| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist 14:13 - Mar 2 with 11404 views | giant_stow |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64824436
Assuming we're allowed to talk about this now the case has finished, finding her guilty seems harsh to me, let alone 3 years of prison. Partially sighted person gets cross at a cyclist on a pavement.... except no one seems to know if its a pavement or shared track. Isn;t the council ultimately at fault? |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:11 - Mar 9 with 902 views | Swansea_Blue |
Did the judge really say this?
“This was, I think, a shared path…”. I think? You’d have thought the first thing that the court established was whether it was a footpath, a bike path or a shared path. Or maybe that’s irrelevant to the specific charge? |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:23 - Mar 9 with 858 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:11 - Mar 9 by Swansea_Blue |
Did the judge really say this?
“This was, I think, a shared path…”. I think? You’d have thought the first thing that the court established was whether it was a footpath, a bike path or a shared path. Or maybe that’s irrelevant to the specific charge? |
Probably just a turn of phrase. There had been some confusion over the path's status and he's probably just saying "think" as he's remembering/looking at his notes. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:30 - Mar 9 with 855 views | DanTheMan |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:11 - Mar 9 by Swansea_Blue |
Did the judge really say this?
“This was, I think, a shared path…”. I think? You’d have thought the first thing that the court established was whether it was a footpath, a bike path or a shared path. Or maybe that’s irrelevant to the specific charge? |
To be fair, I think the sentences after that make things clearer regardless of the status of the path.
"The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide."
So used by cyclists and easily wide enough for her to step out of the way and have a grumble to herself if she really wanted. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:32 - Mar 9 with 854 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:11 - Mar 9 by Swansea_Blue |
Did the judge really say this?
“This was, I think, a shared path…”. I think? You’d have thought the first thing that the court established was whether it was a footpath, a bike path or a shared path. Or maybe that’s irrelevant to the specific charge? |
That's just one assertion that the judge makes which seems challengeable. A more important one is the causality the judge places on the pedestrian's arm actions and there being possible contact - looking at the video again, i just don't see that the arm actions caused the fall - in fact the cyclist seems to topple off *after* they've passed, so how can the judge be so sure? And why no consideration of the cyclist's responsibility to stay on on the bike (in the notes at least)? [Post edited 9 Mar 2023 9:36]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:36 - Mar 9 with 848 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:30 - Mar 9 by DanTheMan |
To be fair, I think the sentences after that make things clearer regardless of the status of the path.
"The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide."
So used by cyclists and easily wide enough for her to step out of the way and have a grumble to herself if she really wanted. |
If cars speed down a 3 lane 40mph limited road, because everyone does it, does that mean no one's speeding in law?
Re your last point, why has no one asked why the cyclist didn't swerve to the inside? If she had, no death. If the path was so wide and plentiful, that should have been an option. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:57 - Mar 9 with 815 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:30 - Mar 9 by DanTheMan |
To be fair, I think the sentences after that make things clearer regardless of the status of the path.
"The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide."
So used by cyclists and easily wide enough for her to step out of the way and have a grumble to herself if she really wanted. |
Exactly.
No, she chose to be aggressive when there was no need, and caused someone's death (not to mention traumatised the driver for life). I can't believe some people want to be lenient knowing those facts. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:59 - Mar 9 with 817 views | Whos_blue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:36 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
If cars speed down a 3 lane 40mph limited road, because everyone does it, does that mean no one's speeding in law?
Re your last point, why has no one asked why the cyclist didn't swerve to the inside? If she had, no death. If the path was so wide and plentiful, that should have been an option. |
Come on Ulla, don't really want to argue mate, but that last paragraph is bobbins.
The only person who can answer that is dead.
It really has no relevance what way someone swerved after being made to swerve. It's always got to be about what made them swerve in first place.
