| More of this says Starmer. on 14:33 - Jan 16 with 1221 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More of this says Starmer. on 13:47 - Jan 16 by Darth_Koont |
Strange downvotes.
If anyone can give me another politician (apart from Johnson) who has gone back on his word as much and in as many areas as Starmer then I’m all ears. Starmer clearly thinks words and even leadership pledges are entirely disposable.
If people are fine with that, then you’ve got the politics you deserve. |
How about voting against membership of the EEC, and spending your political career calling the EU “a great danger to the cause of socialism”, and then with a straight face telling the electorate to vote to remain in said EU. |  | |  |
| More of this says Starmer. on 14:52 - Jan 16 with 1186 views | leitrimblue |
What are Jeremy Clarksons views on the subject says Starmer |  | | |
| More of this says Starmer. on 14:53 - Jan 16 with 1180 views | DJR |
| More of this says Starmer. on 14:52 - Jan 16 by leitrimblue |
What are Jeremy Clarksons views on the subject says Starmer |
A funny comment below the line from Politics Live on the Guardian website.
"Sir Keir should have his own show on GB News." |  | | |
| More of this says Starmer. on 15:05 - Jan 16 with 1129 views | HARRY10 |
| More of this says Starmer. on 12:02 - Jan 16 by DJR |
What you say about young voters is alarming, especially as they may already be less inclined to register to vote, and may well not be bothered to overcome the ID obstacles to voting that the Tories have put in place.
Love him or loathe him, Corbyn did enthuse younger voters, not least because of his policies. |
The loathing came about through years of right wing media lies. Remember the allegation that he was a paid Czech imformer. Mud sticks, and the irony there being it was actually Johnson who had been taking money from the Russians and actually backed their invasion of Crimea in 2014.
I expect many on here would have heard claims about Corbyn from misinformed idiots. He was a member of the IRA, PLO, Red Brigade, Provisional WI etc.
Starmer is not dumb, nor a closet Tory. But at the moment he is doing a very good impression of one, and is in danger of causing some voters to wonder why bother, as he will be much the same.
Time to state the case for a return to sanity. Where the NHS and schools are properly funded. Where dumping sh it into the rivers so as to boost the dividends of shareholders is not accepted practice. Getting the trains to run, and on time (even Mussolini managed that).
Ensure the medical staff needed are trained and offered proper wages, and those already trained do not quit. None of this is revolutionary, or smacks of storming Buckingham Palace, but is getting back to sanity, rather than the lunacy we currently have.
So to hell with the paranoid 'wokey cokeys' and the brexit thickos. Whatever Lasbour or any other prgressive party says they will always swallow any old shyte peddled by the likes of Johnson and Farge. So stop pandering to them. In fact state that you will remove the attempts at brexit - trickle down effect, removing environment and workers protection and the attempts at cutting pay.
In other words, 'get off the fcking fence'. | | | |
| More of this says Starmer. on 15:21 - Jan 16 with 1116 views | Darth_Koont |
| More of this says Starmer. on 14:33 - Jan 16 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
How about voting against membership of the EEC, and spending your political career calling the EU “a great danger to the cause of socialism”, and then with a straight face telling the electorate to vote to remain in said EU. |
Corbyn went with the party and the membership in the end re: the EU.
But that’s the best you can do? Starmer has flipped on almost every issue including Brexit and is simultaneously removing any semblance of party democracy.
The man’s a dangerous fraud. You just think he’s your dangerous fraud. But that’s no different from the BoJo fanboys. |  |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 17:42 - Jan 16 with 1051 views | DJR |
| More of this says Starmer. on 15:05 - Jan 16 by HARRY10 |
The loathing came about through years of right wing media lies. Remember the allegation that he was a paid Czech imformer. Mud sticks, and the irony there being it was actually Johnson who had been taking money from the Russians and actually backed their invasion of Crimea in 2014.
I expect many on here would have heard claims about Corbyn from misinformed idiots. He was a member of the IRA, PLO, Red Brigade, Provisional WI etc.
Starmer is not dumb, nor a closet Tory. But at the moment he is doing a very good impression of one, and is in danger of causing some voters to wonder why bother, as he will be much the same.
Time to state the case for a return to sanity. Where the NHS and schools are properly funded. Where dumping sh it into the rivers so as to boost the dividends of shareholders is not accepted practice. Getting the trains to run, and on time (even Mussolini managed that).
