| Rooney rule 16:26 - May 22 with 6855 views | GeoffSentence |
Who do you reckon were the black candidates ME interviewed? I wonder if Sol Campbell got a hearing. |  |
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| Rooney rule on 20:47 - May 22 with 1639 views | HennikerBlu |
| Rooney rule on 20:32 - May 22 by tcblue |
It's still not relevant here though. |
How is it not relevant? |  | | |
| Rooney rule on 20:49 - May 22 with 1635 views | tcblue |
| Rooney rule on 20:37 - May 22 by HennikerBlu |
Good post. I have watched few American documentaries/news items on this and it has been considered very positive and a success. I think we tend to forget that racism (even in glass ceiling terms) is still a significant problem in the States.
It should also be considered that the percentage of black players as a mix is much greater than we see in sports in the UK, Off the top of my head I wouldn't be surprised if it is as much as 50%+ in American football.
Hence, understandably, the very poor black representation with coaches became an issue. |
Sure, a couple of points on this that I want to pick up:
1) I agree that racism is a bigger issue in the US largely than the UK. However, Rooney wasn't implemented there (or, by extension, here) to only tackle conscious bias.
2) I also agree that it feels like there's more percentage of black athletes in (say) an NFL team than football squad. However, looking at the list I make just over 50% of the England World Cup squad non-white. Should that correlate forwards in ten or twenty years as half the English managers being non-white? Dunno. It probably won't, but we should at least hope that anything we do now motivates the best potential candidates to consider a career in top level coaching - regardless of their background. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 20:51 - May 22 with 1629 views | tcblue |
| Rooney rule on 20:47 - May 22 by HennikerBlu |
How is it not relevant? |
Because that's talking about entertainment awards which are segregated. We are discussing what should be a sporting meritocracy based on potential, and why that may or may not be happening. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 20:55 - May 22 with 1629 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
An interesting thread.
Whether or not the Rooney rule works or is a step in the right direction, why do people think the percentages of BME football players over the past couple of decades is so different to those of managers?
There are likely to be many reasons but I suspect life prospects in management are somewhat easier for Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard than Patrick Viera and Sol Campbell.
I am glad for Darren Moore and really hope he does well.
The sentiments that a person's skin colour should make no difference are right but something does not entirely add up. |  |
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| Rooney rule on 20:57 - May 22 with 1624 views | HennikerBlu |
| Rooney rule on 20:49 - May 22 by tcblue |
Sure, a couple of points on this that I want to pick up:
1) I agree that racism is a bigger issue in the US largely than the UK. However, Rooney wasn't implemented there (or, by extension, here) to only tackle conscious bias.
2) I also agree that it feels like there's more percentage of black athletes in (say) an NFL team than football squad. However, looking at the list I make just over 50% of the England World Cup squad non-white. Should that correlate forwards in ten or twenty years as half the English managers being non-white? Dunno. It probably won't, but we should at least hope that anything we do now motivates the best potential candidates to consider a career in top level coaching - regardless of their background. |
My ' even in glass ceiling terms' was a deliberate reference to unconscious bias.
Yes I thought as I wrote it about the England squad (at all levels) and think this will be an interesting development and hope that they will be encouraged to enter into other aspects of football, ultimately all everyone wants is a fair chance and to succeed on 'merit'. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 21:04 - May 22 with 1605 views | HennikerBlu |
| Rooney rule on 20:51 - May 22 by tcblue |
Because that's talking about entertainment awards which are segregated. We are discussing what should be a sporting meritocracy based on potential, and why that may or may not be happening. |
Er....I was referring/adding to your reply regarding the black comedian. I did not take the thread off at a tangent. I am happy to stay on post if others will. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 21:06 - May 22 with 1602 views | tcblue |
| Rooney rule on 20:57 - May 22 by HennikerBlu |
My ' even in glass ceiling terms' was a deliberate reference to unconscious bias.
Yes I thought as I wrote it about the England squad (at all levels) and think this will be an interesting development and hope that they will be encouraged to enter into other aspects of football, ultimately all everyone wants is a fair chance and to succeed on 'merit'. |
It'll be interesting to see how it works. There's unpalatable things in the start of this journey - mostly for the early coaches who will get the "you only got the job because of quotas" comments from the conscious lot. But it's something which ought to serve the greater good.