Seriously mate, please have a rethink on this one. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:00 - Mar 9 with 811 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:32 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
That's just one assertion that the judge makes which seems challengeable. A more important one is the causality the judge places on the pedestrian's arm actions and there being possible contact - looking at the video again, i just don't see that the arm actions caused the fall - in fact the cyclist seems to topple off *after* they've passed, so how can the judge be so sure? And why no consideration of the cyclist's responsibility to stay on on the bike (in the notes at least)? [Post edited 9 Mar 2023 9:36]
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The cyclist's responsibility to stay on the bike?! What are you talking about?! She was an elderly woman in her 70s, with some nutter remonstrating with her. A witness said there was possible contact, and certainly the arm waving caused the fall. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:04 - Mar 9 with 801 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:36 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
If cars speed down a 3 lane 40mph limited road, because everyone does it, does that mean no one's speeding in law?
Re your last point, why has no one asked why the cyclist didn't swerve to the inside? If she had, no death. If the path was so wide and plentiful, that should have been an option. |
Because when you're a woman in your 70s going for a peaceful cycle ride and some nutter suddenly starts being aggressive towards you, waving arms/shouting etc. you don't have time to calmly think "Oh I'll just swerve inside to that plentiful bit of space."
You're making absolutely no sense. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:18 - Mar 9 with 775 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:59 - Mar 9 by Whos_blue |
Come on Ulla, don't really want to argue mate, but that last paragraph is bobbins.
The only person who can answer that is dead.
It really has no relevance what way someone swerved after being made to swerve. It's always got to be about what made them swerve in first place.
Seriously mate, please have a rethink on this one. |
Hey we're not arguing and I appreciate you being as delicate as possible - we're just disagreeing politely. Tbh, it would have been great to quietly back down on reading Lagos's link and stop debating, but this just doesn't seem right to me.
The crux of it is I don't think the cyclist was made to swerve into the road by the pedestrian. For me, the causality isn't there - I certainly can't see a push on the video, the cyclist falls after they've passed (and therefore had agency), so I believe it to be a tragic accident. [Post edited 9 Mar 2023 10:19]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:36 - Mar 9 with 738 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:18 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
Hey we're not arguing and I appreciate you being as delicate as possible - we're just disagreeing politely. Tbh, it would have been great to quietly back down on reading Lagos's link and stop debating, but this just doesn't seem right to me.
The crux of it is I don't think the cyclist was made to swerve into the road by the pedestrian. For me, the causality isn't there - I certainly can't see a push on the video, the cyclist falls after they've passed (and therefore had agency), so I believe it to be a tragic accident. [Post edited 9 Mar 2023 10:19]
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The judge, the witness and my eyes tell me the pedestrian definitely caused it, there certainly may have been contact, and the cyclist falling a split second after the remonstrations/contact is neither here nor there.
I'm just totally baffled by your position. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:44 - Mar 10 with 655 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:00 - Mar 9 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The cyclist's responsibility to stay on the bike?! What are you talking about?! She was an elderly woman in her 70s, with some nutter remonstrating with her. A witness said there was possible contact, and certainly the arm waving caused the fall. |
(ok here it goes and sorry to anyone who's bored of this)
What I mean is that everyone has a responsibility to keep themselves safe, as well as to expect/hope that others will look out for them too. If the cyclist didn't have the wherewithal to stay on the bike when faced with an obstacle, perhaps she shouldn't have been on it. I can't think of a less offensive way of putting that and I'm sure it'll annoy some, but thats what I meant. Onto the next... | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:45 - Mar 10 with 653 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:04 - Mar 9 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Because when you're a woman in your 70s going for a peaceful cycle ride and some nutter suddenly starts being aggressive towards you, waving arms/shouting etc. you don't have time to calmly think "Oh I'll just swerve inside to that plentiful bit of space."
You're making absolutely no sense. |
I think I just covered this, so won;t repeat that post | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:53 - Mar 10 with 642 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 10:36 - Mar 9 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The judge, the witness and my eyes tell me the pedestrian definitely caused it, there certainly may have been contact, and the cyclist falling a split second after the remonstrations/contact is neither here nor there.
