against Rotherham in the first five minutes of his first league start in several months.
To believe he's not the answer because of that goal seems very odd when stacked against his vast experience and pedigree.
The counter attacks are not an issue for me. As you state, it's understandable due to the way we set up. It's the being bullied by pace and physical forwards that is more a problem for me. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 15:53]
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Tuanzebe has barely played any football in recent seasons so whether he is going to look a Prem player or not is up in the air still. Woolf has been excellent so if we're going to try and integrate Tuanzebe as a starter I'd rather it's for Burgess as he is the weaker of the two CBs for me, albeit he's had a good start to the season. Woolf and Tuanzebe, if they play to their potential, could be a starting partnership in the Prem whereas I feel the Championship is probably Burgess' ceiling.
Not sure I recognise your description of our defence getting bullied by pace and physical forwards. Which games are you referring to? Generally we have defended pretty well but we leave ourselves open and most the goals we concede are on the break, there have also been a few down to individual errors but mostly it's more us being open and getting caught out or occasionally not dealing with balls into the box as well as we could as happened yesterday, at Rotherham, and against Preston. | |
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 16:06 - Nov 12 with 3134 views | Muncher |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 11:48 - Nov 12 by SomethingBlue |
I'm a little more hesitant than some of you on Tuanzebe, who has pedigree but is 25 and has played fewer than senior 100 games, rarely in a consistent run and a number of them not at centre-back. It's a push to call him more experienced than the others even if he did well that time at PSG. We will need him in January and if he pushes on from there, as he may well do, it's fantastic. But I'm in no rush to write him into the team ahead of Woolfie or Burgess just yet.
I also doubt we'd change shape/formation so fundamentally at a time when we are winning games – we are doing so well because of how things click in other areas of the pitch, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater when we are winning pretty much every week would be strange.
Some of the goals we are conceding have little to do with the defenders – yesterday Fulton might not score if Hirst is awake & watching him rather than the ball.
It certainly seems we'll need to concede fewer goals if we are to stay in the race for the top two – but not sure it needs anything drastic at this point, we don't want to offset the stuff we are fantastic at, it's just not worth it. We are level on points with the leaders and eight points clear of third because of how we do what we do. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 11:51]
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Why do we need fewer goals to stay in the top two when our approach to date has put us 8 points clear of third?
Yes, some chances could have been avoided but it's a tradeoff of the way we are set up. | | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 17:25 - Nov 12 with 2987 views | SomethingBlue |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 15:39 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't think there is any debate that a fit Tuanzebe walks into our defence. He's got Premier League and Champions League experience, as well as being part of the Aston Villa team that was promoted from the Championship a few years ago.
Sentiment aside, he's an upgrade on Woolfenden. Just as Clarke was an upgrade on Janoi and Williams was an upgrade on Clarke.
I think we can forgive him any part he played in conceding the goal against Rotherham in the first five minutes of his first league start in several months.
To believe he's not the answer because of that goal seems very odd when stacked against his vast experience and pedigree.
The counter attacks are not an issue for me. As you state, it's understandable due to the way we set up. It's the being bullied by pace and physical forwards that is more a problem for me. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 15:53]
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I really see no evidence at this point that he's an upgrade on Woolfenden, who is playing out of his skin, or that he walks in anywhere! Michael Clegg had Premier League and Champions League experience too. Think we need to see Tuanzebe play some actual football first, which hasn't been a theme in his career. He doesn't have vast experience, assuming we're talking about the same player here? Hopefully we are the club where he gets on track and shows he's a top-quality operator – it'd be tremendous for us and I think he can do it – but there's no logic whatsoever for wishing him into the place of one of our best and most consistent players as things stand.
(Also worth noting that 23 of his 93 senior apps haven't been at CB – I'm really not dumping on the guy as he's clearly very good if we get him going but in my view there's quite a long way to go)
[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 17:39]
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| Let’s talk about the defence on 18:14 - Nov 12 with 2814 views | DarkBrandon |
I’ll throw this out there:
Sides that get promoted from the Championship that score a lot, but also concede plenty always seem to come back down. They stop scoring, but don’t stop conceding.
I think the problem isn’t necessarily the centre halves. I don’t think the defending from the front was good enough towards the end of the match, nor was the protection in front of the defence. Then Woolfy gets dragged out, beaten easily and Clarke isn’t covering.
Easy to blame Woolf, but I think there’s a lot of others who contributed. “Two goals up, against ten men. I’m going to try and score now” |  | | |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 18:20 - Nov 12 with 2768 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Let’s talk about the defence on 18:14 - Nov 12 by DarkBrandon |
I’ll throw this out there:
Sides that get promoted from the Championship that score a lot, but also concede plenty always seem to come back down. They stop scoring, but don’t stop conceding.
I think the problem isn’t necessarily the centre halves. I don’t think the defending from the front was good enough towards the end of the match, nor was the protection in front of the defence. Then Woolfy gets dragged out, beaten easily and Clarke isn’t covering.
Easy to blame Woolf, but I think there’s a lot of others who contributed. “Two goals up, against ten men. I’m going to try and score now” |
Excellent. Do you have any data to back up that assertion?
I reckon, at a guess, there are a lot of outliers in teams like Leeds, Wolves, Newcastle, Leicester and Bournemouth. Possibly more outliers than teams that support your "fact"!
Of course, it might also depend on how you define "conceding plenty" considering our defence is better than many in the Championship right now. | |
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