| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:21 - Jan 2 with 947 views | MattinLondon |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:09 - Jan 2 by chicoazul |
What about if the voters largely don't agree or care about that? |
The British voter is mainly an idiot or stupid - in some cases both. |  | |  |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:23 - Jan 2 with 943 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:21 - Jan 2 by MattinLondon |
The British voter is mainly an idiot or stupid - in some cases both. |
And there in one sentence you've highlighted why someone who has you as a representative will find it hard to win an election.
Whether you are right or wrong it's really not the way to go about education and changing the minds of people who you need to support you. It just leads to the situation we have now.
SB |  |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:24 - Jan 2 with 940 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:09 - Jan 2 by chicoazul |
What about if the voters largely don't agree or care about that? |
The voters do care about that as has been shown in polling of the issues. The fight is against the conditioning of our right-wing and limp centrist media that packages all this as ultra left-wing and somehow dangerous.
Labour has a number of years to sell a proper alternative to them first. Or we'll just end up with the same Blairite response that actually cemented the rightward trend in this country. |  |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:30 - Jan 2 with 927 views | MattinLondon |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:23 - Jan 2 by StokieBlue |
And there in one sentence you've highlighted why someone who has you as a representative will find it hard to win an election.
Whether you are right or wrong it's really not the way to go about education and changing the minds of people who you need to support you. It just leads to the situation we have now.
SB |
I’ve given up on other people. I’ve spoken to brexiteers and to people who will vote Tory and don’t care about the consequences- they are idiots. | | | |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:31 - Jan 2 with 923 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:24 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
The voters do care about that as has been shown in polling of the issues. The fight is against the conditioning of our right-wing and limp centrist media that packages all this as ultra left-wing and somehow dangerous.
Labour has a number of years to sell a proper alternative to them first. Or we'll just end up with the same Blairite response that actually cemented the rightward trend in this country. |
So you are saying that Labours own membership has bought the "ring-wing media lies" and thus that is why they want someone who was essentially against such a large and sweeping manifesto and who was hidden away during the election campaign so that he didn't make a fuss?
If you aren't then how do you explain this poll?
SB | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:32 - Jan 2 with 917 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:30 - Jan 2 by MattinLondon |
I’ve given up on other people. I’ve spoken to brexiteers and to people who will vote Tory and don’t care about the consequences- they are idiots. |
You can't change it with an attitude like yours. All you do with insults is harden their stance and perpetuate that which you hate.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:34 - Jan 2 with 913 views | chicoazul |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:24 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
The voters do care about that as has been shown in polling of the issues. The fight is against the conditioning of our right-wing and limp centrist media that packages all this as ultra left-wing and somehow dangerous.
Labour has a number of years to sell a proper alternative to them first. Or we'll just end up with the same Blairite response that actually cemented the rightward trend in this country. |
I don't disagree with you on much of that, but Labour clearly wasnt able to either carry out what you call the fight effectively, or turn that sentiment into votes. So they need to communicate much better. Which I daresy is what Elephant meant by his post. |  |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:34 - Jan 2 with 908 views | chicoazul |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:21 - Jan 2 by MattinLondon |
The British voter is mainly an idiot or stupid - in some cases both. |
Calling people you disagree with stupid is working really well for everyone at the moment. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:36 - Jan 2 with 903 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:30 - Jan 2 by MattinLondon |
I’ve given up on other people. I’ve spoken to brexiteers and to people who will vote Tory and don’t care about the consequences- they are idiots. |
That's basically the battle there. There's no particular logic to voting for Brexit or the Tories and the rational arguments are almost non-existent given everything we now know about both.
But it speaks to a sort of brand loyalty that the Labour Party need to address over the next couple of years before they get dragged into an election where the stronger brand will always triumph over the weaker brand. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:43 - Jan 2 with 881 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:31 - Jan 2 by StokieBlue |
So you are saying that Labours own membership has bought the "ring-wing media lies" and thus that is why they want someone who was essentially against such a large and sweeping manifesto and who was hidden away during the election campaign so that he didn't make a fuss?
If you aren't then how do you explain this poll?
SB |
I think you're comparing apples with oranges. While Starmer wasn't as active in pushing the more radical and sweeping changes he was still a leading member of the Shadow Cabinet and one of the highest profiles of the recent campaign. In a leadership election he was always going to come to the fore.
But he'd probably be a good solution to their branding problem I'm talking about. And, if policy is still being decided by the membership at conference, then I don't think there'll be a significantly different policy programme. Changing the cosmetics is the key here. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:49 - Jan 2 with 867 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:43 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
I think you're comparing apples with oranges. While Starmer wasn't as active in pushing the more radical and sweeping changes he was still a leading member of the Shadow Cabinet and one of the highest profiles of the recent campaign. In a leadership election he was always going to come to the fore.
But he'd probably be a good solution to their branding problem I'm talking about. And, if policy is still being decided by the membership at conference, then I don't think there'll be a significantly different policy programme. Changing the cosmetics is the key here. |
"one of the highest profiles of the recent campaign"
Really not sure about that. Starmer was hidden away in the campaign as he disagreed with the scope of the manifesto and Brexit stance - he has even said as much in subsequent interviews. He hardly said anything in the campaign.