I'm just totally baffled by your position. |
I'm sorry I've baffled you - I can only assure you it's honestly held. And here's where I can't help but repeat other stuff from above (and why I didn't reply).... I think the various factors led to the tragic death: poor unmarked road layout, lack of cyclist ability and yes the angry / defensive reaction of the partially sighted pedestrian. I don;t know why the judge felt those other factors had no role to play in the death and disagree with him.
I don't think there's clear physical contact and am not sure why that witness's statement seems to trump the video in the judge's mind. Indeed if they had come to a stop as the witness says, it can't have been the moment of the possible contact as the cyclist was on the move again after passing the pedestrian and prior to falling off - there's no push in the video immediately prior to the fall..
I think I've discharged my duty to you know Dolly, so would say we're square and can agree to differ. apologies if everyone else has had enough of this thread. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:55 - Mar 10 with 634 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:44 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
(ok here it goes and sorry to anyone who's bored of this)
What I mean is that everyone has a responsibility to keep themselves safe, as well as to expect/hope that others will look out for them too. If the cyclist didn't have the wherewithal to stay on the bike when faced with an obstacle, perhaps she shouldn't have been on it. I can't think of a less offensive way of putting that and I'm sure it'll annoy some, but thats what I meant. Onto the next... |
A person waving their arm and shouting at you isn't an "obstacle"!
And it's a woman in her 70s cycling. I think most people would have a bit of a wobble in that situation, let alone a woman in her 70s.
You're going to extraordinary lengths to hold your position on this, now effectively blaming the cyclist for not staying on her bike! Unbelievable! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:58 - Mar 10 with 633 views | ronnyd |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:45 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
I think I just covered this, so won;t repeat that post |
Reading this morning that the council for the area still can't categorically state that the path is classed as dual use and they are having to reassess it's status. I did say at the time, when the cctv footage was first released, that the path seems far too narrow and also poorly surfaced to be safe to use as a bike and a pedestrian path. |  | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:03 - Mar 10 with 628 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:55 - Mar 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
A person waving their arm and shouting at you isn't an "obstacle"!
And it's a woman in her 70s cycling. I think most people would have a bit of a wobble in that situation, let alone a woman in her 70s.
You're going to extraordinary lengths to hold your position on this, now effectively blaming the cyclist for not staying on her bike! Unbelievable! |
I think the cyclist's riding ability was one of the factors in the death yes - this is partly why I wouldn't call it manslaughter. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:04 - Mar 10 with 621 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:53 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
I'm sorry I've baffled you - I can only assure you it's honestly held. And here's where I can't help but repeat other stuff from above (and why I didn't reply).... I think the various factors led to the tragic death: poor unmarked road layout, lack of cyclist ability and yes the angry / defensive reaction of the partially sighted pedestrian. I don;t know why the judge felt those other factors had no role to play in the death and disagree with him.
I don't think there's clear physical contact and am not sure why that witness's statement seems to trump the video in the judge's mind. Indeed if they had come to a stop as the witness says, it can't have been the moment of the possible contact as the cyclist was on the move again after passing the pedestrian and prior to falling off - there's no push in the video immediately prior to the fall..
I think I've discharged my duty to you know Dolly, so would say we're square and can agree to differ. apologies if everyone else has had enough of this thread. |
It's hard to see one way or the other if there was contact from the video, but it's clearly rather close, and really - does it matter? The pedestrian's arm waving causes the fall whether there was contact or not.
"it can't have been the moment of the possible contact as the cyclist was on the move again after passing the pedestrian and prior to falling off"
So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!
The more you dig the more ridiculous you sound.
Saying others might be bored is another attempt to swerve. You want this over with because of the above mentioned ridiculous hole you're digging! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:12 - Mar 10 with 586 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:04 - Mar 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's hard to see one way or the other if there was contact from the video, but it's clearly rather close, and really - does it matter? The pedestrian's arm waving causes the fall whether there was contact or not.
"it can't have been the moment of the possible contact as the cyclist was on the move again after passing the pedestrian and prior to falling off"
So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!