Ensure the medical staff needed are trained and offered proper wages, and those already trained do not quit. None of this is revolutionary, or smacks of storming Buckingham Palace, but is getting back to sanity, rather than the lunacy we currently have.
So to hell with the paranoid 'wokey cokeys' and the brexit thickos. Whatever Lasbour or any other prgressive party says they will always swallow any old shyte peddled by the likes of Johnson and Farge. So stop pandering to them. In fact state that you will remove the attempts at brexit - trickle down effect, removing environment and workers protection and the attempts at cutting pay.
In other words, 'get off the fcking fence'. |
For a defence of Corbyn and a corroboration of the smear campaign against him, look no further that the following two articles from Peter Oborne, a right wing journalist who appears to have been banished from the MSM for having the audacity to hold such views.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/stepping-down-labour-leader-corbyn-can-hol
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/killing-jeremy-corbyn
And for those who would claim Peter Oborne is biased, note the following from the second article which he wrote jointly.
"We don’t hold a candle for Corbyn.
Neither of us are Labour Party members, and indeed one of us has worked as a political correspondent and commentator for The Spectator, The Daily Telegraph and The Daily Mail, three stalwarts of Tory opinion-making. Both of us care greatly about accurate, truthful journalism. Both of us, as British citizens, cherish the tradition of fair play and decency.
That is why we believe everyone should be concerned about the picture painted of Corbyn by the British media for the four years he was leader." [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 17:54]
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| More of this says Starmer. on 18:06 - Jan 16 with 1031 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More of this says Starmer. on 17:42 - Jan 16 by DJR |
For a defence of Corbyn and a corroboration of the smear campaign against him, look no further that the following two articles from Peter Oborne, a right wing journalist who appears to have been banished from the MSM for having the audacity to hold such views.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/stepping-down-labour-leader-corbyn-can-hol
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/killing-jeremy-corbyn
And for those who would claim Peter Oborne is biased, note the following from the second article which he wrote jointly.
"We don’t hold a candle for Corbyn.
Neither of us are Labour Party members, and indeed one of us has worked as a political correspondent and commentator for The Spectator, The Daily Telegraph and The Daily Mail, three stalwarts of Tory opinion-making. Both of us care greatly about accurate, truthful journalism. Both of us, as British citizens, cherish the tradition of fair play and decency.
That is why we believe everyone should be concerned about the picture painted of Corbyn by the British media for the four years he was leader." [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 17:54]
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Even the notoriously right wing Guardian was critical of him as a leader…not to mention certain independent Human Rights organisations (which shall not be named to avoid Groundhog Day/ruining Phil’s evening)… | | | |
| More of this says Starmer. on 18:23 - Jan 16 with 1014 views | JDB23 |
| More of this says Starmer. on 18:06 - Jan 16 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Even the notoriously right wing Guardian was critical of him as a leader…not to mention certain independent Human Rights organisations (which shall not be named to avoid Groundhog Day/ruining Phil’s evening)… |
Is there a single thread on Labour/Starmer where you don’t bring up Corbyn? Very strange obsession. | | | |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 18:34 - Jan 16 with 996 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More of this says Starmer. on 18:23 - Jan 16 by JDB23 |
Is there a single thread on Labour/Starmer where you don’t bring up Corbyn? Very strange obsession. |
Wasn’t me that brought him up, but thanks for noticing.
Very strange obsession 😃 | | | |
| More of this says Starmer. on 18:49 - Jan 16 with 988 views | Swansea_Blue |
| More of this says Starmer. on 21:13 - Jan 15 by HARRY10 |
Dowe think that Starmer is biding his time, well aware that if he reveals his hand too early the Tories will merely adopt Labours policies ?
Or is it that Labour has been dealt four aces with May, Johnson Truss and Sunak. Three committed to fcking the country up because of their adherence to brexit, so are happy to sit on their hands and watch.
Any thought that the country will be back to normal once inflation subsides is living in cloud cuckoo land. There are around 800,000 morgage payers coming off fixed deals of below 2%, who will see their new rate starting at 5.8%.
Those who have been subsidising their monthly budget using debt will eventually find that source drying up. And as the drop in spending hits retailers and producers alike there will be job losses.