Which is, of course, the end game where Nydam hangs up his boots after captaining Town to our fifth successive Champions League trophy and becomes the greatest manager of all time. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 21:09 - May 22 with 1599 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Rooney rule on 16:55 - May 22 by textbackup |
Huge success?
‘Here mate youre black I’ll interview you, oh but by the way you are about 45th on our list of those better qialified’ |
"Better qualified".
Could you explain why Lampard (who definitely got a second interview) is better qualified than:
Terry Connor, Jason Roberts, Hasselbaink, Keith Curle or John Salako?
Now don't get me wrong - I am not saying I want any of those as manager but if you are talking "better qualified" convince me. | |
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| Rooney rule on 21:09 - May 22 with 1595 views | HennikerBlu |
| Rooney rule on 21:06 - May 22 by tcblue |
It'll be interesting to see how it works. There's unpalatable things in the start of this journey - mostly for the early coaches who will get the "you only got the job because of quotas" comments from the conscious lot. But it's something which ought to serve the greater good.
Which is, of course, the end game where Nydam hangs up his boots after captaining Town to our fifth successive Champions League trophy and becomes the greatest manager of all time. |
Agree!
Hopefully I will see at least one of those  | | | |
| Rooney rule on 21:14 - May 22 with 1589 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Rooney rule on 21:06 - May 22 by tcblue |
It'll be interesting to see how it works. There's unpalatable things in the start of this journey - mostly for the early coaches who will get the "you only got the job because of quotas" comments from the conscious lot. But it's something which ought to serve the greater good.
Which is, of course, the end game where Nydam hangs up his boots after captaining Town to our fifth successive Champions League trophy and becomes the greatest manager of all time. |
I doubt that accusation will be that much bother to those ex-players who have grown up with the terrace abuse they have suffered due to the colour of their skin.
Some will be given a chance and prove a success, others and fail … just like white managers. I wonder if as many will repeatedly fail and walk into another job as white ones. | |
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| Rooney rule on 22:04 - May 22 with 1576 views | Currie10 |
You don't seem to understand it's insulting and going to do the opposite as what's it's set out to do.
Lets say we invite Paul Ince for an interview.
Could be like a sketch off the Ali G show for heavens sake.
It's absolute madness.
Interview 28 white people 44 black and 33 of other races by all means.
Just pick the BEST candidate for the ruddy job. [Post edited 22 May 2018 22:05]
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| Rooney rule on 22:07 - May 22 with 1574 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Rooney rule on 22:04 - May 22 by Currie10 |
You don't seem to understand it's insulting and going to do the opposite as what's it's set out to do.
Lets say we invite Paul Ince for an interview.
Could be like a sketch off the Ali G show for heavens sake.
It's absolute madness.
Interview 28 white people 44 black and 33 of other races by all means.
Just pick the BEST candidate for the ruddy job. [Post edited 22 May 2018 22:05]
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"insulting"? Are you talking from personal experience? I think there may be some who might feel that way but I don't know.
"Do the opposite …" so you think ensuring someone gets an interview will actually mean they are less likely to get the job? I don't follow that logic at all.
How successful it is and whether there are better ways of doing the same thing I don't know but I cannot see how it can be counter-productive as you seem to suggest. | |
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| Rooney rule on 22:23 - May 22 with 1565 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rooney rule on 22:04 - May 22 by Currie10 |
You don't seem to understand it's insulting and going to do the opposite as what's it's set out to do.
Lets say we invite Paul Ince for an interview.
Could be like a sketch off the Ali G show for heavens sake.
It's absolute madness.
Interview 28 white people 44 black and 33 of other races by all means.
Just pick the BEST candidate for the ruddy job. [Post edited 22 May 2018 22:05]
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Your mistake is thinking all this is about conscious racism and trying to redress the balance like positive discrimination back in the day. It may have that effect on those who are racist (that's good but I don't believe there are that many) but it's the wider effect on subconscious bias that's the real goal.
The root problem is that subconsciously we tend to gravitate towards managers who LOOK like managers normally look. It's human nature but if the vast majority of managers are white then that will be repeated whether they're onjectively the best candidates or not.
