| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 53224 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 07:59 - Aug 31 with 4295 views | jimmyvet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 21:39 - Aug 14 by Herbivore |
I'll just leave this here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49348072
Talk of "collaboraters" and the demonisation of MPs wanting to "thwart Brexit" when what is actually happening is legitimate opposition to a car crash of a PM looking to drive us off a cliff is, frankly, deeply troubling.
The Telegraph has now gone full propaganda sheet as well. It's currently even less credible than trash like The Mail and yet it's meant to be part of the "quality press". We're in such a state. |
All of course in your opinion which has been shown time and again to be pretty biased in that only your opinion counts.
Your more drama than a soap on TV you really are. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:14 - Aug 31 with 4266 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 07:59 - Aug 31 by jimmyvet |
All of course in your opinion which has been shown time and again to be pretty biased in that only your opinion counts.
Your more drama than a soap on TV you really are. |
Literally the only thing of value in this post is that it's the first one you've ever made that's not basically saying "yeah but Corbyn". Baby steps, but perhaps one day you might offer something worthwhile that adds to the debate. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:44 - Aug 31 with 4235 views | StokieBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 07:59 - Aug 31 by jimmyvet |
All of course in your opinion which has been shown time and again to be pretty biased in that only your opinion counts.
Your more drama than a soap on TV you really are. |
It's not really just in his opinion though. The only way I can see that you could draw that conclusion is if what he has said in that post challenges your own view and you don't particularly like it.
The language used by Boris is clearly designed to pit one side against the other in a more and more verhment fashion. What other use could words like "collaborators" have when used to describe someone who simply disagrees with you.
Perhaps something to think about.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 07:55 - Sep 2 with 4135 views | DanTheMan |
And on a different note, if anyone has seen people with lots of clown emojis in their names on Twitter, you've been introduced to the world of "Honkler" also known as dressing up racism and antisemitism as clown memes. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:06 - Sep 26 with 3943 views | Herbivore |
Thought this was worth revisiting today. Since the thread was started we've seen:
- The government unlawfully shutting down parliament.
- The government refusing to accept that the highest court in the land made the right decision, despite it being unanimous.
- A Tory MP saying we should abolish the Supreme Court on the basis that it won't let a minority government act like a dictatorship.
- The same minority government pretty openly plotting to disobey the law again by not enacting the Benn Act.
- A large number of moderates from that government have been expelled for not blindly agreeing with the PM.
- The remaining moderates are refusing to condemn the extremist behaviour of their government.
- The PM and his press cronies using language like traitors and surrender about people who legitimately disagree with them in order to stir up hate and division.
How many of you still think this thread was completely OTT? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:13 - Sep 26 with 3942 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:06 - Sep 26 by Herbivore |
Thought this was worth revisiting today. Since the thread was started we've seen:
- The government unlawfully shutting down parliament.
- The government refusing to accept that the highest court in the land made the right decision, despite it being unanimous.
- A Tory MP saying we should abolish the Supreme Court on the basis that it won't let a minority government act like a dictatorship.
- The same minority government pretty openly plotting to disobey the law again by not enacting the Benn Act.
- A large number of moderates from that government have been expelled for not blindly agreeing with the PM.
- The remaining moderates are refusing to condemn the extremist behaviour of their government.
- The PM and his press cronies using language like traitors and surrender about people who legitimately disagree with them in order to stir up hate and division.
How many of you still think this thread was completely OTT? |
The op was hyperbole.
But far less so than I thought at the time.
We are seeing the normalisation of agression, belligerence and single m8nded populism fuelled dictatorship approach to governing. In both US and now Uk. Teenagers are growing up thinking that this is how government works.
Im genuinely worried. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Sep 26 with 3925 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:13 - Sep 26 by sparks |
The op was hyperbole.
But far less so than I thought at the time.
We are seeing the normalisation of agression, belligerence and single m8nded populism fuelled dictatorship approach to governing. In both US and now Uk. Teenagers are growing up thinking that this is how government works.
Im genuinely worried. |
Some of us just saw it coming a bit earlier I guess. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:31 - Sep 26 with 3904 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:13 - Sep 26 by sparks |
The op was hyperbole.
But far less so than I thought at the time.
We are seeing the normalisation of agression, belligerence and single m8nded populism fuelled dictatorship approach to governing. In both US and now Uk. Teenagers are growing up thinking that this is how government works.
Im genuinely worried. |
Only hyperbole in relation to comparison with the Nazis; and that's the issue with identifying fascism or calling it out. It's meaning has been diminished/narrowed/demonised to such an extent that we now only apply it to extreme fascist ideology and practices including mass murder.
Other than that, OP is pretty much spot on about what is happening and how (he specifically says he wasn't implying the end game would be the same as the Nazis, but simply the modus operandi is similar, and that it's catching people out).
I think that's right. We've seen creeping expansion of authoritarian oppression, attempts of the executive to subert due process in parliament, invoking actions in the name of "the people", attacks on the judiciary because the government must not be stopped at any cost, etc. All are textbook examples of fascism, on whichever side of the political spectrum. It's happening right in front of our eyes and we've let it happen.
The glimmer of hope is that this week the courts have rebalanced the power back towards one of our key institutions. Had that not happened, I'd be really worried about where we're heading. Despite all the bluster from Boris and everyone screaming traitor, our elected representatives are still in control (for now).
Edit - just reading back my earlier posts on this thread, and it's clear my position has shifted on this a bit. I would have been nervous about calling this fascism earlier. I think it's pretty clear, especially after this week, that we're seeing typical fascist tendencies to try and oppress the institutions of law and order. [Post edited 26 Sep 2019 9:35]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:41 - Sep 26 with 3888 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Sep 26 by Herbivore |
Some of us just saw it coming a bit earlier I guess. |
People expressing views such as yours have been a fundamental part of the feedback loop of demonising and polarisation.