Was all policy decided by the membership? I am sure we can all remember the farcical scenes when the vote for the Brexit policy didn't agree with Corbyn's personal preferences.
I do think he is by far the best bet for Labour but I don't think they will be as radical as there were under and that might be a problem for some. You may well be right though that not much will change except a person that's more palatable for some voters.
SB | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:59 - Jan 2 with 847 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:49 - Jan 2 by StokieBlue |
"one of the highest profiles of the recent campaign"
Really not sure about that. Starmer was hidden away in the campaign as he disagreed with the scope of the manifesto and Brexit stance - he has even said as much in subsequent interviews. He hardly said anything in the campaign.
Was all policy decided by the membership? I am sure we can all remember the farcical scenes when the vote for the Brexit policy didn't agree with Corbyn's personal preferences.
I do think he is by far the best bet for Labour but I don't think they will be as radical as there were under and that might be a problem for some. You may well be right though that not much will change except a person that's more palatable for some voters.
SB |
He was higher profile than the other leadership candidates though. And certainly more recognisable than Long-Bailey.
As far as I can see Starmer has promised a radical enough programme but been more vocal about trying to involve everyone. I don't disagree with him on that score. Again, that's the battle in a nutshell.
It was a pity that so many of the PLP didn't do as he did and work alongside Corbyn and McDonnell. But basically they decided in 2015 that they would rather balls it up for everyone than see the party move to somewhere more relevant in the wider scheme of British politics and the country's needs. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:10 - Jan 2 with 831 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:43 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
I think you're comparing apples with oranges. While Starmer wasn't as active in pushing the more radical and sweeping changes he was still a leading member of the Shadow Cabinet and one of the highest profiles of the recent campaign. In a leadership election he was always going to come to the fore.
But he'd probably be a good solution to their branding problem I'm talking about. And, if policy is still being decided by the membership at conference, then I don't think there'll be a significantly different policy programme. Changing the cosmetics is the key here. |
Looks like one of the most active Corbyn supporters is already trying to demonise Starmer and position him as anti-Labour, or her version of Labour anyway.
More and more noise behind Lavery to continue the good work of Corbyn. The same Lavery who yesterday said Labour wasn’t the problem, their remain position was why they lost.
https://inews.co.uk/news/labour-leadership-remain-brexit-not-jeremy-corbyn-lost- [Post edited 2 Jan 2020 11:11]
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:20 - Jan 2 with 813 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 09:43 - Jan 2 by WD19 |
They need to get away from the mindset that if enough people (consistently) don't vote for them it is because the majority are just wrong.....
You can almost see them chucking another election under RLB and then claiming it is the electorates fault for being some combination of stupid, racist, wrong and sexist.
To my mind you can't be serious about caring about 'the many' if you are not serious about winning power (and making your policies possible) in the first place. |
You certainly can’t be serious about caring for the many when you make it abundantly clear that you can’t stand them, that’s for sure |  |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:50 - Jan 2 with 782 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 05:50 - Jan 2 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Not a Labour member but I think Phillips would get my vote too. That said Chico made a very good point previously about the likely perception of a working class female leader with a Brummie accent, which makes me worry I’m guilty of the same kind of wishful thinking re her electability as Corbyn supporters were
I’d love to find out though, although ideally in a world where failure doesn’t mean another decade of Tory rule |
One thing I don't understand is why Phillips is seen (or defines herself) as being working class; both her parents were (presumably university-educated) professionals. I don't think she has too much chance of winning as she'll be quite a divisive candidate for many members given her performance in the build-up to the 2017 elections.
I think Starmer would be an excellent leader. However, I don't think it would be a good idea for another central London MP to hold the leadership as it'll just mean more lazy stereotyping along the 'Islington metropolitan elite' lines (for the same reason, I was amazed at the lack of self-awareness of Emily Thornberry putting herself up for the post). |  | | |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:53 - Jan 2 with 779 views | itfcjoe |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:10 - Jan 2 by ElderGrizzly |
Looks like one of the most active Corbyn supporters is already trying to demonise Starmer and position him as anti-Labour, or her version of Labour anyway.
More and more noise behind Lavery to continue the good work of Corbyn. The same Lavery who yesterday said Labour wasn’t the problem, their remain position was why they lost.
https://inews.co.uk/news/labour-leadership-remain-brexit-not-jeremy-corbyn-lost- [Post edited 2 Jan 2020 11:11]
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Well I've joined, and I'll be voting for him to bring the Labour Party back, , not to 'kill them off'.
I'll happily 'kill off' the likes of Rachael from Swindon's version of the Labour Party - the one that doesn't win elections or actually help anyone bar their own ego. I'm sure she'll have a Nan die soon and be on the scrounge again |  |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:55 - Jan 2 with 773 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:10 - Jan 2 by ElderGrizzly |
Looks like one of the most active Corbyn supporters is already trying to demonise Starmer and position him as anti-Labour, or her version of Labour anyway.
