| FFP and owner cash injections 10:49 - Sep 1 with 1779 views | Markp68 |
I’m not ashamed to admit that FFP confused me somewhat. We are all well aware that our owners have plenty of cash so can we not get around FFP with a cash injection from them? This has probably been explained before but I clearly missed it |  | | |  |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:52 - Sep 1 with 1726 views | tractorboy1978 |
No - you can in L1 under SCMP but not in the Championship. You are allowed to make up to £39m of losses over a three year period with certain costs being exempt. Owner investment has no bearing. [Post edited 1 Sep 2023 10:52]
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:54 - Sep 1 with 1685 views | burnbudgiesburn |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:52 - Sep 1 by tractorboy1978 |
No - you can in L1 under SCMP but not in the Championship. You are allowed to make up to £39m of losses over a three year period with certain costs being exempt. Owner investment has no bearing. [Post edited 1 Sep 2023 10:52]
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And to put this in perspective we lost 14m last year alone. We may be tighter to the FFP limit already than some realise. | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:54 - Sep 1 with 1682 views | _clive_baker_ |
Below the Championship that's possible, owners can effectively inject funds that then go towards the revenue element of the calculation. It makes sense as a rule, to ensure the funds are there prior to taking on the long term liabilities and giving the club the best chance of remaining sustainable (no guarantee of course).
PL and Championship level doesn't have this option. There's more nuanced ways around it like owners buying the sponsorship at inflated prices, but there's also regulation around that and any such commercial deals should, in theory, be at market values. This is more difficult to establish though and I'm sure the boundaries are stretched a little.
For us though there aren't many levers. We've got revenues that largely come from TV money and ticketing, plus commercial activities and retail etc. We have to operate within that, which when you're up against clubs with parachute money and players they can sell for serious cash like Maddison from Leicester, Lavia and Ward-Prowse who Southampton sold for a combined nearly £100m etc we don't have the wiggle room they do, even if the owners wanted to. |  | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:57 - Sep 1 with 1622 views | BABLUE |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:54 - Sep 1 by _clive_baker_ |
Below the Championship that's possible, owners can effectively inject funds that then go towards the revenue element of the calculation. It makes sense as a rule, to ensure the funds are there prior to taking on the long term liabilities and giving the club the best chance of remaining sustainable (no guarantee of course).
PL and Championship level doesn't have this option. There's more nuanced ways around it like owners buying the sponsorship at inflated prices, but there's also regulation around that and any such commercial deals should, in theory, be at market values. This is more difficult to establish though and I'm sure the boundaries are stretched a little.
For us though there aren't many levers. We've got revenues that largely come from TV money and ticketing, plus commercial activities and retail etc. We have to operate within that, which when you're up against clubs with parachute money and players they can sell for serious cash like Maddison from Leicester, Lavia and Ward-Prowse who Southampton sold for a combined nearly £100m etc we don't have the wiggle room they do, even if the owners wanted to. |
The Coventry model is the one, selling players for circa £15m gives them wriggle room to spend more money.
It only works if the new players improve the team though |  | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:03 - Sep 1 with 1558 views | RYITFC |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:54 - Sep 1 by burnbudgiesburn |
And to put this in perspective we lost 14m last year alone. We may be tighter to the FFP limit already than some realise. |
That's true & i think you are probably right about us being not too far away from FFP limits but would like to think our revenue should increase quite significantly this year with much higher revenue from Broadcasting rights for being in the championship. Also gate receipts will increase vs last year. |  |
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:03 - Sep 1 with 1554 views | _clive_baker_ |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:57 - Sep 1 by BABLUE |
The Coventry model is the one, selling players for circa £15m gives them wriggle room to spend more money.
It only works if the new players improve the team though |
It's the dream. Finding players that cost £1m and you can sell on for £15m is the hard bit. And then replacing said £15m player for a fraction of the cost with a player that won't leave you worse off on the pitch. If they were readily available then you wouldn't ever be selling anyone for £15m as there wouldn't be a market for them.
