| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is 10:40 - Jul 20 with 11653 views | Darth_Koont |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 00:10 - Jul 21 with 1501 views | SpruceMoose |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 19:05 - Jul 20 by 26_Paz |
It warms the heart |
Yeah. If you're a racist sympathiser who wants to see kids go hungry over the summer. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 07:39 - Jul 21 with 1433 views | GaryCooper |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 17:26 - Jul 20 by Darth_Koont |
It's a fair question but my short answer would be that the Guardian helped put the current shower into government. I don't think they are that interested (individually or as an editorial board) in progressive politics that might take them away from the centre and the left flank of the Establishment. A combination of looking for new readers and, as journalists, not biting the hand that may well feed them more profitably.
As a result, there are deeper and more valuable aspects to the socialist/social democratic Labour policy platform under Corbyn that were ignored in favour of subjective personality attacks. Which is the other side of the same coin that gets someone like Johnson and his vacuous and self-serving populist government into power.
The UK centre is at best centre-right but arguably moderate right-wing. That's fine but we need to accept it if true, and not muddy the waters by labelling traditional socialism if not social democracy as the hard left. We're miles away from addressing the most serious issues for our country because we're useless at even recognizing the problem, so trapped we are on the right of these discussions.
The Guardian certainly should have had (and still should have) a much more valuable part to play in balancing the debate rather than blocking the space such a voice should exist. |
'It's a fair question but my short answer would be that the Guardian helped put the current shower into government.'
Corbyn and his zealot like supporters have to take all the blame for this. |  | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 08:40 - Jul 21 with 1404 views | Swansea_Blue |
Yeah but Labour wanted to have a modern, freely accessible WiFi for all. The B*STARDS!!!
(And how good that would have been too, in the new world order of more home working). |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:07 - Jul 21 with 1347 views | DecageBruce |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 17:26 - Jul 20 by Darth_Koont |
It's a fair question but my short answer would be that the Guardian helped put the current shower into government. I don't think they are that interested (individually or as an editorial board) in progressive politics that might take them away from the centre and the left flank of the Establishment. A combination of looking for new readers and, as journalists, not biting the hand that may well feed them more profitably.
As a result, there are deeper and more valuable aspects to the socialist/social democratic Labour policy platform under Corbyn that were ignored in favour of subjective personality attacks. Which is the other side of the same coin that gets someone like Johnson and his vacuous and self-serving populist government into power.
The UK centre is at best centre-right but arguably moderate right-wing. That's fine but we need to accept it if true, and not muddy the waters by labelling traditional socialism if not social democracy as the hard left. We're miles away from addressing the most serious issues for our country because we're useless at even recognizing the problem, so trapped we are on the right of these discussions.
The Guardian certainly should have had (and still should have) a much more valuable part to play in balancing the debate rather than blocking the space such a voice should exist. |
Thanks for the response.
I would ask though, is that not more a reflection on certain readers expectations or wishes of what they would like to read than on the Guardian itself.
I read a wide variety of publications (as I know a lot of others on here do) to form my view on whatever the subject matter is. Surely if the Guardian's slant/approach has become unaligned with the political views of some readers then it is up to the reader to find material that fits into their views? Unless I am mistaken (and it's entirely possible) does the Guardian have any 'real' responsibility to be a positive mouthpiece for the Labour party? [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 11:09]
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:19 - Jul 21 with 1318 views | Decoy_Octopus |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 10:55 - Jul 20 by homer_123 |
More the fact that the vitriol that comes with 'having a view'.
Gone are the days where people seemed to be able to get along but have differing views and opinions without it degenerating into a slanging match or mass generalisations.
It's OK to have different views, it's OK to support different political parties. It's OK to support the notion of a political party even if you personally don't agree with every single aspect or policy of that party. |
Tell me about it. I said I was voting Labour a while back and got called a "paedo enabler" and communist by my Tory supporting family members. |  | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:24 - Jul 21 with 1308 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:07 - Jul 21 by DecageBruce |
Thanks for the response.
I would ask though, is that not more a reflection on certain readers expectations or wishes of what they would like to read than on the Guardian itself.
I read a wide variety of publications (as I know a lot of others on here do) to form my view on whatever the subject matter is. Surely if the Guardian's slant/approach has become unaligned with the political views of some readers then it is up to the reader to find material that fits into their views? Unless I am mistaken (and it's entirely possible) does the Guardian have any 'real' responsibility to be a positive mouthpiece for the Labour party? [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 11:09]
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Yes, of course. And I think a lot of left-leaning people are happy to treat the Guardian as just another source of news and views.