These aren't vague predictions, just the inevitable consequence of what is already happening. The only question is by how much.
It is likened to the Blitz. Many were killed and many were saved by being in air raid shelters/the underground. The real damage was understood/felt when they surfaced, in the dayight and took stock of the devastation.
It is set to get worse than ever it is now. |
He might be biding his time, but if he is and is really a progressive Labour MP in hiding, he’ll eventually have to go back on the things he’s saying now. He’s u-turned on many of his leadership promises and you can see how that’s gone down with one side of the party. If he campaigns to win the Brexiteer, anti-immigrant, anti-unions vote and then swivels he’ll lose confidence with all of those voters too. Could be a short spell in power (assuming he gets there). I think he’s playing a dangerous game. There is appetite for more progressive policies - 2017 showed that and the support for those striking does too. |  |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 19:38 - Jan 16 with 948 views | Ryorry |
| More of this says Starmer. on 13:47 - Jan 16 by Darth_Koont |
Strange downvotes.
If anyone can give me another politician (apart from Johnson) who has gone back on his word as much and in as many areas as Starmer then I’m all ears. Starmer clearly thinks words and even leadership pledges are entirely disposable.
If people are fine with that, then you’ve got the politics you deserve. |
Downvoted because of your comment "The guy’s as empty, unprincipled, self-serving and ultimately dishonest as Johnson" which is just the kind of devious smear you say you abhor in politicians - which also highlights your hypocrisy.
Yes, Starmer's gone back on his promises on some things, & even I'm not happy with the way he's been steering things recently. But to equate him & Johnson because of that - seriously ... Here's a reminder for you of just some of Jobson's "empty, unprincipled, self-serving, dishonesty" -
Unlawfully proroguing Parliament
"Getting Brexit Done" in a way that impoverishes the UK in multiple ways, but enriches himself & his cronies
Systemic corruption - "spaffing" £billions to his cronies for useless PPE, T&T etc.
Serial lying, incl. in the HoC
Mishandling of the Pandemic (umbrella term for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, "let the bodies pile high", Cummings, Barnard Castle etc.)
Partygate
Racism ("piccaninnies" etc)
Unscrupulous in his personal life (the Jennifer Arcuri affair etc. etc. etc.)
Atrocious policies - cutting foreign aid, school meals etc.
Personal vanity projects; profligacy in the no.10 flat refurb. etc.
Donor secrecy
Meeting off-piste with Russian mates.
Etc etc etc.
Yet according to you, Starmer's as "unprincipled, self-serving & dishonest" as Johnson with all that behaviour & more. Clearly a preposterous comparison. [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 19:51]
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| More of this says Starmer. on 20:10 - Jan 16 with 900 views | DJR |
| More of this says Starmer. on 19:38 - Jan 16 by Ryorry |
Downvoted because of your comment "The guy’s as empty, unprincipled, self-serving and ultimately dishonest as Johnson" which is just the kind of devious smear you say you abhor in politicians - which also highlights your hypocrisy.
Yes, Starmer's gone back on his promises on some things, & even I'm not happy with the way he's been steering things recently. But to equate him & Johnson because of that - seriously ... Here's a reminder for you of just some of Jobson's "empty, unprincipled, self-serving, dishonesty" -
Unlawfully proroguing Parliament
"Getting Brexit Done" in a way that impoverishes the UK in multiple ways, but enriches himself & his cronies
Systemic corruption - "spaffing" £billions to his cronies for useless PPE, T&T etc.
Serial lying, incl. in the HoC
Mishandling of the Pandemic (umbrella term for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, "let the bodies pile high", Cummings, Barnard Castle etc.)
Partygate
Racism ("piccaninnies" etc)
Unscrupulous in his personal life (the Jennifer Arcuri affair etc. etc. etc.)
Atrocious policies - cutting foreign aid, school meals etc.
Personal vanity projects; profligacy in the no.10 flat refurb. etc.
Donor secrecy
Meeting off-piste with Russian mates.
Etc etc etc.
Yet according to you, Starmer's as "unprincipled, self-serving & dishonest" as Johnson with all that behaviour & more. Clearly a preposterous comparison. [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 19:51]
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Yes, it is certainly the case that Starmer is a decent man and not a freeloader, something you could never say about Johnson.
