| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist 14:13 - Mar 2 with 11478 views | giant_stow |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64824436
Assuming we're allowed to talk about this now the case has finished, finding her guilty seems harsh to me, let alone 3 years of prison. Partially sighted person gets cross at a cyclist on a pavement.... except no one seems to know if its a pavement or shared track. Isn;t the council ultimately at fault? |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:40 - Mar 10 with 1589 views | Ryorry |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:28 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Given the vast majority of pavements are for pedestrians only and shared paths are quite new, I don't know how any path could be considered shared without proper markings. Everyone needs to know where they stand (or cycle) |
Proper markings *and* signage - whether the pedestrian defendant was made aware *before* the incident that the path was shared & therefore the cyclist wasn't doing anything illegal, would surely have a bearing on the case too?
Otherwise it could be argued that the pedestrian's reaction of waving her hands was pretty normal protest/fear/annoyance at someone who she thought was illicitly cycling on the pavement (sorry if this point was previously covered). |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:43 - Mar 10 with 1586 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:36 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Yes you're right in your scenario - I would be culpable. But of course, in this case there was no swinging punch and no provable resultant stagger back into the road.
Here's one for you:
You're partially sighted, physically disabled so more delicate than others and have a possible learning disability. A cyclist comes at you on what you believe to be a pavement - do you have a right to be frightened and defensive? |
"He(an eye witness) said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”.
"A starting point of four years seems just, based on my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused."
It may not be a punch, but she did swing at the cyclist and it was intentional.
A frightened and defensive act is step away from any potential harm and protect themselves. It is not to move towards someone and swing at them. That is an aggressive reaction and that is what the pedestrian exhibited. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:45]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:45 - Mar 10 with 1555 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:36 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
The shared path is important when talking about making our roads/pavements safer for everyone and for lessons learnt, but it doesn't really affect the judgement.
"This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety."
It wouldn't matter even if technically the cyclist was in the wrong and shouldn't have been cycling there, the unacceptable reaction of the pedestrian towards the cyclist still lead to their death. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:37]
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"The shared path is important when talking about making our roads/pavements safer for everyone and for lessons learnt, but it doesn't really affect the judgement."
This is a point about road planning policy, not this legal case, followed by an assertion.
"This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety."
How does the judge *know* its a shared path, when the council can't say for certain?
How does the judge *know* what the pedestrian knows and where's the allowance for the learning disability for that matter? More assertions made without proper basis leading to a conviction - so much for beyond all reasonable doubt.
"It wouldn't matter even if technically the cyclist was in the wrong and shouldn't have been cycling there, the unacceptable reaction of the pedestrian towards the cyclist still lead to their death."
This is another opinion which is based on the previous opinions which have been mistaken as fact. I question if her reaction was unacceptable given her conditions and also question whether her actions were the cause of death (with the road layout and cyclist ability being the other causes). | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:55 - Mar 10 with 1506 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:45 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
"The shared path is important when talking about making our roads/pavements safer for everyone and for lessons learnt, but it doesn't really affect the judgement."
This is a point about road planning policy, not this legal case, followed by an assertion.
"This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety."
How does the judge *know* its a shared path, when the council can't say for certain?
How does the judge *know* what the pedestrian knows and where's the allowance for the learning disability for that matter? More assertions made without proper basis leading to a conviction - so much for beyond all reasonable doubt.
"It wouldn't matter even if technically the cyclist was in the wrong and shouldn't have been cycling there, the unacceptable reaction of the pedestrian towards the cyclist still lead to their death."
This is another opinion which is based on the previous opinions which have been mistaken as fact. I question if her reaction was unacceptable given her conditions and also question whether her actions were the cause of death (with the road layout and cyclist ability being the other causes). |
The judge, the prosecution and jury of her peers all disagree. The instructions given to the jury can be found here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/630156362/Auriol-Grey-Directions-of-Law
In particular here are the tests the judge laid out to reach a guilty verdict for manslaughter:
1 - Was what took place or may it have been an accident? If so, your verdict is not guilty. Go no further.
If not, go to Q2.
2 - Did she believe, or may she have believed it was necessary to use force to defend herself?
If not, self-defence fails and you will go straight to Q4. If yes, go to Q3
3 - Was the force that she used reasonable or may it have been reasonable?
If yes, verdict not guilty. Go no further.
If no, self-defence fails. Go to Q4.