But then there are the appeals to them to now save the Guardian ...
And of course it's a travesty that the UK no longer has a respected left-leaning newspaper. It may still be a respected centrist publication with more progressive views once in a while but it just increases our overall political illiteracy and our slide right. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:39 - Jul 21 with 1289 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 07:39 - Jul 21 by GaryCooper |
'It's a fair question but my short answer would be that the Guardian helped put the current shower into government.'
Corbyn and his zealot like supporters have to take all the blame for this. |
Thanks Gary. I think the belief that they'd get somewhat objective treatment by the non-loony media and their Labour party "colleagues" was certainly their biggest mistake.
Instead we saw an unprecedented political assassination, through a 4.5-year campaign of misrepresentation, smears and backstabbing that was really quite unbelievable. And showed up the massive factional and journalistic failings of our media that simultaneously explain why we've got the worst government ever now in charge and hellbent on Brexit, one of the most damaging political, social and economic decisions taken by a representative government.
But Corbyn ... | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:29 - Jul 21 with 1250 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:39 - Jul 21 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks Gary. I think the belief that they'd get somewhat objective treatment by the non-loony media and their Labour party "colleagues" was certainly their biggest mistake.
Instead we saw an unprecedented political assassination, through a 4.5-year campaign of misrepresentation, smears and backstabbing that was really quite unbelievable. And showed up the massive factional and journalistic failings of our media that simultaneously explain why we've got the worst government ever now in charge and hellbent on Brexit, one of the most damaging political, social and economic decisions taken by a representative government.
But Corbyn ... |
Poor Jezza, he was just misunderstood. |  | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:34 - Jul 21 with 1237 views | GaryCooper |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:39 - Jul 21 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks Gary. I think the belief that they'd get somewhat objective treatment by the non-loony media and their Labour party "colleagues" was certainly their biggest mistake.
Instead we saw an unprecedented political assassination, through a 4.5-year campaign of misrepresentation, smears and backstabbing that was really quite unbelievable. And showed up the massive factional and journalistic failings of our media that simultaneously explain why we've got the worst government ever now in charge and hellbent on Brexit, one of the most damaging political, social and economic decisions taken by a representative government.
But Corbyn ... |
Are you not ashamed that you enabled a BJ led government? | | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:46 - Jul 21 with 1197 views | GaryCooper |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:39 - Jul 21 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks Gary. I think the belief that they'd get somewhat objective treatment by the non-loony media and their Labour party "colleagues" was certainly their biggest mistake.
Instead we saw an unprecedented political assassination, through a 4.5-year campaign of misrepresentation, smears and backstabbing that was really quite unbelievable. And showed up the massive factional and journalistic failings of our media that simultaneously explain why we've got the worst government ever now in charge and hellbent on Brexit, one of the most damaging political, social and economic decisions taken by a representative government.
But Corbyn ... |
You could not see the writing on the wall two years prior to the election?
JC has a murky past of supporting terrorists, this was continually highlighted, embellished and yes in some instances fabricated.
Instead of thinking we really need to get rid of this man as leader for the good of the nation, because we will never get elected with him in charge, the silly ones cried victim and self righteousness won the day, the country has to suffer the useless Tories due to that insular outlook, you and your compatriots are fully responsible for this.
Until you and your compatriots leave the Labour party and form your own little cult the country will suffer Tory mis-management. Koont. | | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:05 - Jul 21 with 1164 views | Ryorry |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:46 - Jul 21 by GaryCooper |
You could not see the writing on the wall two years prior to the election?
JC has a murky past of supporting terrorists, this was continually highlighted, embellished and yes in some instances fabricated.
Instead of thinking we really need to get rid of this man as leader for the good of the nation, because we will never get elected with him in charge, the silly ones cried victim and self righteousness won the day, the country has to suffer the useless Tories due to that insular outlook, you and your compatriots are fully responsible for this.
Until you and your compatriots leave the Labour party and form your own little cult the country will suffer Tory mis-management. Koont. |
Or if he had as much integrity & intelligence as some liked to think he had, he could have seen that he himself as leader was actually the biggest spanner in the works as far as the *majority* of voters were concerned, and stood down as leader to make way for someone else. "For the greater good" didn't seem to figure there, unfortunately.
