| Current Brexit polling 08:18 - Sep 10 with 11630 views | itfc_bucks |
So it seems that remain actually has a clear, if small, margin over leave now and its been consistent for quite some time now.
How on earth can it be undemocratic to have a final say on the deal/no deal vs remain?
There simply cannot be any argument against it now, can there? Nobody can claim they knew *how* Brexit would be enacted and the likely consequences. Now we know and should be allowed to have a say on that.
Surely? |  | | |  |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:36 - Sep 10 with 1656 views | Ftnfwest |
I think a large number of originally leave voters wouldn't bother voting again thus reversing the decision anyway. What appetite would there be from their perspective for a vote where if you vote leave it won't happen anyway or if you vote remain you accept this referendum and remain but ignore the first one? A general election has to happen instead really, either allowing the opposition parties to revoke A50 (or whatever JC wants to do, i lose track) or the conservatives to get on with it. |  | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:50 - Sep 10 with 1622 views | usm |
| Current Brexit polling on 09:50 - Sep 10 by itfc_bucks |
Because the facts and circumstances have materially changed? |
The facts and circumstance change all the time.
Perhaps we should have continuous referendums. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 10:51 - Sep 10 with 1619 views | tabletopjoe |
| Current Brexit polling on 09:57 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
I think you're a little confused.
You're certainly wrong.
SB |
I think it is you that are confused. You can't vote for the Lib Dems, if they vote that you can't have an election. |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Current Brexit polling on 10:52 - Sep 10 with 1614 views | Darth_Koont |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:50 - Sep 10 by usm |
The facts and circumstance change all the time.
Perhaps we should have continuous referendums. |
This is a bit more specific isn't it?
The facts have only emerged after the first referendum. And the circumstances have been overwhelmingly sh!te. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 10:56 - Sep 10 with 1605 views | usm |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:52 - Sep 10 by Darth_Koont |
This is a bit more specific isn't it?
The facts have only emerged after the first referendum. And the circumstances have been overwhelmingly sh!te. |
And more facts (and lies) will arise after any new referendum and circumstances will change again - could be better or worse, who knows.
The fact is - like it or not - we voted to leave - and like it or not, that is what we should do and our Politicians should be implementing what the public voted for. Instead, as usual, they are following their own agendas. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:03 - Sep 10 with 1589 views | Darth_Koont |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:56 - Sep 10 by usm |
And more facts (and lies) will arise after any new referendum and circumstances will change again - could be better or worse, who knows.
The fact is - like it or not - we voted to leave - and like it or not, that is what we should do and our Politicians should be implementing what the public voted for. Instead, as usual, they are following their own agendas. |
The recent facts have the advantage of being facts. If there's a second referendum then I have no doubt we'll see the return of the same "alternative facts" and non-solutions of Referendum 1.
Brexiteers have had three years to come up with countering evidence and a viable Brexit solution. But they can't do it. A silly appeal to democracy and the supposed "will of the people" is all they have. Ignoring of course that there is no majority view on Brexit any more and certainly not for a hard or no-deal Brexit.
They may have won the referendum but they've entirely lost the battle with reality. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:12 - Sep 10 with 1568 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:51 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
I think it is you that are confused. You can't vote for the Lib Dems, if they vote that you can't have an election. |
That's not what has happened though is it.
There will be an election soon enough and then it's perfectly possible.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:13 - Sep 10 with 1571 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:21 - Sep 10 by ElephantintheRoom |
None of these polls have any basis in reality because nobody is defining what 'leave' means. Given the good Friday agreement and the willful lack of government in Northern Ireland it is not entirely clear how leaving the EU, as put to the great unwashed is at all possible. So until somebody comes up with a plan for leaving the EU that can be put back to the great unwashed as 'reality v remain - your choice' then it's impossible to say. Although if the government had been forced to publish its own assessment of the chaos leaving without a deal (and ignoring the Irish and the fact that we haven't left, not really) it might have made a few people open their eyes. |
It's only Remainers who care what Leave means. Any Leaver I know here says "let's get out".
As a hard Remainer, I am getting so close to wanting us just to crash out. They'll suffer more than me, so let 'em have their way. | | | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:14 - Sep 10 with 1566 views | syntaxerror |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:12 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
That's not what has happened though is it.
There will be an election soon enough and then it's perfectly possible.
SB |
That not wot The Sun said |  | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:15 - Sep 10 with 1564 views | tabletopjoe |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:12 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
That's not what has happened though is it.
