| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:14 - Aug 31 with 2642 views | BlueBadger |
Tory MP's - the should teach proper British history
Also Tory MP's - not that history though |  |
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| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:16 - Aug 31 with 2629 views | Herbivore |
In the words of MM, that went well. |  |
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| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:18 - Aug 31 with 2624 views | thatbdude |
| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:14 - Aug 31 by BlueBadger |
Tory MP's - the should teach proper British history
Also Tory MP's - not that history though |
It's only "proper" history if it's biased towards them |  |
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| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:31 - Aug 31 with 2593 views | JohnTy |
| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:14 - Aug 31 by BlueBadger |
Tory MP's - the should teach proper British history
Also Tory MP's - not that history though |
She is actually a Lib Dem. |  | | |
| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:33 - Aug 31 with 2576 views | Blueschev |
| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:14 - Aug 31 by BlueBadger |
Tory MP's - the should teach proper British history
Also Tory MP's - not that history though |
What these woke, Marxist lecturers don't tell you is the many positives of so called slavery. Just as the British Empire was a beacon of enlightenment on the world that should be celebrated, slavery instilled a work ethic that was invaluable. Why's that not being taught in schools? It's because they hate our country that's why. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:34 - Aug 31 with 2563 views | Kievthegreat |
| Apparently this Tory MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:31 - Aug 31 by JohnTy |
She is actually a Lib Dem. |
My bad, she was one of the 2019 Tory runaways. Changed the OP [Post edited 31 Aug 2023 9:34]
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:41 - Aug 31 with 2488 views | Kievthegreat |
A little snippet from the academic in question:
"Sandbach Tinne's enslaved Africans were worked to death on their plantations and accounted for in the financial accounts amongst livestock and when they died, their perceived asset value was written off under the "negro account" | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:47 - Aug 31 with 2466 views | BlueBadger |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:34 - Aug 31 by Kievthegreat |
My bad, she was one of the 2019 Tory runaways. Changed the OP [Post edited 31 Aug 2023 9:34]
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Voting record suggests that the Lib Dems are definitely a flag of convenience, though. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 09:50 - Aug 31 with 2458 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
That marble plaque with their smug faces on really wound me up. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 with 2427 views | redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:07 - Aug 31 with 2410 views | BlueRaider |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. |
This is bang on, plus there is little point in her family making any sort of payment in recompense as it will be derided as insignificant just like what happened with the Gladstones and Trevelyans. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:17 - Aug 31 with 2382 views | gtsb1966 |
She has a point though as do many others who have a families linked to the slave trade. Naming people just causes animosity. They can't help what happened in the 18th and 19th centuries however abhorrent. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:19 - Aug 31 with 2380 views | baxterbasics |
So what?
I bet if I knew my family history well enough I would find some of my ancestors did bad things in the world.
Not much I can do about it now is there? |  |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:22 - Aug 31 with 2366 views | MattinLondon |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. |
I agree that there is little point or logic in punishing descendants of former slave owners. But I do still think that the legacy of slavery still exists in terms of attitudes towards Africa - no real idea on how to rectify this.
And I do think that history should be taught as a matter of fact in the sense that a lot of wealthy families owe their status and wealth to slavery. They might well not like it but it should be taught as such. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:23 - Aug 31 with 2365 views | Kievthegreat |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. |
She is clearly ignorant of the Streisand effect. This wouldn't be big news except for the fact she tried to bully an Academic and University into censoring themselves. The real story is that she's tried to be a bully, but isn't getting her way and she's getting her comeuppance. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:34 - Aug 31 with 2339 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:19 - Aug 31 by baxterbasics |
So what?
I bet if I knew my family history well enough I would find some of my ancestors did bad things in the world.
Not much I can do about it now is there? |
It's a bit different though in this instance. If your great, great granddad was a bit of a wrong un then it doesn't really impact on you (or anyone else) today. If your great, great granddad was a slave owner then he likely owned tremendous wealth, wealth that through inheritance would have benefited his family greatly, quite likely including living ancestors. We know that social mobility is more or less dead in the UK so those who are from money are likely to find if they trace their history that at some point that wealth came from ill means, including slavery. If I trace my ancestors (which my parents have done) there is no great money to be found, just regular working people who didn't own slaves.
