| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:27 - Nov 29 with 2313 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 00:30 - Nov 29 by bluelagos |
Cheers for the supportive comments guys.
I won't be commenting much other than to say that imho our justice system is a joke. But then I think we all knew that anyway. 96 dead and the only conviction is of a civilian. Establishment protecting their own, just as they always do. |
The system has let you down, but one thing that I think your campaign has achieved is that things would be dealt with differently where it to happen today.
...well, we can hope it would.
I think the campaign has delivered justice in the eyes of the public. Thats probably not a huge consolation though. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:27 - Nov 29 with 2310 views | Dyland |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:26 - Nov 29 by rickw |
I've never been comfortable with people looking to blame this solely on 1 person, this happened due to a combination of lots of decisions, and only occurred due to them all being made.
It's partly due to the way stadiums were at the time, with no seats and large fences due to past crowd trouble (nationwide)
It's partly down to the person who put Duckenfield in charge of this match despite him being in-experienced
It's partly down to Duckenfield's poor decisions
It's also partly down to the thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket. Individually they didn't cause it, but if none of them did it wouldn't have happened. |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:31 - Nov 29 with 2308 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 09:37 - Nov 29 by bluelagos |
Given what you have previously said to me (namely that the disaster was an accident) and your lack of knockledge on the working of the Iopc, Resolve, WMP and how the evidence was collated, presented, prosecuted etc I'll store your comments in the 'ignorance is bliss' category.
You want to think justice has been served that's your perogative. I dont nor do any of the dozens of fellow campaigners, survivors and family members I know.
But eh, keep faith in our justice system, I just. hope you don't ever have to rely on it...
Edit: Happy that I got the wrong end of the stick on this one. Will leave it up my reply rather than edit it - as any subsequent posts wouldn't make sense. Apologies. [Post edited 29 Nov 2019 12:16]
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No BL I don’t think justice has been served. The families have been badly let down. My point is that there were widespread failings, A police investigation recommended fairly widespread prosecutions. They should have happened and happened in a reasonable time frame.
I do believe that, along with others, Duckenfield should have been prosecuted however I do not believe that only prosecuting Duckenfield some 30 years later really serves justice either.
I despair that the same mistakes are being made today over Grenfel. If this case gets dragged out and dragged out ending in the prosecution of one or two sacrificial lambs we will have learnt nothing. Our legal process, and system for dealing with such charges, needs fundamental change.
I realize that this is a very sensitive subject for those of you close to the case. Sorry if my observations upset you. |  | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:42 - Nov 29 with 2278 views | Radlett_blue |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:27 - Nov 29 by Marshalls_Mullet |
The system has let you down, but one thing that I think your campaign has achieved is that things would be dealt with differently where it to happen today.
...well, we can hope it would.
I think the campaign has delivered justice in the eyes of the public. Thats probably not a huge consolation though. |
The new inquest delivered the right verdict, 30 years too late unfortunately. The problem was that some of the bereaved also wanted a sacrificial lamb & the inept Duckenfield was the obvious choice, although the reality is that the deaths were a result of incompetence by South Yorkshire Police, the FA & Sheffield Wednesday to varying degrees. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:51 - Nov 29 with 2270 views | charlie1 |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:18 - Nov 29 by ITFC_Forever |
Missed so many points, it's hard to know where to start.
The number of people in the Leppings Lane terrace was in-line with the number of tickets sold.
However, the number of tickets sold was based on a capacity that assumes equal distribution across all the enclosures on that terrace. But it was a very uneven distribution, because when the gates were opened, the vast majority went straight down the tunnel to the already over-full central areas, and not to the sides where there was plenty of space.
The fact that no thought was given to where the fans would go once the gate was opened was fatal. Duckenfield then lied about why the gate was opened - he said (while fans were injured, dying and dead literally before his very eyes), to the FA's Graham Kelly that the fans forced a gate.
He is a liar and a coward. |
Liar. Yes
Coward. Yes
But neither of those constitutes an element of the offence of Manslaughter.
He would certainly have been convicted if it were shown that he deliberately let thousands of drunk, aggressive, ticketless fans into the ground as he would clearly have made a conscious decision to allow many more people into the end than it was designed to hold. And behaving in a manner that should have precluded their entry, with or without a ticket.
The findings of the inquest in relation to fan presence and conduct meant it was never going to be possible to lay the blame on a single individual I’m afraid. |  | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:07 - Nov 29 with 2258 views | itfcjoe |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:26 - Nov 29 by rickw |
I've never been comfortable with people looking to blame this solely on 1 person, this happened due to a combination of lots of decisions, and only occurred due to them all being made.