4 - Would a sane and reasonable person realise that doing what she did, would inevitably expose Mrs Ward to some harm?
If yes, verdict guilty. Go no further.
If no, verdict not guilty
They may be "opinions", but it is the opinion of the jury that she did not act in reasonable self defence and knew that her actions would place the pedestrian in harms way. This based off of far more evidence than you or I know, so would seem a far better place to glean this information. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:57]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:56 - Mar 10 with 1490 views | RamRob |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:43 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
"He(an eye witness) said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”.
"A starting point of four years seems just, based on my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused."
It may not be a punch, but she did swing at the cyclist and it was intentional.
A frightened and defensive act is step away from any potential harm and protect themselves. It is not to move towards someone and swing at them. That is an aggressive reaction and that is what the pedestrian exhibited. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:45]
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If the Eye witness account is accurate then the verdict/sentence is correct in my view, however when viewing the video it doesn't seem to match up with what the eye witness describes. I can't see that the cyclist has come to a halt
The angle from the camera doesn't clearly show how close the pedestrian is to the cyclist, I'd be interested to know what angle the eye witness had. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:00 - Mar 10 with 1451 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:56 - Mar 10 by RamRob |
If the Eye witness account is accurate then the verdict/sentence is correct in my view, however when viewing the video it doesn't seem to match up with what the eye witness describes. I can't see that the cyclist has come to a halt
The angle from the camera doesn't clearly show how close the pedestrian is to the cyclist, I'd be interested to know what angle the eye witness had. |
Precisely - the video and eye-witness do not match, yet the Judge goes out of his way to describe the witness as reliable. In fact, it appears this statement is *very* important in the guilty verdict, but visibly questionable. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:06 - Mar 10 with 1421 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:55 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
The judge, the prosecution and jury of her peers all disagree. The instructions given to the jury can be found here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/630156362/Auriol-Grey-Directions-of-Law
In particular here are the tests the judge laid out to reach a guilty verdict for manslaughter:
1 - Was what took place or may it have been an accident? If so, your verdict is not guilty. Go no further.
If not, go to Q2.
2 - Did she believe, or may she have believed it was necessary to use force to defend herself?
If not, self-defence fails and you will go straight to Q4. If yes, go to Q3
3 - Was the force that she used reasonable or may it have been reasonable?
If yes, verdict not guilty. Go no further.
If no, self-defence fails. Go to Q4.
4 - Would a sane and reasonable person realise that doing what she did, would inevitably expose Mrs Ward to some harm?
If yes, verdict guilty. Go no further.
If no, verdict not guilty
They may be "opinions", but it is the opinion of the jury that she did not act in reasonable self defence and knew that her actions would place the pedestrian in harms way. This based off of far more evidence than you or I know, so would seem a far better place to glean this information. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 14:57]
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I think we've reached stalemate, but as to the value of the opinions of the judge and jury, on one hand yes you're right. On the other, other judges and juries have been equally confident and later proved wrong. The judge appears to have made some pretty critical assumptions, so it's possible those assumptions were wrong and crucially so. Also, I believe this was the second attempt at a trial (I don't know why the first failed in fairness), but that would usually point to a tricky case. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:10 - Mar 10 with 1399 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:00 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Precisely - the video and eye-witness do not match, yet the Judge goes out of his way to describe the witness as reliable. In fact, it appears this statement is *very* important in the guilty verdict, but visibly questionable. |
That's BS. the moment any contact would have occurred is off screen.
If you watch the footage, you can see her gesticulating as she moves down and then as her top half is moving out of shot, she seem to be leaning to her left.
At the moment they are actually side by side, you cannot see the pedestrians arms or most of the top half of her body, so you can't tell at all that it doesn't line-up with that witness statement (there may have been multiple that saw it, rather than just one).
Also, "the Judge goes out of his way to describe the witness as reliable"? Is this some grand conspiracy to throw little old ladies in jail? [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 15:12]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:21 - Mar 10 with 1363 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:10 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
That's BS. the moment any contact would have occurred is off screen.
If you watch the footage, you can see her gesticulating as she moves down and then as her top half is moving out of shot, she seem to be leaning to her left.
At the moment they are actually side by side, you cannot see the pedestrians arms or most of the top half of her body, so you can't tell at all that it doesn't line-up with that witness statement (there may have been multiple that saw it, rather than just one).