On the flip side of the beneficiaries, you also have the long term impacts of slavery on descendants of slaves. That's harder to quantify because much of the harm comes from intergenerational poverty and discrimination, not to mention the ongoing impacts of colonialism on Africa, but the fact that people owned slaves in the past is not a non-issue for those individuals and warrants rather more than a flippant 'So what?'. [Post edited 31 Aug 2023 11:14]
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:47 - Aug 31 with 2292 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
While trying to censor it was wrong, the question is was she targeted because of her politics? I don't think she should be punished for the acts of ancestors. No one should be. We were taught as children that just because Germany had done bad things in the war, it did not mean Germans were evil by proxy, just because their parents/grandparents had been involved with it, doesn't make their children responsible. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:49 - Aug 31 with 2286 views | soupytwist |
There are some suggestions about what might be good ways of making up for the actions of the relatively recent past (which still impact people today) here - https://www.heirsofslavery.org/
Also, a decent discussion about what it's like to confront that history can be heard on the episode of the Empire podcast with Alex Renton. Well worth a listen. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:11 - Aug 31 with 2240 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. |
The point is that a huge estate of land and other wealth was built up by the family, paid for by abducted people being worked to death thousands of miles from their country of birth.
And that she continues to profit from that estate.
Now, if you are right that she shouldn't be punished for her ancestors' actions, doesn't it also follow that she shouldn't benefit from them, either?
Returning the wealth to the descendents of those who worked for it isn't punishment, is it?
She has benefited from it her entire life, but doesn't deserve it and certainly didn't earn that wealth.
Her ancestors also benefited from it during their lifetimes, but didn't deserve to be rewarded for kidnapping, abuse, exploitation, enslavement, punishment beatings, forced starving and deaths of unpaid workers, and certainly weren't the ones who earned that wealth.
See also the Highland Clearances and the Enclosure Acts. White Working Class Britain's should be working with the global reparations movement to get their share of what was stolen from them, but instead have been gaslit into thinking that of wealth accumulated by slave exploitation is returned to the families of those who worked for it, that they are somehow losing out.
When, instead, we should be fighting for the restoration of common land and reparations from the families of those who exploited their ancestors. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:15 - Aug 31 with 2223 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:23 - Aug 31 by Kievthegreat |
She is clearly ignorant of the Streisand effect. This wouldn't be big news except for the fact she tried to bully an Academic and University into censoring themselves. The real story is that she's tried to be a bully, but isn't getting her way and she's getting her comeuppance. |
The academic merit of it all would presumably be unaffected by leaving out names of people alive today. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:16 - Aug 31 with 2215 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:34 - Aug 31 by Herbivore |
It's a bit different though in this instance. If your great, great granddad was a bit of a wrong un then it doesn't really impact on you (or anyone else) today. If your great, great granddad was a slave owner then he likely owned tremendous wealth, wealth that through inheritance would have benefited his family greatly, quite likely including living ancestors. We know that social mobility is more or less dead in the UK so those who are from money are likely to find if they trace their history that at some point that wealth came from ill means, including slavery. If I trace my ancestors (which my parents have done) there is no great money to be found, just regular working people who didn't own slaves.
On the flip side of the beneficiaries, you also have the long term impacts of slavery on descendants of slaves. That's harder to quantify because much of the harm comes from intergenerational poverty and discrimination, not to mention the ongoing impacts of colonialism on Africa, but the fact that people owned slaves in the past is not a non-issue for those individuals and warrants rather more than a flippant 'So what?'. [Post edited 31 Aug 2023 11:14]
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There is the difficulty arising from the fact that your place in the world may have been enhanced through it. But almost impossible to draw a direct link to someone else's being reduced.
I dont know this MPs background. Is she landed gentry, or just a normal person?
Either way, putting the name out simply leads to abuse and probably threats in today's world. And adds nothing to the study.
Lets not forget what reparations can lead to either.