The more you dig the more ridiculous you sound.
Saying others might be bored is another attempt to swerve. You want this over with because of the above mentioned ridiculous hole you're digging! |
Of course it matters if there was contact or not!
"So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!"
Its possible granted, but that leaves your position as the push, which may or may not have happenned, may or may not have caused a wobble further down the road.... lots of mays and maybes - I thought convictions were meant to be based on proof and certainty?
And are you really saying that unless I answer every post of yours, I'm being disingenuous?! Are you winding me up now?! | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:23 - Mar 10 with 542 views | GlasgowBlue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:12 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Of course it matters if there was contact or not!
"So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!"
Its possible granted, but that leaves your position as the push, which may or may not have happenned, may or may not have caused a wobble further down the road.... lots of mays and maybes - I thought convictions were meant to be based on proof and certainty?
And are you really saying that unless I answer every post of yours, I'm being disingenuous?! Are you winding me up now?! |
I bet you regret coming back to this thread now.
You're locked in for the next ten pages. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:23 - Mar 10 with 542 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 13:58 - Mar 10 by ronnyd |
Reading this morning that the council for the area still can't categorically state that the path is classed as dual use and they are having to reassess it's status. I did say at the time, when the cctv footage was first released, that the path seems far too narrow and also poorly surfaced to be safe to use as a bike and a pedestrian path. |
The path was 2.4m (approx. 8ft) wide. That seems to me, to be plenty of space for a pedestrian and a slow moving cyclist to go past each other without incident. Proper markings, better surfacing would all be good, but you can say the same about pretty much every pavement in this rundown country. |  | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:27 - Mar 10 with 518 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:12 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Of course it matters if there was contact or not!
"So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!"
Its possible granted, but that leaves your position as the push, which may or may not have happenned, may or may not have caused a wobble further down the road.... lots of mays and maybes - I thought convictions were meant to be based on proof and certainty?
And are you really saying that unless I answer every post of yours, I'm being disingenuous?! Are you winding me up now?! |
2 Scenarios:
1) I punch you and knock you backwards into an oncoming car
2) I swing for you, but you dodge it and step/fall back into the path of an oncoming car.
Both involve a violent action from me towards you, that results in you getting hit by a car. Would you suggest that in scenario 2, I am less culpable? | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:28 - Mar 10 with 507 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:23 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
The path was 2.4m (approx. 8ft) wide. That seems to me, to be plenty of space for a pedestrian and a slow moving cyclist to go past each other without incident. Proper markings, better surfacing would all be good, but you can say the same about pretty much every pavement in this rundown country. |
Given the vast majority of pavements are for pedestrians only and shared paths are quite new, I don't know how any path could be considered shared without proper markings. Everyone needs to know where they stand (or cycle) | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:36 - Mar 10 with 477 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:27 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
2 Scenarios:
1) I punch you and knock you backwards into an oncoming car
2) I swing for you, but you dodge it and step/fall back into the path of an oncoming car.
Both involve a violent action from me towards you, that results in you getting hit by a car. Would you suggest that in scenario 2, I am less culpable? |
Yes you're right in your scenario - I would be culpable. But of course, in this case there was no swinging punch and no provable resultant stagger back into the road.
Here's one for you:
You're partially sighted, physically disabled so more delicate than others and have a possible learning disability. A cyclist comes at you on what you believe to be a pavement - do you have a right to be frightened and defensive? | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:36 - Mar 10 with 477 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:28 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Given the vast majority of pavements are for pedestrians only and shared paths are quite new, I don't know how any path could be considered shared without proper markings. Everyone needs to know where they stand (or cycle) |
The shared path is important when talking about making our roads/pavements safer for everyone and for lessons learnt, but it doesn't really affect the judgement.
"This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety."
It wouldn't matter even if technically the cyclist was in the wrong and shouldn't have been cycling there, the unacceptable reaction of the pedestrian towards the cyclist still lead to their death. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:37]
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