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Electric buses 08:18 - Dec 7 with 1125 viewshampstead_blue

So, today Labour are offering a nationwide fleet of electric buses by 2030.

I love a podcast by Chris Harris, Collecting Cars.
In the episode with Andrew Frankel they discuss electric cars. One key point is weight and child labour in the DoC for the mining of metals for the batteries.

I'm a huge advocate of zero emission vehicles. Recently we've taken on Tesla and Toyota as clients. I've been to the Toyota training academy and the stand out vehicle is the hydrogen car.

One of the senior trainers at Toyota is of the view that Hydrogen will become the main fuel of choice over time.
Next year's Tokyo Olympics Toyota will have a fleet of hydrogen powered vehicles shuttling people around.

I seriously doubt electric buses are the solution. What if they are obsolete after just a few years. A huge sunk cost.

I don't think they have thought it through and are just throwing stuff at the wall.

Invest in hydrogen and electric infrastructure and reduce the VAT on those vehicles.
That will rapidly reduce the carbon footprint and give people cheaper vehicles.

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Electric buses on 08:25 - Dec 7 with 878 viewsBryanPlug

If the technology is there, then this is potentially a good idea, but again with Corbyn it smacks of desperate promise making to win votes from a certain demographic without considering the practicalities, actual cost and how to pay for it.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2019 8:25]
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Electric buses on 08:35 - Dec 7 with 843 viewsEdwardStone

Spot on analysis Mr H.....the whole rechargeable electric vehicle groove is a flash in the pan, an interesting diversion much like the rotary aero-engine of 100 years ago

Hydrogen is the only viable way forward but it does require someone to make a huge commitment to provide the refuelling infrastructure. Sadly, I fear that the provision of recharging points will be seen as a higher priority and therefore most resources will be thrown at these rather than grasping the nettle and going flat out for hydrogen

The first UK hydrogen cars should be on the streets of Abergavenny sometime in the next year or so....a tiny timid step into the future at the time when we should be taking confident giant strides
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Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 with 829 viewshampstead_blue

Electric buses on 08:35 - Dec 7 by EdwardStone

Spot on analysis Mr H.....the whole rechargeable electric vehicle groove is a flash in the pan, an interesting diversion much like the rotary aero-engine of 100 years ago

Hydrogen is the only viable way forward but it does require someone to make a huge commitment to provide the refuelling infrastructure. Sadly, I fear that the provision of recharging points will be seen as a higher priority and therefore most resources will be thrown at these rather than grasping the nettle and going flat out for hydrogen

The first UK hydrogen cars should be on the streets of Abergavenny sometime in the next year or so....a tiny timid step into the future at the time when we should be taking confident giant strides


Is that the chap in North Wales who is offering them for local use?
If so then he is very cool.

I spent a lot of time talking to Toyota about this. They have refined the technology to improve the range thus reducing the size of the tank.
There is a worry about explosions if it gets free but the fuel cells are designed to release the fuel in a way it's just oxygen.

Very clever, very cool.

It is also a very interesting case study in how technology is fast and Government has a very long lag which could be very hard to break.

It would be great to get a Minister into the Environment office who is quick minded and pivots quicker.
Agile Government.....

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Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 with 833 viewsElephantintheRoom

Two little snags that Toyota are struggling to overcome

1. Where does the hydrogen come from?

2. How do you stop it going BOOOOOM?


At present both seem unaswerable - hence the obsession with useless battery powered vehicles

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Electric buses on 08:41 - Dec 7 with 826 viewsartsbossbeard

Electric buses on 08:25 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

If the technology is there, then this is potentially a good idea, but again with Corbyn it smacks of desperate promise making to win votes from a certain demographic without considering the practicalities, actual cost and how to pay for it.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2019 8:25]


Have you advised Elon Musk of this?

Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
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Electric buses on 08:44 - Dec 7 with 814 viewsartsbossbeard

Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 by ElephantintheRoom

Two little snags that Toyota are struggling to overcome

1. Where does the hydrogen come from?

2. How do you stop it going BOOOOOM?


At present both seem unaswerable - hence the obsession with useless battery powered vehicles


Shush!! We're having a pop at the Labour Party not looking at fundamental issues.

Keep up the good work, Hampstead. Super stuff, as always.

Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
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Electric buses on 08:45 - Dec 7 with 815 viewsWD19

Now if only they could get them to deliver my milk and limeade too...that really would be a vote winner.
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Electric buses on 08:48 - Dec 7 with 804 viewsEdwardStone

Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 by ElephantintheRoom

Two little snags that Toyota are struggling to overcome

1. Where does the hydrogen come from?

2. How do you stop it going BOOOOOM?


At present both seem unaswerable - hence the obsession with useless battery powered vehicles


Hydrogen currently arrives courtesy of ICI but it is entirely feasible to make it from a "renewable" process....where there is demand there will be a (hopefully Green) solution

Hydrogen is more dangerous than petrol and yet we seem entirely comfortable travelling in a car with many litres of the stuff. Safe handling and storage are not insurmountable problems.