[Post edited 31 Aug 2023 11:17]
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:17 - Aug 31 with 2212 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:11 - Aug 31 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The point is that a huge estate of land and other wealth was built up by the family, paid for by abducted people being worked to death thousands of miles from their country of birth.
And that she continues to profit from that estate.
Now, if you are right that she shouldn't be punished for her ancestors' actions, doesn't it also follow that she shouldn't benefit from them, either?
Returning the wealth to the descendents of those who worked for it isn't punishment, is it?
She has benefited from it her entire life, but doesn't deserve it and certainly didn't earn that wealth.
Her ancestors also benefited from it during their lifetimes, but didn't deserve to be rewarded for kidnapping, abuse, exploitation, enslavement, punishment beatings, forced starving and deaths of unpaid workers, and certainly weren't the ones who earned that wealth.
See also the Highland Clearances and the Enclosure Acts. White Working Class Britain's should be working with the global reparations movement to get their share of what was stolen from them, but instead have been gaslit into thinking that of wealth accumulated by slave exploitation is returned to the families of those who worked for it, that they are somehow losing out.
When, instead, we should be fighting for the restoration of common land and reparations from the families of those who exploited their ancestors. |
Pretty much all wealth has been accumulated through various forms of exploitation, many of which are still ongoing (e.g. companies like Amazon paying so little that governments have to subsidise their employees whilst they make billions of pounds in profit). Some of the historic forms were much more barbaric, but society as a whole needs a massive reset. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:08 - Aug 31 with 2148 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 10:01 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Seems understandable, surely?
She had nothing to do with it. Punishing people for the sins of ancestors is a bit like original sin from the bible. Utterly unfair and ridiculous. But we know full well that certain people will latch onto this and abuse her for it etc. |
If her or her family members wish to pay the full reparations then perhaps we could begin to forgive and forget. Until then she and all those families whose wealth was achieved through the slavery, torture and humiliation of others should be reminded every day where their wealth came from |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:14 - Aug 31 with 2124 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:16 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
There is the difficulty arising from the fact that your place in the world may have been enhanced through it. But almost impossible to draw a direct link to someone else's being reduced.
I dont know this MPs background. Is she landed gentry, or just a normal person?
Either way, putting the name out simply leads to abuse and probably threats in today's world. And adds nothing to the study.
Lets not forget what reparations can lead to either.
[Post edited 31 Aug 2023 11:17]
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Her family still owns a large amount of land that was purchased by the ancestor in question, so yes she directly still benefits from the proceeds of slavery. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:16 - Aug 31 with 2098 views | Kievthegreat |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:16 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
There is the difficulty arising from the fact that your place in the world may have been enhanced through it. But almost impossible to draw a direct link to someone else's being reduced.
I dont know this MPs background. Is she landed gentry, or just a normal person?
Either way, putting the name out simply leads to abuse and probably threats in today's world. And adds nothing to the study.
Lets not forget what reparations can lead to either.
[Post edited 31 Aug 2023 11:17]
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"The merchant owned an estate in North Wales, which incorporated the stately home Hafodunos Hall.
Mr Al Nasir claimed in his research: "The estate of Samuel Sandbach was 5,000 acres, it incorporated not only Hafodunos Hall, sold off in the 1930s, but the surrounding farms, with cottages that now form part of Antoinette Sandbach's estates known as Hafodunos Farms Limited."
Asked by the BBC if any of this information was incorrect, Ms Sandbach said over half the estate was sold in the 30s and also pointed out that land owned by the family today had been added to and developed since the 1960s.
Today, cottages on surrounding lands are available to rent as holiday lets. They are advertised on Antoinette Sandbach's X, formerly Twitter, account and Companies House shows Antoinette Sherratt nee Sandbach is a director of the company known as Hafodunos Farms Limited."
And in the interest of balance, her response.
"The former MP told the BBC that Hafodunos Farms Limited was established by her father in the 1970s. It is unclear how he came into possession of the land and cottages."
I think being descended from a family with a 5,000 acre estate qualifies as landed gentry, even if they had to sell half of it and only have a couple of thousand acres. | | | |
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