It's partly due to the way stadiums were at the time, with no seats and large fences due to past crowd trouble (nationwide)
It's partly down to the person who put Duckenfield in charge of this match despite him being in-experienced
It's partly down to Duckenfield's poor decisions
It's also partly down to the thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket. Individually they didn't cause it, but if none of them did it wouldn't have happened. |
"It's also partly down to the thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket."
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are misinformed rather than ignorant - go and read up about why this happened. Clue - it wasn't ticketless fans |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:08 - Nov 29 with 2258 views | bluelagos |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:26 - Nov 29 by rickw |
I've never been comfortable with people looking to blame this solely on 1 person, this happened due to a combination of lots of decisions, and only occurred due to them all being made.
It's partly due to the way stadiums were at the time, with no seats and large fences due to past crowd trouble (nationwide)
It's partly down to the person who put Duckenfield in charge of this match despite him being in-experienced
It's partly down to Duckenfield's poor decisions
It's also partly down to the thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket. Individually they didn't cause it, but if none of them did it wouldn't have happened. |
That final comment is factually incorrect bollox.
If you choose to repeat the discredited lies of the SYP that's your business. But I'd much prefer if you educated yourself. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:09 - Nov 29 with 2243 views | bluelagos |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:31 - Nov 29 by Crawfordsboot |
No BL I don’t think justice has been served. The families have been badly let down. My point is that there were widespread failings, A police investigation recommended fairly widespread prosecutions. They should have happened and happened in a reasonable time frame.
I do believe that, along with others, Duckenfield should have been prosecuted however I do not believe that only prosecuting Duckenfield some 30 years later really serves justice either.
I despair that the same mistakes are being made today over Grenfel. If this case gets dragged out and dragged out ending in the prosecution of one or two sacrificial lambs we will have learnt nothing. Our legal process, and system for dealing with such charges, needs fundamental change.
I realize that this is a very sensitive subject for those of you close to the case. Sorry if my observations upset you. |
Agree with all of that. | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:23 - Nov 29 with 2219 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:51 - Nov 29 by charlie1 |
Liar. Yes
Coward. Yes
But neither of those constitutes an element of the offence of Manslaughter.
He would certainly have been convicted if it were shown that he deliberately let thousands of drunk, aggressive, ticketless fans into the ground as he would clearly have made a conscious decision to allow many more people into the end than it was designed to hold. And behaving in a manner that should have precluded their entry, with or without a ticket.
The findings of the inquest in relation to fan presence and conduct meant it was never going to be possible to lay the blame on a single individual I’m afraid. |
" thousands of drunk, aggressive, ticketless fans" - simply not true, as has been repeatedly stated and proven. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:24 - Nov 29 with 2218 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:26 - Nov 29 by rickw |
I've never been comfortable with people looking to blame this solely on 1 person, this happened due to a combination of lots of decisions, and only occurred due to them all being made.
It's partly due to the way stadiums were at the time, with no seats and large fences due to past crowd trouble (nationwide)
It's partly down to the person who put Duckenfield in charge of this match despite him being in-experienced
It's partly down to Duckenfield's poor decisions
It's also partly down to the thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket. Individually they didn't cause it, but if none of them did it wouldn't have happened. |
" thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket." - Simply not true, as has been frequently stated and proven. | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:28 - Nov 29 with 2217 views | bluelagos |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:24 - Nov 29 by ITFC_Forever |
" thousands of fans who pushed their way into the match without a ticket." - Simply not true, as has been frequently stated and proven. |
There will always be ignorant morons. That's the price for the lies of the SYP and those who repeated them, for years. (Including quite a few on here) | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:42 - Nov 29 with 2167 views | textbackup |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:28 - Nov 29 by bluelagos |
There will always be ignorant morons. That's the price for the lies of the SYP and those who repeated them, for years. (Including quite a few on here) |
Without meaning to sound uneducated on this, but may I ask, how do they know 100% that everything going through them gates causing the crush had tickets?
Have they traced every one on cctv etc over the years?
Genuinely interested to know |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:52 - Nov 29 with 2160 views | itfcjoe |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:42 - Nov 29 by textbackup |
Without meaning to sound uneducated on this, but may I ask, how do they know 100% that everything going through them gates causing the crush had tickets?
Have they traced every one on cctv etc over the years?