My concern is that, with no political background, he is a bit of an empty vessel, and thus prey to the Blairite advisors and focus group analysts who seem to be in charge.
Anyway, as someone who voted for him in the leadership election, I feel I have more right than most to grumble. [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 20:15]
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| More of this says Starmer. on 21:59 - Jan 16 with 857 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| More of this says Starmer. on 08:53 - Jan 16 by itfcjoe |
Whatever a party needs to do to stop the ludicrous sit on phone at 8am system and pray you are there early enough and you get a call back from GP will be a vote winner |
You mean fund the NHS properly, give the workers a proper pay rise and train more doctors, teachers, nurses, etc, reverse Brexit and improve retention through improving terms and conditions?
Or everything the right wing media opposes and Starmer is desperate to avoid.
If only there was a party prepared to say they will increase taxation for those who can afford it (including restoring corporation tax to the level of other developed countries) and stating it will improve public services and thereby the basic living standard for all. |  |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 06:50 - Jan 17 with 792 views | Darth_Koont |
| More of this says Starmer. on 19:38 - Jan 16 by Ryorry |
Downvoted because of your comment "The guy’s as empty, unprincipled, self-serving and ultimately dishonest as Johnson" which is just the kind of devious smear you say you abhor in politicians - which also highlights your hypocrisy.
Yes, Starmer's gone back on his promises on some things, & even I'm not happy with the way he's been steering things recently. But to equate him & Johnson because of that - seriously ... Here's a reminder for you of just some of Jobson's "empty, unprincipled, self-serving, dishonesty" -
Unlawfully proroguing Parliament
"Getting Brexit Done" in a way that impoverishes the UK in multiple ways, but enriches himself & his cronies
Systemic corruption - "spaffing" £billions to his cronies for useless PPE, T&T etc.
Serial lying, incl. in the HoC
Mishandling of the Pandemic (umbrella term for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, "let the bodies pile high", Cummings, Barnard Castle etc.)
Partygate
Racism ("piccaninnies" etc)
Unscrupulous in his personal life (the Jennifer Arcuri affair etc. etc. etc.)
Atrocious policies - cutting foreign aid, school meals etc.
Personal vanity projects; profligacy in the no.10 flat refurb. etc.
Donor secrecy
Meeting off-piste with Russian mates.
Etc etc etc.
Yet according to you, Starmer's as "unprincipled, self-serving & dishonest" as Johnson with all that behaviour & more. Clearly a preposterous comparison. [Post edited 16 Jan 2023 19:51]
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It's a prepostorous comparison in your mind where you say Starmer's "gone back on his promises on a few things" ... try ALL of his leadership pledges. There's never been a more dishonest personal campaign in British politics!
And I don't conflate Boris's carelessness and incompetence in government with his also being empty, unprincipled, self-serving and dishonest.
That's why Starmer scares me. He's the kind of smoothly efficient and featureless moral void who clearly can fool most people most of the time. Couple that with the shamelessly authoritarian approach to running the Labour party and consolidating power and I think he's a risk in government on his own terms. | |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 08:28 - Jan 17 with 726 views | itfcjoe |
| More of this says Starmer. on 21:59 - Jan 16 by Nthsuffolkblue |
You mean fund the NHS properly, give the workers a proper pay rise and train more doctors, teachers, nurses, etc, reverse Brexit and improve retention through improving terms and conditions?
Or everything the right wing media opposes and Starmer is desperate to avoid.
If only there was a party prepared to say they will increase taxation for those who can afford it (including restoring corporation tax to the level of other developed countries) and stating it will improve public services and thereby the basic living standard for all. |
I do agree that the NHS is probably in a state where it just needs money poured into it like Blair did in 1997 to turn it round, but is is crazy how much of our GDP is spent on health compared to things like education and how poor the service has become in many ways.
I'm hoping that just having a party with the political will to make the NHS work, which Labour does have, will make a bigger difference than pledges made but I do agree with a lot of what Streeting has said in the matter even if I don't agree with all of it. |  |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 08:42 - Jan 17 with 716 views | DanTheMan |
| More of this says Starmer. on 08:28 - Jan 17 by itfcjoe |
I do agree that the NHS is probably in a state where it just needs money poured into it like Blair did in 1997 to turn it round, but is is crazy how much of our GDP is spent on health compared to things like education and how poor the service has become in many ways.