That's the same for women who are judged incapable of playing wind instruments in orchestras and who supposedly sound "wrong" despite the fact they can be the best at blind auditions behind a screen. Our brains trick us to go with the expected choice. |  |
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| Rooney rule on 22:29 - May 22 with 1558 views | Trequartista |
I keep changing my mind over whether i approve of the Rooney rule. On one hand, if something is unbalanced, then having this rule until it balances is a good idea. But then i think, if the supply is not there, then artificially creating it is counter-productive. Is it unbalanced because chairman are subliminally racist? I doubt it, they would hire a pink unicorn if it meant wealth and success. And look at the England squad. Over 50% of the outfield players are BAME. There are not >50% BAME people in the country. Do we need a Wayne Rooney rule to encourage more white players who resemble shrek to improve their skills?
So i think on balance i'm against it in this example, but there could be examples in life where positive discrimination is helpful. |  |
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| Rooney rule on 22:32 - May 22 with 1547 views | Trequartista |
| Rooney rule on 22:07 - May 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"insulting"? Are you talking from personal experience? I think there may be some who might feel that way but I don't know.
"Do the opposite …" so you think ensuring someone gets an interview will actually mean they are less likely to get the job? I don't follow that logic at all.
How successful it is and whether there are better ways of doing the same thing I don't know but I cannot see how it can be counter-productive as you seem to suggest. |
I get the feeling Patrick Vieira being insulted by Arsenal's token gesture management vacancy enquiry phone call to him fits into this category | |
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| Rooney rule on 22:35 - May 22 with 1546 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rooney rule on 22:29 - May 22 by Trequartista |
I keep changing my mind over whether i approve of the Rooney rule. On one hand, if something is unbalanced, then having this rule until it balances is a good idea. But then i think, if the supply is not there, then artificially creating it is counter-productive. Is it unbalanced because chairman are subliminally racist? I doubt it, they would hire a pink unicorn if it meant wealth and success. And look at the England squad. Over 50% of the outfield players are BAME. There are not >50% BAME people in the country. Do we need a Wayne Rooney rule to encourage more white players who resemble shrek to improve their skills?
So i think on balance i'm against it in this example, but there could be examples in life where positive discrimination is helpful. |
It's not a case of racism subliminally (?) or subconsciously.
That's missing the point. It's about biases we're unaware of that are based on what we're used to seeing. Used to seeing white managers? You're that much more likely to choose a white manager.
Nothing racist about it at all. But at least the Rooney Rule breaks that unconscious circuit and helps you choose the best manager on objective merits. | |
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| Rooney rule on 10:27 - May 23 with 1465 views | Currie10 |
| Rooney rule on 22:35 - May 22 by Darth_Koont |
It's not a case of racism subliminally (?) or subconsciously.
That's missing the point. It's about biases we're unaware of that are based on what we're used to seeing. Used to seeing white managers? You're that much more likely to choose a white manager.
Nothing racist about it at all. But at least the Rooney Rule breaks that unconscious circuit and helps you choose the best manager on objective merits. |
REALLY?
Let me get this straight.
I'm a chairman, and I'm USED to seeing simply white managers.
So a chairman of say Everton - looking for a new manager wouldn't consider Chris Hughton because they aren't used to seeing BAME managers succeed ?
What an absolute load of rubbish.
You're essentially saying chairman wouldn't consider Chris Hughton for a higher job because they aren't used to seeing BAME managers achieve.
You can't make rubbish like this up. Gold. The worlds gone mad. | | | |
| Rooney rule on 10:30 - May 23 with 1458 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rooney rule on 10:27 - May 23 by Currie10 |
REALLY?
Let me get this straight.
I'm a chairman, and I'm USED to seeing simply white managers.
So a chairman of say Everton - looking for a new manager wouldn't consider Chris Hughton because they aren't used to seeing BAME managers succeed ?
What an absolute load of rubbish.
You're essentially saying chairman wouldn't consider Chris Hughton for a higher job because they aren't used to seeing BAME managers achieve.
You can't make rubbish like this up. Gold. The worlds gone mad. |
You can lead a horse to water ...
Never mind. Don't worry yourself about it. | |
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| Rooney rule on 11:19 - May 23 with 1439 views | tcblue |
| Rooney rule on 10:30 - May 23 by Darth_Koont |
You can lead a horse to water ...
Never mind. Don't worry yourself about it. |
I really kicked myself, yesterday when this thread was on the first page I knew that all I was waiting for on my cliché bingo card was 'Paul Ince' and I thought about posting that so that when he was mentioned I could call house and be regarded as some sort of clairvoyant pessimist.
Ah well. Next time. | | | |
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