Also, "the Judge goes out of his way to describe the witness as reliable"? Is this some grand conspiracy to throw little old ladies in jail? [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 15:12]
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Not up for an emotive one, especially with a poster I respect. And I also really have to get back to work, but will reply later on. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:21 - Mar 10 with 1363 views | stonojnr |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:00 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Precisely - the video and eye-witness do not match, yet the Judge goes out of his way to describe the witness as reliable. In fact, it appears this statement is *very* important in the guilty verdict, but visibly questionable. |
You're aware you haven't seen the full video right ?
The one the jury saw, the one the police involved in the case said would silence alot of the questions about the verdict if it had been seen. |  | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:27 - Mar 10 with 1327 views | Kievthegreat |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:21 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Not up for an emotive one, especially with a poster I respect. And I also really have to get back to work, but will reply later on. |
One final point then for when you return, the pedestrian didn't give any defence in court, but when initially interviewed by the police:
She said she "may have unintentionally put" out her hand to protect herself. Ms Grey believed she had made light contact with Mrs Ward.
After being shown the CCTV footage, interviewing officer Det Sgt Mark Dollard asked her why she said what she said, to which she responded: "I don't know."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64747184
It would seem she admitted to contact initially, albeit "unintentional". | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:01 - Mar 10 with 1267 views | RamRob |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:27 - Mar 10 by Kievthegreat |
One final point then for when you return, the pedestrian didn't give any defence in court, but when initially interviewed by the police:
She said she "may have unintentionally put" out her hand to protect herself. Ms Grey believed she had made light contact with Mrs Ward.
After being shown the CCTV footage, interviewing officer Det Sgt Mark Dollard asked her why she said what she said, to which she responded: "I don't know."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64747184
It would seem she admitted to contact initially, albeit "unintentional". |
What this thread demonstrates is that the media coverage of the case is insufficient, as it has cherry picked certain details and video clips that don't give the full facts of the case, I can see why people would question the verdict on the news report alone. Those with curious minds may focus on the "gaps" rather than accepting the judgment based on the limited info in the report. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:14 - Mar 10 with 1240 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:03 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
I think the cyclist's riding ability was one of the factors in the death yes - this is partly why I wouldn't call it manslaughter. |
I'm not sure we know anything about her riding ability, other than what we can see - she was startled/fearful and became unbalanced because of it, which could happen to anyone.
I still don't think it in anyway excuses what the pedestrian did or should make their sentence more lenient. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:19 - Mar 10 with 1240 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:12 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Of course it matters if there was contact or not!
"So it's not possible to knock someone off balance and they go on a bit before falling slightly after?!"
Its possible granted, but that leaves your position as the push, which may or may not have happenned, may or may not have caused a wobble further down the road.... lots of mays and maybes - I thought convictions were meant to be based on proof and certainty?
And are you really saying that unless I answer every post of yours, I'm being disingenuous?! Are you winding me up now?! |
Whether there's contact or it just misses - the action of the swinging arm clearly causes the accident. So no, actual contact or near contact doesn't matter. Either way it caused her death.
No I don't expect you to answer every post. In fact I literally said "Pick any one you fancy". But avoiding all of them, as you were, just makes it look like you don't have an answer/are trying to avoid answering because your argument's on thin ice. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:29 - Mar 10 with 1214 views | ronnyd |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:56 - Mar 10 by RamRob |
If the Eye witness account is accurate then the verdict/sentence is correct in my view, however when viewing the video it doesn't seem to match up with what the eye witness describes. I can't see that the cyclist has come to a halt
The angle from the camera doesn't clearly show how close the pedestrian is to the cyclist, I'd be interested to know what angle the eye witness had. |
Agree with that, the cyclist just appeared on the film for an instant then immediately fell into the road. | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 19:18 - Mar 10 with 1134 views | Clapham_Junction |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:36 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
If cars speed down a 3 lane 40mph limited road, because everyone does it, does that mean no one's speeding in law?
Re your last point, why has no one asked why the cyclist didn't swerve to the inside? If she had, no death. If the path was so wide and plentiful, that should have been an option. |
The second part is an absolutely shameful comment. Are you seriously blaming the cyclist for their own death???
Seriously ulla, you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole on this one and need to stop digging. |  | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 19:30 - Mar 10 with 1123 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:36 - Mar 10 by giant_stow |
Yes you're right in your scenario - I would be culpable. But of course, in this case there was no swinging punch and no provable resultant stagger back into the road.