Anticipating protests from his supporters about how popular he was *within* Labour, how he increased membership numbers etc. - which would be to ignore the wider picture of GE *voters* overall. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:12 - Jul 21 with 1151 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:34 - Jul 21 by GaryCooper |
Are you not ashamed that you enabled a BJ led government? |
Not even close.
Just like I take no blame for Brexit either. Didn't agree with it, didn't vote for it, and consistently made the case against it while making the case for remaining too.
Are you not ashamed you and others don't have the honesty or arguments to own this stuff? | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:16 - Jul 21 with 1134 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:05 - Jul 21 by Ryorry |
Or if he had as much integrity & intelligence as some liked to think he had, he could have seen that he himself as leader was actually the biggest spanner in the works as far as the *majority* of voters were concerned, and stood down as leader to make way for someone else. "For the greater good" didn't seem to figure there, unfortunately.
Anticipating protests from his supporters about how popular he was *within* Labour, how he increased membership numbers etc. - which would be to ignore the wider picture of GE *voters* overall. |
He was made into the "spanner in the works" by a ridiculously smeary, personal characterisation in the media. Not to mention by factions within the Labour party itself.
This still applies (and Curtis knows a thing or two about media complicity in protecting the establishment's interests):
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:17 - Jul 21 with 1129 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:46 - Jul 21 by GaryCooper |
You could not see the writing on the wall two years prior to the election?
JC has a murky past of supporting terrorists, this was continually highlighted, embellished and yes in some instances fabricated.
Instead of thinking we really need to get rid of this man as leader for the good of the nation, because we will never get elected with him in charge, the silly ones cried victim and self righteousness won the day, the country has to suffer the useless Tories due to that insular outlook, you and your compatriots are fully responsible for this.
Until you and your compatriots leave the Labour party and form your own little cult the country will suffer Tory mis-management. Koont. |
See above.
Own it, Gary. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 with 1121 views | Ryorry |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:16 - Jul 21 by Darth_Koont |
He was made into the "spanner in the works" by a ridiculously smeary, personal characterisation in the media. Not to mention by factions within the Labour party itself.
This still applies (and Curtis knows a thing or two about media complicity in protecting the establishment's interests):
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Nothing the media said about him influenced me - I simply observed the man himself & his actions as he spoke at PMQs & at other times. If you read/heard candidates' agents as they went round canvassing in Dec., many on the doorstep said the same. JC clobbered himself, he needed little assistance. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 with 1118 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:16 - Jul 21 by Darth_Koont |
He was made into the "spanner in the works" by a ridiculously smeary, personal characterisation in the media. Not to mention by factions within the Labour party itself.
This still applies (and Curtis knows a thing or two about media complicity in protecting the establishment's interests):
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If you don’t want the media to write stories about you calling terrorists your friends, cosying up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, laying wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, standing in tribute to IRA killers and defending antisemitic murals then don’t call terrorists your friends, cosy up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, lay wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, stand in tribute to IRA killers and defend antisemitic murals.
Then all the media can throw at you is that you can’t eat a bacon sandwich very well. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:29]
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:26 - Jul 21 with 1103 views | Ryorry |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 by GlasgowBlue |
If you don’t want the media to write stories about you calling terrorists your friends, cosying up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, laying wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, standing in tribute to IRA killers and defending antisemitic murals then don’t call terrorists your friends, cosy up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, lay wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, stand in tribute to IRA killers and defend antisemitic murals.
Then all the media can throw at you is that you can’t eat a bacon sandwich very well. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:29]
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And how to explain the *lack* - lack of decisiveness over Brexit, lack of immediately smacking down really hard & authoratively re anti-semitism, being just generally weak & lacking leadership - shown also in body language. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:28 - Jul 21 with 1097 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 by GlasgowBlue |
If you don’t want the media to write stories about you calling terrorists your friends, cosying up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, laying wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, standing in tribute to IRA killers and defending antisemitic murals then don’t call terrorists your friends, cosy up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, lay wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, stand in tribute to IRA killers and defend antisemitic murals.