I'm hoping that just having a party with the political will to make the NHS work, which Labour does have, will make a bigger difference than pledges made but I do agree with a lot of what Streeting has said in the matter even if I don't agree with all of it. |
Isn't that spending fairly normal for a country of our demographics?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthca
This is a little out of date and pre-pandemic but it certainly doesn't seem we're a crazy outlier. |  |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 08:53 - Jan 17 with 709 views | BlueRaider |
It does seem ridiculous, surely a partnership between the NHS and care homes could remove the need for the agencies ! | |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 09:13 - Jan 17 with 699 views | itfcjoe |
But to spending that sort of median figure, with the service being received seems like very poor value for money at the moment - when you can't get a Dr's appointment, call an ambulance, and waiting lists are 2 years long.
Without some form of reform, you'd need to whack another 50% on that to get things working properly which isn't possible. How much more of GDP could be redirected there and how big a difference would that make currently?
It's been run down by the Tories in the way no Labour Govt would ever do, no matter what people think of Starmer and the current leadership of the Labour party | |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 09:27 - Jan 17 with 675 views | DanTheMan |
| More of this says Starmer. on 09:13 - Jan 17 by itfcjoe |
But to spending that sort of median figure, with the service being received seems like very poor value for money at the moment - when you can't get a Dr's appointment, call an ambulance, and waiting lists are 2 years long.
Without some form of reform, you'd need to whack another 50% on that to get things working properly which isn't possible. How much more of GDP could be redirected there and how big a difference would that make currently?
It's been run down by the Tories in the way no Labour Govt would ever do, no matter what people think of Starmer and the current leadership of the Labour party |
I absolutely agree something is very wrong, and there probably are some funding issues especially related to an ageing population.
I imagine these figures also don't show upstream impacts of things like moving social care to local council budgets and then absolutely slashing them. I remember reading that this was one of the biggest issues that is / was facing the NHS as it means they can't get otherwise healthy people out of beds and into care when needed.
But that's the problem with just slashing stuff willy nilly and expecting councils just to be able to work it out. No long-term thinking or thinking through the consequences of chained up systems. | |
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| More of this says Starmer. on 09:48 - Jan 17 with 665 views | DJR |
| More of this says Starmer. on 09:13 - Jan 17 by itfcjoe |
But to spending that sort of median figure, with the service being received seems like very poor value for money at the moment - when you can't get a Dr's appointment, call an ambulance, and waiting lists are 2 years long.
Without some form of reform, you'd need to whack another 50% on that to get things working properly which isn't possible. How much more of GDP could be redirected there and how big a difference would that make currently?
It's been run down by the Tories in the way no Labour Govt would ever do, no matter what people think of Starmer and the current leadership of the Labour party |
The percentage of GDP spent on the NHS has to be seen in the context of an economy which has not grown as much as normal since 2008-09, thus making NHS spending seem more than it is.
As you say, the service has been run down by the Tories because although it has increased NHS spending in real terms, those increases (especially under the coalition government) were far lower than the average increase since the war, and this at a time of an ageing and rapidly growing population.
We are also near the bottom of the European list when it comes to doctors and hospital beds per head of population.
All in all, it is an extremely difficult problem to solve, made much worse by the position in social care, but at least Starmer and Labour's heart is in the right place. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 9:50]
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| More of this says Starmer. on 13:44 - Jan 17 with 625 views | positivity |
| More of this says Starmer. on 09:48 - Jan 17 by DJR |
The percentage of GDP spent on the NHS has to be seen in the context of an economy which has not grown as much as normal since 2008-09, thus making NHS spending seem more than it is.
As you say, the service has been run down by the Tories because although it has increased NHS spending in real terms, those increases (especially under the coalition government) were far lower than the average increase since the war, and this at a time of an ageing and rapidly growing population.
We are also near the bottom of the European list when it comes to doctors and hospital beds per head of population.
All in all, it is an extremely difficult problem to solve, made much worse by the position in social care, but at least Starmer and Labour's heart is in the right place. [Post edited 17 Jan 2023 9:50]
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the only thing i've seen from starmer is about nationalising the GP service, which would be a great move, i know quite a few GPs and they'd love to be able to ditch the business stuff and get on with being a doctor.
might be a tricky one to push through, but making it voluntary would help | |
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