Arguably we've done it with Davis to a degree, especially if he keeps up this start to the season, he's one that is certainly worth a lot more than we paid.
We have a very obvious strategy of young, with a high ceiling which KM and his team can help them realise. Trouble is everyone wants the same and they're hard to find. | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:04 - Sep 1 with 1549 views | NthQldITFC |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:57 - Sep 1 by BABLUE |
The Coventry model is the one, selling players for circa £15m gives them wriggle room to spend more money.
It only works if the new players improve the team though |
I guess that's where we'll be next season, or even in January this season.
I've got a lot of faith that this management group are perfectly attuned to make a success of this strategy that I have absolutely no concerns about what else we do in this window, so long as we don't lose anybody crucial without replacing them like-for-like. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:07 - Sep 1 with 1519 views | _clive_baker_ |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 10:54 - Sep 1 by burnbudgiesburn |
And to put this in perspective we lost 14m last year alone. We may be tighter to the FFP limit already than some realise. |
Worth noting that our TV income is likely going to be £7m higher this season, I'm pretty sure it jumps from about £1m to £8m from L1 to Championship, as well as ticket sales being up due to bigger crowds and at higher prices. So all other things being equal we could feasibly halve that loss.
All other things won't be equal though, I'm sure there's promotion related salary rises across a lot of the squad that have kicked in, and the new additions are likely on more than the departures. Despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose less this year than we did last. | | | |
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:17 - Sep 1 with 1440 views | BABLUE |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:07 - Sep 1 by _clive_baker_ |
Worth noting that our TV income is likely going to be £7m higher this season, I'm pretty sure it jumps from about £1m to £8m from L1 to Championship, as well as ticket sales being up due to bigger crowds and at higher prices. So all other things being equal we could feasibly halve that loss.
All other things won't be equal though, I'm sure there's promotion related salary rises across a lot of the squad that have kicked in, and the new additions are likely on more than the departures. Despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose less this year than we did last. |
The attendances last year were very high, so the extra ticket revenue won’t be as much as you might think.
We also sold loads of shirt’s last year with the black kit being popular.
The club are doing their best to increase revenue I’m sure, but as has been said before, wage increases will probably swallow up most of that.
The signings made in the last 2 years look even more amazing value when you see the sums quoted for players like Cannon, Simms etc | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:20 - Sep 1 with 1425 views | burnbudgiesburn |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:07 - Sep 1 by _clive_baker_ |
Worth noting that our TV income is likely going to be £7m higher this season, I'm pretty sure it jumps from about £1m to £8m from L1 to Championship, as well as ticket sales being up due to bigger crowds and at higher prices. So all other things being equal we could feasibly halve that loss.
All other things won't be equal though, I'm sure there's promotion related salary rises across a lot of the squad that have kicked in, and the new additions are likely on more than the departures. Despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose less this year than we did last. |
Yes, i'm sure we do have some leeway for signings in the £1-2m mould due to the reasons you mentioned.
Links to Adam Armstrong for £8m have always been fantasty to me*
(*watch Armstrong announced 9pm now!) | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:25 - Sep 1 with 1362 views | tractordownsouth |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:17 - Sep 1 by BABLUE |
The attendances last year were very high, so the extra ticket revenue won’t be as much as you might think.
We also sold loads of shirt’s last year with the black kit being popular.
The club are doing their best to increase revenue I’m sure, but as has been said before, wage increases will probably swallow up most of that.
The signings made in the last 2 years look even more amazing value when you see the sums quoted for players like Cannon, Simms etc |
The accounts for last year aren’t out yet. The figures quoted are from 2021/22 so our matchday income will have increased. I expect we made a bigger loss on transfer fees last season than the one before though. |  |
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:48 - Sep 1 with 1262 views | xrayspecs |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:03 - Sep 1 by RYITFC |
That's true & i think you are probably right about us being not too far away from FFP limits but would like to think our revenue should increase quite significantly this year with much higher revenue from Broadcasting rights for being in the championship. Also gate receipts will increase vs last year. |
We lost £12m in 2020/21 season, of which around £9-10m counts toward FFP.