Then all the media can throw at you is that you can’t eat a bacon sandwich very well. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:29]
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the baggage and negative stories he had acquired over the previous 30 years was quite incredible. but he had been largely left alone because he was a non-entity, had no influence on the labour party and only embarrassed himself. but then he was elected leader - what did people expect? again, when his name went forward no one expected him to become leader, so no one bothered to think about his past or all the cr*p that came with him. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:32 - Jul 21 with 1084 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 by GlasgowBlue |
If you don’t want the media to write stories about you calling terrorists your friends, cosying up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, laying wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, standing in tribute to IRA killers and defending antisemitic murals then don’t call terrorists your friends, cosy up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, lay wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, stand in tribute to IRA killers and defend antisemitic murals.
Then all the media can throw at you is that you can’t eat a bacon sandwich very well. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:29]
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If you deny people the ability to stand on the side of the oppressed and the de facto representatives who may be awful terrorists and holocaust deniers themselves, then you really don't care about the underlying injustice.
You also know that this "zero tolerance" is entirely hypocritical based on who the establishment has chosen to stand alongside and support.
Ultimately, this is all about real people not politics and specious posturing. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:37 - Jul 21 with 1072 views | Swansea_Blue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:26 - Jul 21 by Ryorry |
And how to explain the *lack* - lack of decisiveness over Brexit, lack of immediately smacking down really hard & authoratively re anti-semitism, being just generally weak & lacking leadership - shown also in body language. |
Yep. Nobody needed the media to highlight his lack of action on the key issues that both defined the country (Brexit) and his party (anti semitism). It was the equivalent of Boris' hiding in the fridge.
On Brexit alone he failed many of Labour's core support. When we needed competent opposition to an increasingly populist, authoritarian Tory party, we got silence. He never squared the need to be an effective opposition with his own anti-EU views and played right into the hands of the Leave campaign. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:42 - Jul 21 with 1065 views | itfcjoe |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 by GlasgowBlue |
If you don’t want the media to write stories about you calling terrorists your friends, cosying up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, laying wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, standing in tribute to IRA killers and defending antisemitic murals then don’t call terrorists your friends, cosy up to antisemites and holocaust deniers, lay wreaths at the graves of black September bombers, stand in tribute to IRA killers and defend antisemitic murals.
Then all the media can throw at you is that you can’t eat a bacon sandwich very well. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 14:29]
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https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/far-left-french-politician-accuses-jew
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:44 - Jul 21 with 1059 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:21 - Jul 21 by Ryorry |
Nothing the media said about him influenced me - I simply observed the man himself & his actions as he spoke at PMQs & at other times. If you read/heard candidates' agents as they went round canvassing in Dec., many on the doorstep said the same. JC clobbered himself, he needed little assistance. |
I think that's massively naive re: influence. You only have to see on this thread how the narrative against him has taken hold.
I'm sure you remember how people characterised the ANC and its supporters back in the day? How anti-nuclear, anti-war and environmental protestors were/are presented as communist agitators? How legitimate Irish republican concerns were ignored flat out as not giving into terrorism? How Pro-Palestinians looking for sanctions and censure against Israel are automatically defined as antisemitic? How Black Lives Matter is now being portrayed as a Marxist plot? How Iraq, Syria, Libya, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, China etc. can go from allies to enemies as soon as the wind changes?
These are stories we are told until we start telling them ourselves. Doesn't make any of them true or indeed the world a better place. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:07 - Jul 21 with 1036 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 14:26 - Jul 21 by Ryorry |
And how to explain the *lack* - lack of decisiveness over Brexit, lack of immediately smacking down really hard & authoratively re anti-semitism, being just generally weak & lacking leadership - shown also in body language. |
Was there really a lack of decisiveness over Brexit? Or a compromise that Starmer championed (and still does) more than anyone else? Labour and the UK as a whole were between a rock and a hard place over Brexit. Our refusal to address that has seen us slide towards an entirely unsatisfactory and chaotic hard Brexit.
Re: antisemitism, I think that characterisation needs to be more accurately reflected by the facts. After the initial antisemitic incidents and suspensions there was the Chakrabarti report which was positively received even though it made it clear that antisemitism really wasn't widespread in the Labour party. Just like the other reports have shown and continue to show. That the implementation of recommendations didn't go well as it should have was very little to do with the leadership when reading the primary source evidence of the mess the Labour right and a few of the so-called whistleblowers made of the complaints process.
So unbalanced has been the reporting that these and other issues are frequently nothing more than narratives driven by some seriously motivated and partisan people. Let's at least focus on the independent facts rather than taking the stories at face value. [Post edited 21 Jul 2020 15:09]
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:24 - Jul 21 with 1004 views | GlasgowBlue |
quelle surprise | |
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