Genuinely interested to know |
They don't, and they accept that there were some without tickets who were bunking in - but the stand never reached full capacity of tickets sold so however many there were without tickets it shouldn't have been a dangerous amount. | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:54 - Nov 29 with 2155 views | textbackup |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:52 - Nov 29 by itfcjoe |
They don't, and they accept that there were some without tickets who were bunking in - but the stand never reached full capacity of tickets sold so however many there were without tickets it shouldn't have been a dangerous amount. |
Ah right, and that’s from the pen doors not being opened or people directed other ways... gotcha | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 14:08 - Nov 29 with 2138 views | itfcjoe |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:54 - Nov 29 by textbackup |
Ah right, and that’s from the pen doors not being opened or people directed other ways... gotcha |
Yeah, basically there were only 5 turnstiles working, and if they were going at full pelt it would still have taken 2 hours to get all the fans in the ground, which means you need a steady stream of fans arriving from 1pm which just doesn't happen.
As so many outside they open the gate but don't direct people to the side pens which are tucked around the corners so everyone goes through the most obvious entrance right in front of them - but that area is full, but you don't realise that until you are in there as is a long tunnel.
Massive failings from the police who then subsequently lied and lied about it - claiming fans broke the gate open etc, which wasn't the case | |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 14:08 - Nov 29 with 2142 views | PhilTWTD |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 13:54 - Nov 29 by textbackup |
Ah right, and that’s from the pen doors not being opened or people directed other ways... gotcha |
Worth adding to that that the Liverpool end hadn't sold out in any case, tickets had still been on sale the previous day. |  | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 14:09 - Nov 29 with 2134 views | PhilTWTD |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 14:08 - Nov 29 by itfcjoe |
Yeah, basically there were only 5 turnstiles working, and if they were going at full pelt it would still have taken 2 hours to get all the fans in the ground, which means you need a steady stream of fans arriving from 1pm which just doesn't happen.
As so many outside they open the gate but don't direct people to the side pens which are tucked around the corners so everyone goes through the most obvious entrance right in front of them - but that area is full, but you don't realise that until you are in there as is a long tunnel.
Massive failings from the police who then subsequently lied and lied about it - claiming fans broke the gate open etc, which wasn't the case |
There were also other issues which made large numbers of fans turn up late such as roadworks on the main road on the way from Liverpool which hadn't been adequately flagged. | | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 17:48 - Nov 29 with 2061 views | charlie1 |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 12:23 - Nov 29 by ITFC_Forever |
" thousands of drunk, aggressive, ticketless fans" - simply not true, as has been repeatedly stated and proven. |
Read my comment again. I haven’t said it was true.
I said that IF it were true that the fans were drunk, ticketless etc. (as per his original assertions - lies) Duckenfield would undoubtedly have been convicted as they would have been the type of fans the police are tasked with keeping out of football every single week.
I go on to say that the proven fact they were NOT (drunk, ticketless) means that it’s impossible to prove that he was negligent in allowing them entry to the burden required for criminal proof. | | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 17:57 - Nov 29 with 2052 views | jeera |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 17:48 - Nov 29 by charlie1 |
Read my comment again. I haven’t said it was true.
I said that IF it were true that the fans were drunk, ticketless etc. (as per his original assertions - lies) Duckenfield would undoubtedly have been convicted as they would have been the type of fans the police are tasked with keeping out of football every single week.
I go on to say that the proven fact they were NOT (drunk, ticketless) means that it’s impossible to prove that he was negligent in allowing them entry to the burden required for criminal proof. |
He has already since admitted himself that the original statements weren't true. There are no IFs.
They don't need repeating, nor suggesting in any form. That's all been done and dusted.
He, (Duckenfield) has himself said everything was wrong.
The rest doesn't need revisiting. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 18:28 - Nov 29 with 2013 views | vapour_trail |
As one of the family members who spoke after the verdict yesterday said, and I’ll paraphrase, if 96 police officers had been killed that day, there’s no fooking way we’d still be looking for justice today. |  |
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| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 19:45 - Nov 29 with 1956 views | Oxford_Blue |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 11:51 - Nov 29 by charlie1 |
Liar. Yes
Coward. Yes
But neither of those constitutes an element of the offence of Manslaughter.
He would certainly have been convicted if it were shown that he deliberately let thousands of drunk, aggressive, ticketless fans into the ground as he would clearly have made a conscious decision to allow many more people into the end than it was designed to hold. And behaving in a manner that should have precluded their entry, with or without a ticket.
The findings of the inquest in relation to fan presence and conduct meant it was never going to be possible to lay the blame on a single individual I’m afraid. |
That’s the point. | | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 21:20 - Nov 29 with 1924 views | m14_blue |
The front page of the S*n today is breathtaking.
They’ve got to be taking the p1ss surely? | | | |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 21:27 - Nov 29 with 1919 views | vapour_trail |
| Duckenfield not guilty.... on 21:20 - Nov 29 by m14_blue |
The front page of the S*n today is breathtaking.
They’ve got to be taking the p1ss surely? |
Johnsonesque. | |
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