For Mr H, the company involved in manufacture and supply of the vehicles is Riversimple (I know....I suspect the owner's kids thought up the name...) based in Llandridod Wells

https://www.riversimple.com/
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Electric buses on 08:49 - Dec 7 with 800 viewsLegendofthePhoenix

Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 by ElephantintheRoom

Two little snags that Toyota are struggling to overcome

1. Where does the hydrogen come from?

2. How do you stop it going BOOOOOM?


At present both seem unaswerable - hence the obsession with useless battery powered vehicles


Where does the hydrogen come from? Are you kidding?????
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Electric buses on 08:59 - Dec 7 with 777 viewsGuthrum

Electric buses on 08:40 - Dec 7 by ElephantintheRoom

Two little snags that Toyota are struggling to overcome

1. Where does the hydrogen come from?

2. How do you stop it going BOOOOOM?


At present both seem unaswerable - hence the obsession with useless battery powered vehicles


Where does the hydrogen come from? Water, potentially. There's quite a bit of that sloshing around.

The splitting process takes energy, yes. But that can be produced by renewable/low-impact means. It's not as if oil and coal extraction is exactly cheap or easy.

Existing petroleum fuels are often pretty volatile - especially the aviation versions (wouldn't be worth using if it wasn't) and we've found ways to safely handle those. They're hardly planning to just cart round a big bag of the stuff like the R101.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2019 9:09]

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
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Electric buses on 09:09 - Dec 7 with 746 viewsBryanPlug

Electric buses on 08:41 - Dec 7 by artsbossbeard

Have you advised Elon Musk of this?


Sorry?
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Electric buses on 09:16 - Dec 7 with 733 viewsartsbossbeard

Electric buses on 09:09 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

Sorry?


Well, you seem to have spotted a flaw in his plan to assist with the world using electric rather than fossil fuel.

Might be worth letting him know this.

Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
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Electric buses on 09:16 - Dec 7 with 736 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Electric buses on 08:35 - Dec 7 by EdwardStone

Spot on analysis Mr H.....the whole rechargeable electric vehicle groove is a flash in the pan, an interesting diversion much like the rotary aero-engine of 100 years ago

Hydrogen is the only viable way forward but it does require someone to make a huge commitment to provide the refuelling infrastructure. Sadly, I fear that the provision of recharging points will be seen as a higher priority and therefore most resources will be thrown at these rather than grasping the nettle and going flat out for hydrogen

The first UK hydrogen cars should be on the streets of Abergavenny sometime in the next year or so....a tiny timid step into the future at the time when we should be taking confident giant strides


From the little I know hydrogen does seem to be the way to go ....maybe there is less money to be made in it fom associated infrastructure. If I remember correctly you know Dale V....does he have any thoughts?

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Electric buses on 09:18 - Dec 7 with 726 viewsBryanPlug

Electric buses on 09:16 - Dec 7 by artsbossbeard

Well, you seem to have spotted a flaw in his plan to assist with the world using electric rather than fossil fuel.

Might be worth letting him know this.


Do I? How’s that then?
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Electric buses on 09:21 - Dec 7 with 721 viewsBackToRussia

Electric buses on 08:25 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

If the technology is there, then this is potentially a good idea, but again with Corbyn it smacks of desperate promise making to win votes from a certain demographic without considering the practicalities, actual cost and how to pay for it.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2019 8:25]


Does it? Or do you maybe just not like the bloke so you've written it off before you have any idea how they intend to implement it?

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Electric buses on 09:28 - Dec 7 with 698 viewsartsbossbeard

Electric buses on 09:18 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

Do I? How’s that then?


Actually, I owe you an apology.

Your woolly answer to the hydrogen/electric OP made me believe that you were casting dispersions on electric power and the steps already taken on this route.

Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
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Electric buses on 09:29 - Dec 7 with 695 viewsBryanPlug

Electric buses on 09:21 - Dec 7 by BackToRussia

Does it? Or do you maybe just not like the bloke so you've written it off before you have any idea how they intend to implement it?


Well if he’s got any money left after buying back BT and the water and rail companies then I suppose this will just be a bit of loose change in comparison.
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Electric buses on 09:44 - Dec 7 with 666 viewsBackToRussia

Electric buses on 09:29 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

Well if he’s got any money left after buying back BT and the water and rail companies then I suppose this will just be a bit of loose change in comparison.


That's the thing, you have no idea how much all that will cost or how they intend to pay for it. You've simply decided its unfeasible and that they're fools for trying. On what basis? Are you an economist?