There will be an election soon enough and then it's perfectly possible.
SB |
Yes it is what has happened though isn't it. The Lib Dems voted that you can't have your election. It's happened twice now. Funny you're pretending it didn't happen. | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:17 - Sep 10 with 1555 views | GeoffSentence |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:52 - Sep 10 by Darth_Koont |
This is a bit more specific isn't it?
The facts have only emerged after the first referendum. And the circumstances have been overwhelmingly sh!te. |
It certainly is.
The referendum was for an absract idea, 'should we leave the EU', now we have some details about what that actually means it is entirely reasonable to ask the question again. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:20 - Sep 10 with 1551 views | BlueBadger |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:15 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
Yes it is what has happened though isn't it. The Lib Dems voted that you can't have your election. It's happened twice now. Funny you're pretending it didn't happen. |
No, they've said 'no election until we're guaranteed that a no-deal won't happen 'by accident"
Only a f*cking idiot would want a no-deal to happen, let alone 'by accident'. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:20 - Sep 10 with 1551 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:15 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
Yes it is what has happened though isn't it. The Lib Dems voted that you can't have your election. It's happened twice now. Funny you're pretending it didn't happen. |
You are conflating two issues.
They voted to not have an election before the 31st October to ensure there wasn't no deal by default.
Boris is pushing for an election. Everyone wants an election, just not quite yet.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:23 - Sep 10 with 1544 views | sotd78 |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:09 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
let's implement the first referendum and then we can think about a second referendum. that's fair, surely? |
which referendum instruction is that then? Oh it wasn't actaully an instruction it was an advisory poll. Advising what exactly? Leave with a deal? No deal? A Norway option? A Canada ++? A sort of Swiss army model? What exactly? |  |
| Blue shirts/white shorts - sotd78 |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:23 - Sep 10 with 1544 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:15 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
Yes it is what has happened though isn't it. The Lib Dems voted that you can't have your election. It's happened twice now. Funny you're pretending it didn't happen. |
'Yet' is the word you seem to have forgotten.
That an election is coming is the worst kept secret in British politics. It highly, highly, highly likely that there'll be one by the end-November. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:24 - Sep 10 with 1541 views | tabletopjoe |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:20 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
You are conflating two issues.
They voted to not have an election before the 31st October to ensure there wasn't no deal by default.
Boris is pushing for an election. Everyone wants an election, just not quite yet.
SB |
No, just the one which you don't like. So I will repeat it. The Lib Dems have now voted to deny you two general elections. | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:24 - Sep 10 with 1538 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:23 - Sep 10 by sotd78 |
which referendum instruction is that then? Oh it wasn't actaully an instruction it was an advisory poll. Advising what exactly? Leave with a deal? No deal? A Norway option? A Canada ++? A sort of Swiss army model? What exactly? |
Amazing that this still needs to be said. Anyone feel like they're stuck in a temporal loop? | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:25 - Sep 10 with 1537 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:24 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
No, just the one which you don't like. So I will repeat it. The Lib Dems have now voted to deny you two general elections. |
Current Brexit polling by Swansea_Blue 10 Sep 2019 11:23'Yet' is the word you seem to have forgotten.
That an election is coming is the worst kept secret in British politics. It highly, highly, highly likely that there'll be one by the end-November.
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:29 - Sep 10 with 1538 views | goperryrevs |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:36 - Sep 10 by Ftnfwest |
I think a large number of originally leave voters wouldn't bother voting again thus reversing the decision anyway. What appetite would there be from their perspective for a vote where if you vote leave it won't happen anyway or if you vote remain you accept this referendum and remain but ignore the first one? A general election has to happen instead really, either allowing the opposition parties to revoke A50 (or whatever JC wants to do, i lose track) or the conservatives to get on with it. |
No-one ignored the first referendum. Brexit has dominated our political process for the past two years now, at the expense of everything else.
It's the arrogance of hard Brexiteers blocking May's WA, the incompetence of the Conservative government from beginning to now, the lack of any cross-party negotiation that has brought us where we are.
A second referendum was suggested by Farage et al, from before the results of the first one even came in. As was a Norway-style solution. No-deal was off the table from everyone's point of view (for or against). If the Conservative Government had gone for a Norway-style Brexit, then it would have been an acceptable outcome for the majority of the population (on both sides), and for Parliament, and we'd be out of the EU by now. But May had her "red lines". Norway-style Brexit would have been a compromise for the 52% and 48% that would have taken both views into account.