We have not seen last seasons accounts, but we will have lost at least a similar amount given the upgrade to the squad (fees and wages).
We come into this season with around £10m extra revenue, but a higher cost base (new contracts and promotion related pay rises) and have again paid transfer fees.
Most clubs who can afford to will spend up to the £39m lthree year loss imit and I see us being no different. That we have dropped interest in players when the price went beyond £2m is quite telling and gives us an idea of how much we can spend and stay within FFP. | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:52 - Sep 1 with 1238 views | Swansea_Blue |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:03 - Sep 1 by _clive_baker_ |
It's the dream. Finding players that cost £1m and you can sell on for £15m is the hard bit. And then replacing said £15m player for a fraction of the cost with a player that won't leave you worse off on the pitch. If they were readily available then you wouldn't ever be selling anyone for £15m as there wouldn't be a market for them.
Arguably we've done it with Davis to a degree, especially if he keeps up this start to the season, he's one that is certainly worth a lot more than we paid.
We have a very obvious strategy of young, with a high ceiling which KM and his team can help them realise. Trouble is everyone wants the same and they're hard to find. |
Yes, we almost needed to sell Davis this window to allow us to be a bit more ambitious. But that's the accounting view; obviously weas fans want to see players like him stay and help propel us up the league.
Who'd be a football club owner/leader, eh? |  |
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| FFP and owner cash injections on 12:01 - Sep 1 with 1190 views | _clive_baker_ |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 11:17 - Sep 1 by BABLUE |
The attendances last year were very high, so the extra ticket revenue won’t be as much as you might think.
We also sold loads of shirt’s last year with the black kit being popular.
The club are doing their best to increase revenue I’m sure, but as has been said before, wage increases will probably swallow up most of that.
The signings made in the last 2 years look even more amazing value when you see the sums quoted for players like Cannon, Simms etc |
I think the average attendance this season will be higher than last, but in the grand scheme of things we're not talking material amounts. Cup run / draws will play a part in that too, if we get a big away tie that'll swell the coffers. Maybe playoff games as well, who knows. Re. shirt sales, like you say last years were unprecedented and I wouldn't be surprised if we sell a few less this time around, but when the margins are so low on them they won't move the needle.
If I had to take a guess I would say revenues will be about £8m up, largely from TV money. Costs probably up to the extent that they gobble up half of that increase.
I think we'll lose somewhere in the region of £10m by way of an Operating loss, but it's guess work really. We have shifted a lot of players on, none I'm sure on silly money but they add up and will certainly help fund the arrivals. | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 12:48 - Sep 1 with 1051 views | xrayspecs |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 12:01 - Sep 1 by _clive_baker_ |
I think the average attendance this season will be higher than last, but in the grand scheme of things we're not talking material amounts. Cup run / draws will play a part in that too, if we get a big away tie that'll swell the coffers. Maybe playoff games as well, who knows. Re. shirt sales, like you say last years were unprecedented and I wouldn't be surprised if we sell a few less this time around, but when the margins are so low on them they won't move the needle.
If I had to take a guess I would say revenues will be about £8m up, largely from TV money. Costs probably up to the extent that they gobble up half of that increase.
I think we'll lose somewhere in the region of £10m by way of an Operating loss, but it's guess work really. We have shifted a lot of players on, none I'm sure on silly money but they add up and will certainly help fund the arrivals. |
Ticket revenue should be up this year but mainly due to price increases, as we have sold a lot more (cheaper) STs than last season.
The main difference is broadcasting revenue, around £8m as you say. | | | |
| FFP and owner cash injections on 13:10 - Sep 1 with 988 views | SaleAway |
Just on the mechanics of the 13M and cash injections, essentially, the allowance of 13M is made up of 5M "losses" and 8M "secured funding". So essentially, the owners are providing cash injections in order for us to even be at our FFP limit... otherwise, we'd only be allowed to lose 5M per season. | |
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