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Electric buses on 09:56 - Dec 7 with 646 viewsBryanPlug

Electric buses on 09:44 - Dec 7 by BackToRussia

That's the thing, you have no idea how much all that will cost or how they intend to pay for it. You've simply decided its unfeasible and that they're fools for trying. On what basis? Are you an economist?


I’m not an economist but luckily I am able to read. Some actual real economists have costed Labour’s manifesto and called it ‘extreme and unrealistic’. Look:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/11/21/much-will-labour-manifesto
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Electric buses on 10:05 - Dec 7 with 626 viewsBackToRussia

Electric buses on 09:56 - Dec 7 by BryanPlug

I’m not an economist but luckily I am able to read. Some actual real economists have costed Labour’s manifesto and called it ‘extreme and unrealistic’. Look:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/11/21/much-will-labour-manifesto


And many others have backed it. Now what?

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Electric buses on 10:18 - Dec 7 with 605 viewsEdwardStone

Electric buses on 09:16 - Dec 7 by BanksterDebtSlave

From the little I know hydrogen does seem to be the way to go ....maybe there is less money to be made in it fom associated infrastructure. If I remember correctly you know Dale V....does he have any thoughts?


I do know Mr Vince, but not that well. I last saw him a few years ago

I have not raised this topic with him....but IIRC he tipped shedloads of cash into a super-fast elec hypercar. I don't believe that it was a resounding success
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Electric buses on 10:28 - Dec 7 with 576 viewsClapham_Junction

I don't think hydrogen will be the way forward except in a limited number of cases where power, distance or temperatures means electric is impractical. Electric buses will be the norm - especially as most are used in urban areas with reduced need for range. TfL have had hydrogen buses for over six years, but have decided electric is the way forward and several London bus routes are now being converted to electric only. Many Chinese cities are already using electric busses as the norm (nearly 20% of all bus routes in China are electric now).

The main issue with hydrogen is the inefficiency - it's far more efficient to put electricity straight into a battery that powers a motor, than to use the same electricity to create hydrogen and then to burn that hydrogen in an engine. We already need a very large increase in electrical generation capacity to provide the power for electric vehicles. If we went to hydrogen, then we would need to increase generation significantly more.

I personally suspect in the long-run, we may convert enough other vehicles to electric for there to be enough biofuels to continue to run the remaining vehicles (like tractors or lorries travelling through remote areas) solely on that, and hydrogen (which is more expensive and difficult to store) will be unnecessary.

But back to the original point, I think they have thought it through - the fleet manager at my organisation (who is one of the most progressive in the field) is of the opinion that all-electric is the way forward in most cases. IMO the breakthrough will not be mass conversion to hydrogen, but a new form of battery that will enable far greater storage and rapid charging (and probably fewer if any rare earth metals)
[Post edited 7 Dec 2019 10:30]
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Electric buses on 10:33 - Dec 7 with 557 viewsLord_Lucan

Electric buses on 08:35 - Dec 7 by EdwardStone

Spot on analysis Mr H.....the whole rechargeable electric vehicle groove is a flash in the pan, an interesting diversion much like the rotary aero-engine of 100 years ago

Hydrogen is the only viable way forward but it does require someone to make a huge commitment to provide the refuelling infrastructure. Sadly, I fear that the provision of recharging points will be seen as a higher priority and therefore most resources will be thrown at these rather than grasping the nettle and going flat out for hydrogen

The first UK hydrogen cars should be on the streets of Abergavenny sometime in the next year or so....a tiny timid step into the future at the time when we should be taking confident giant strides


Are electric cars the new Squarial?

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Electric buses on 10:42 - Dec 7 with 547 viewseireblue

Let’s use a little bit of logical extrapolation.

I believe your are a fan.

“What if they are obsolete after just a few years”

Under what circumstances would electrical vehicles be obsolete in a few years?

In a few years you are suggesting that an alternative will exist, such that all electrical vehicles would be obsolete. The country will have a full network of hydrogen charging stations, in a few years, that are more convenient than using, the existing electrical network.

Also that new technology would need to be so superior, it would make sense to have existing technology marked as obsolete. As an example, Petrol cars are not yet obsolete. No one is talking about ditching petrol stations. But you think in a few years there will be a technology that exists such that everyone will ditch electrical charging stations, as an example.

Seems to me, in your keenness to express your dislike of Labour, you have lost your ability to think rationally.

Not sure that someone that lets emotion affect rational and logical extrapolation can reach trustworthy conclusions.
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Electric buses on 11:03 - Dec 7 with 530 viewsEdwardStone

Electric buses on 10:33 - Dec 7 by Lord_Lucan

Are electric cars the new Squarial?


Top o' the morning to you MiLord

I suppose....squariel, 8 track, Betamax, Phillips 2000 (?) all those bits of super new tech that were good, a big step forward but never actually hit the bullseye on the target they were aiming for
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