Brexiteers have scuppered Brexit as much as Remainers have. Remainers have good reason (Brexit is a stupid idea in the first place). Hard Brexiteers, not so much. But the result is that either a clear mandate from a General Election (once, quite reasonably, Parliament does its best to stop no-deal happening), or failing that, a new referendum, is the only logical way forward. | | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:30 - Sep 10 with 1527 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:24 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
No, just the one which you don't like. So I will repeat it. The Lib Dems have now voted to deny you two general elections. |
You've fundamentally either misjudged or misunderstood what is going on in our politics at the moment. Either that or you are just being difficult.
I guess it's upset you that there could be a possibility of stopping Brexit without having another referendum at all in a way that it would be hard to argue was undemocratic.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:33 - Sep 10 with 1512 views | tabletopjoe |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:30 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
You've fundamentally either misjudged or misunderstood what is going on in our politics at the moment. Either that or you are just being difficult.
I guess it's upset you that there could be a possibility of stopping Brexit without having another referendum at all in a way that it would be hard to argue was undemocratic.
SB |
Not at all. I just enjoy stating facts. It's funny when people have such problems with them. | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:36 - Sep 10 with 1507 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:33 - Sep 10 by tabletopjoe |
Not at all. I just enjoy stating facts. It's funny when people have such problems with them. |
Facts without context aren't really useful though are they and you've totally ignored context.
If you don't think a GE is coming just go read the points from JC's speech today - that's the clearest manifesto launch you'll ever see. Boris has also been doing the same the last week.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:37 - Sep 10 with 1499 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:29 - Sep 10 by goperryrevs |
No-one ignored the first referendum. Brexit has dominated our political process for the past two years now, at the expense of everything else.
It's the arrogance of hard Brexiteers blocking May's WA, the incompetence of the Conservative government from beginning to now, the lack of any cross-party negotiation that has brought us where we are.
A second referendum was suggested by Farage et al, from before the results of the first one even came in. As was a Norway-style solution. No-deal was off the table from everyone's point of view (for or against). If the Conservative Government had gone for a Norway-style Brexit, then it would have been an acceptable outcome for the majority of the population (on both sides), and for Parliament, and we'd be out of the EU by now. But May had her "red lines". Norway-style Brexit would have been a compromise for the 52% and 48% that would have taken both views into account.
Brexiteers have scuppered Brexit as much as Remainers have. Remainers have good reason (Brexit is a stupid idea in the first place). Hard Brexiteers, not so much. But the result is that either a clear mandate from a General Election (once, quite reasonably, Parliament does its best to stop no-deal happening), or failing that, a new referendum, is the only logical way forward. |
Quite, good post.
I don't think a GE is going to solve anything though; it's only 2 years since the last one which was dominated by Brexit. I've no idea what the answer is, but I can't see a GE resulting in a mandate for a particular type of Brexit and providing a clear path forward.
I suppose we'll have to see what the parties stand on, but I imagine the Tories will be vague enough to appeal to all parts of their party, Labour have vague and unrealistic hopes for an undefined deal that's unlikely to materialise. The BP don't do manifestos. So far only Lib Dems seem to have an unequivocal position.
I've said it before, but I'm not at all keen on a single issue GE as some sort of proxy referendum. Party loyalties obfuscate the position and you won't get a fair representation of the actual views on Brexit. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 11:48 - Sep 10 with 1464 views | lowhouseblue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:23 - Sep 10 by sotd78 |
which referendum instruction is that then? Oh it wasn't actaully an instruction it was an advisory poll. Advising what exactly? Leave with a deal? No deal? A Norway option? A Canada ++? A sort of Swiss army model? What exactly? |
leave on the best terms the government can negotiate. that objective was recognised in the manifestos of both main parties in 2017. they knew what it meant then and they made promises on that basis. the 'oh gosh, we don't know what it can possibly mean' line is new since 2017 and is just a coordinated effort by remainers to remain. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Current Brexit polling on 12:02 - Sep 10 with 1446 views | goperryrevs |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:48 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
leave on the best terms the government can negotiate. that objective was recognised in the manifestos of both main parties in 2017. they knew what it meant then and they made promises on that basis. the 'oh gosh, we don't know what it can possibly mean' line is new since 2017 and is just a coordinated effort by remainers to remain. |
'best terms'.
Not 'no terms'.
There is no mandate for no-deal. | | | |
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