Here's one for you:
You're partially sighted, physically disabled so more delicate than others and have a possible learning disability. A cyclist comes at you on what you believe to be a pavement - do you have a right to be frightened and defensive? |
The judge makes it clear:
Her disabilities did not put her at any risk.
She was used to cyclists using the path so it was not a surprise incident.
She does not have a learning disability.
The cyclist was not coming at her at all. She swerved to avoid the aggressive actions of the pedestrian.
Further, the perpetrator of the crime chose not to put any defence (which is her right) but the idea that she was frightened and defensive (not how her actions exhibit at all especially in the context above) is pure conjecture on your part. |  |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 20:02 - Mar 10 with 1088 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 19:18 - Mar 10 by Clapham_Junction |
The second part is an absolutely shameful comment. Are you seriously blaming the cyclist for their own death???
Seriously ulla, you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole on this one and need to stop digging. |
Hi all,
I seem to be upsetting some of you ('rabbit holes', 'conspiracy theories', 'anti cyclist' etc...) and I really don't mean to - I was discussing what I think is a very strange case.
There's loads left to debate, but I can see how my opinions are being positioned and have a feeling this is going to get nasty, so hope you'll all understand when I say i'll leave it there. Or at least for now.. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 20:59 - Mar 10 with 1035 views | rkc123 |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 09:36 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
If cars speed down a 3 lane 40mph limited road, because everyone does it, does that mean no one's speeding in law?
Re your last point, why has no one asked why the cyclist didn't swerve to the inside? If she had, no death. If the path was so wide and plentiful, that should have been an option. |
I am just catching up with this thread, and I realise some have already picked up on that second paragraph, but it really is nonsense, and surely must tell you that you can't see the wood for the trees on this one.
If it was genuine question, why a 78 year old woman made the fateful choice that resulted in her being forced in to an oncoming car rather than just up against a fence, might I suggest because the pedestrian gestures and points that way, likely influencing her choice in that split moment, or the fact there was a lamp post on the other side at the point they would have passed each other?
Also, there's been a lot of focus on the importance of whether it was a shared path or not? It doesn't matter. If a cyclist was to seek out contact or act to intimidate a pedestrian in a cycle path, resulting in the pedestrian getting injured or worse, then the cyclist would be deemed at fault. The cyclist on the path in this case was riding very slowly, causing no threat to the pedestrian, and giving her no reason to act in the way she did, so even if this was a pedestrian path and the cyclist shouldn't have been there, it doesn't excuse her actions and what resulted from them. | | | |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 21:49 - Mar 10 with 999 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 14:23 - Mar 10 by GlasgowBlue |
I bet you regret coming back to this thread now.
You're locked in for the next ten pages. |
Stop stirring Glassers.
And accusations of locking people in for ten pages are rather rich coming from your good self!
I think this is a good discussion and I'm genuinely interested in Ulla's thinking here. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:18 - May 8 with 423 views | Ewan_Oozami |
A tragic case but ultimately the correct decision to overturn the conviction IMHO.... [Post edited 8 May 15:20]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:37 - May 8 with 373 views | giant_stow |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 15:18 - May 8 by Ewan_Oozami |
A tragic case but ultimately the correct decision to overturn the conviction IMHO.... [Post edited 8 May 15:20]
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Agreed. As the judges imply, it should have never gone to court in the first place.
Also a lesson in the dangers of group-think, in twtd terms. | |
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:05 - May 8 with 322 views | Buhrer |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 18:36 - Mar 2 by giant_stow |
I think its important to separate the tragic nature of this with the causes.
I really don't want to upset anyone, but I would say there were various causes to this: the pedestrian's actions, the pedestrian's vulnerability, the 'design' (or lack of) of the pathway / combined with the apparent speed of car traffic and also, I'm really sorry to say, the lack of rider ability.
Blaming the death of the cyclist completely on the pedestrian seems unjust to me. |
..and the ex midwife still dead. [Post edited 8 May 16:05]
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| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:25 - May 8 with 288 views | Glory_Hunter |
| weird story: pedestrian jailed for causing death of a cyclist on 16:05 - May 8 by Buhrer |
..and the ex midwife still dead. [Post edited 8 May 16:05]
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Possibly been covered in the thread but I'm guessing the take on this would have been quite different if it had been a 10 year old child who went into that car having had their concentration messed with in this manner.
Pushing 80 is about as vulnerable as one can get and is an unlikely a threat you're going to find. No need for any aggression or gesturing. | | | |
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