More and more noise behind Lavery to continue the good work of Corbyn. The same Lavery who yesterday said Labour wasn’t the problem, their remain position was why they lost.
https://inews.co.uk/news/labour-leadership-remain-brexit-not-jeremy-corbyn-lost- [Post edited 2 Jan 2020 11:11]
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Not sure I get her reasoning. With a Leave stance you could equally argue the party was courting Tory voters.
Anyway with the Tory majority, Brexit is out of Labour's hands for the time being.
Whether the Second Referendum on a softer Brexit or a flat-out Leave or Remain option would have worked better at the election doesn't detract from what is the right thing to do. And ultimately anyone who still maintains an overall Remain stance will be on the right side of history and the argument going forward. Sad to say for the country as a whole but holding the Tories to account for their shameless pro-Brexit politicking and shambolic management of negotiations will be Labour's major weapon in the years ahead. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:57 - Jan 2 with 769 views | itfcjoe |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:50 - Jan 2 by Clapham_Junction |
One thing I don't understand is why Phillips is seen (or defines herself) as being working class; both her parents were (presumably university-educated) professionals. I don't think she has too much chance of winning as she'll be quite a divisive candidate for many members given her performance in the build-up to the 2017 elections.
I think Starmer would be an excellent leader. However, I don't think it would be a good idea for another central London MP to hold the leadership as it'll just mean more lazy stereotyping along the 'Islington metropolitan elite' lines (for the same reason, I was amazed at the lack of self-awareness of Emily Thornberry putting herself up for the post). |
Starmer would need a deputy from the North (Nandy or Phillips) and really push the message that he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
I wouldn't worry too much about the Islington stuff re KS as long as he doesn't surrond himself with the same people Corbyn did, which he presumably is too smart to do | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:57 - Jan 2 with 769 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:20 - Jan 2 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
You certainly can’t be serious about caring for the many when you make it abundantly clear that you can’t stand them, that’s for sure |
How do you work that out?
Using facts rather than an opinion-based narrative. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:26 - Jan 2 with 730 views | GaryCooper |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:30 - Jan 2 by MattinLondon |
I’ve given up on other people. I’ve spoken to brexiteers and to people who will vote Tory and don’t care about the consequences- they are idiots. |
Bigot. |  | | |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:31 - Jan 2 with 728 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 11:57 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
How do you work that out?
Using facts rather than an opinion-based narrative. |
Afternoon captain serious, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment based on comments like the one in this thread about large portions of the electorate being idiots | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:34 - Jan 2 with 721 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:31 - Jan 2 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Afternoon captain serious, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment based on comments like the one in this thread about large portions of the electorate being idiots |
What makes you think I took it seriously?
Tongue in cheek? Head up @rse? It's all the same. | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:38 - Jan 2 with 711 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:34 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
What makes you think I took it seriously?
Tongue in cheek? Head up @rse? It's all the same. |
Responses like that, mostly | |
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:43 - Jan 2 with 700 views | tractordownsouth |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 10:23 - Jan 2 by StokieBlue |
And there in one sentence you've highlighted why someone who has you as a representative will find it hard to win an election.
Whether you are right or wrong it's really not the way to go about education and changing the minds of people who you need to support you. It just leads to the situation we have now.
SB |
I agree with that and I think it's entirely counter productive to insult people. However, I think this perception that Labour are looking down on the working people, which forced them to vote Tory, is a bit skewed. Sure, the attitude from some Labour members is poor, and that needs addressing but in elections people don't vote for members they vote for politicians.
Can anyone find a single pre- election quote where any Labour candidates mocked or looked down upon working people? Whereas for the Tories you can take your pick - Johnson calling working class people "drunk, feckless and lazy", Mogg's comments about Grenfell, Raab co-authoring a book calling British workers "among the worst idlers" etc. Add to that their policies of austerity have shown their disdain for workers. I think the narrative that the Tories have listened to ordinary people, has only come about because they're willing to proceed with the Brexit process, despite none of the main Brexit campaign pledges being included in Johnson's deal. The response I got when campaigning was " I don't care, I want it done", when I explained that the deal was in no way similar to 2016. I've challenged a lot of people when they claim that Labour have called them racist nazis etc, and none of them can provide a quote, it's all abour Brexit.
Not that I'm trying to spin this in to anything other than a crushing defeat for Labour, the strategy was completely wrong. I think Corbyn was too bland to many voters, and he got away with it in 2017 by May being even worse. Cooper or Phillips are still my choice but in a final ballot between RLB and Starmer i would choose Starmer by a mile. [Post edited 2 Jan 2020 12:44]
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| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 12:51 - Jan 2 with 689 views | GunnsAirkick |
| Starmer is the members choice for Labour Leader apparently on 23:57 - Jan 1 by lowhouseblue |
starmer, phillips, nandy or copper for me.
whoever it is, it's a bloody long way back from where we are now.
if the loons force corbyn in a dress on us then the tories will be in till the 2030s. |
My preference is Starmer or Nandy. I'm not sure RLB would be as bad as Corbyn but she doesn't exactly fill me with confidence either, better than Lavery though!
For deputy anyone but Burgon, he is a complete and utter liability and needs to be taken off the front bench at the first opportunity. Probably Rayner for me. |  | | |
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