Congrats for helping to create the appalling situation we now all face. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:43 - Sep 26 with 3868 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:41 - Sep 26 by sparks |
People expressing views such as yours have been a fundamental part of the feedback loop of demonising and polarisation.
Congrats for helping to create the appalling situation we now all face. |
What a ludicrous post. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:19 - Sep 26 with 3834 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:41 - Sep 26 by sparks |
People expressing views such as yours have been a fundamental part of the feedback loop of demonising and polarisation.
Congrats for helping to create the appalling situation we now all face. |
That's a bit of a silly thing to say in the context. Hardly Herb's fault that there's a whole swathe of people in the UK that fear and blame immigrants, that are issuing death threats to people carrying out their job, all deliberately stirred up by paid agitators and a complicit element of the popular press. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:37 - Sep 26 with 3817 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:19 - Sep 26 by Swansea_Blue |
That's a bit of a silly thing to say in the context. Hardly Herb's fault that there's a whole swathe of people in the UK that fear and blame immigrants, that are issuing death threats to people carrying out their job, all deliberately stirred up by paid agitators and a complicit element of the popular press. |
This is sparks doing Trump's "there are fine people on both sides" routine. He can't bring himself to fully acknowledge that his wing of politics has lurched the country into dangerous far right territory and so he's lashing out at those who had the foresight to see it coming rather than focusing his anger on those actually responsible for it. It's a shame but not entirely unexpected. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:37 - Sep 26 with 3822 views | Oldsmoker |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:19 - Sep 26 by Swansea_Blue |
That's a bit of a silly thing to say in the context. Hardly Herb's fault that there's a whole swathe of people in the UK that fear and blame immigrants, that are issuing death threats to people carrying out their job, all deliberately stirred up by paid agitators and a complicit element of the popular press. |
Having just watched a 3-part doc on "The rise of the Nazis" I have seen some similarities too.
The Stormtroopers were a paramilitary group who started out killing communists. There is no comparable group today.
However, Rohm, who ran the stormtroopers, was got rid of and Himmler absorbed them into the SS.
Substitute Rohm and Himmler for Farage and Cummings.
So the next step is to get rid of Farage and absorb the Brexit party into the Tories.
This is close to what is actually happening. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:41 - Sep 26 with 3810 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:37 - Sep 26 by Oldsmoker |
Having just watched a 3-part doc on "The rise of the Nazis" I have seen some similarities too.
The Stormtroopers were a paramilitary group who started out killing communists. There is no comparable group today.
However, Rohm, who ran the stormtroopers, was got rid of and Himmler absorbed them into the SS.
Substitute Rohm and Himmler for Farage and Cummings.
So the next step is to get rid of Farage and absorb the Brexit party into the Tories.
This is close to what is actually happening. |
Farage is essentially desperately pleading for this to happen. His sole focus now is on an electoral pact with the Tories to try and win them a majority, he's only paying lip service to the Brexit Party actually aspiring to win seats. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:41 - Sep 26 with 3812 views | sparks |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:19 - Sep 26 by Swansea_Blue |
That's a bit of a silly thing to say in the context. Hardly Herb's fault that there's a whole swathe of people in the UK that fear and blame immigrants, that are issuing death threats to people carrying out their job, all deliberately stirred up by paid agitators and a complicit element of the popular press. |
Two sides to the feedback loop. Look at how Momentum go about things. Look at the demonisation of even labour supporters who question Corbyn. Etc etc. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:42 - Sep 26 with 3808 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:41 - Sep 26 by sparks |
Two sides to the feedback loop. Look at how Momentum go about things. Look at the demonisation of even labour supporters who question Corbyn. Etc etc. |
I'm not even a Labour supporter let alone a Momentum member. You're still wrong either way. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:42 - Sep 26 with 3810 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:37 - Sep 26 by Oldsmoker |
Having just watched a 3-part doc on "The rise of the Nazis" I have seen some similarities too.
The Stormtroopers were a paramilitary group who started out killing communists. There is no comparable group today.
However, Rohm, who ran the stormtroopers, was got rid of and Himmler absorbed them into the SS.
Substitute Rohm and Himmler for Farage and Cummings.
So the next step is to get rid of Farage and absorb the Brexit party into the Tories.
This is close to what is actually happening. |
I've heard good things about that documentary - is it a good watch? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:45 - Sep 26 with 3812 views | caught-in-limbo |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Sep 26 by Herbivore |
Some of us just saw it coming a bit earlier I guess. |
And some of us saw it coming about 5 years before that.
I'd like to point out that the fascism we're witnessing at the moment is not the sort of fascism that we're going to have to really worry about. What we're really seeing now is a simulation of fascism, but it's not genuine, it's too chaotic. This is pseudo fascism and it's being imposed on us for the real thing which is coming next.
So, for those who can't see that, you really are sleepwalking into fascism.
I'll say it again:
"Fascism will come in the name of anti-fascism." [Post edited 26 Sep 2019 10:53]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:53 - Sep 26 with 3791 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:45 - Sep 26 by caught-in-limbo |
And some of us saw it coming about 5 years before that.
I'd like to point out that the fascism we're witnessing at the moment is not the sort of fascism that we're going to have to really worry about. What we're really seeing now is a simulation of fascism, but it's not genuine, it's too chaotic. This is pseudo fascism and it's being imposed on us for the real thing which is coming next.
So, for those who can't see that, you really are sleepwalking into fascism.
I'll say it again:
"Fascism will come in the name of anti-fascism." [Post edited 26 Sep 2019 10:53]
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You keep saying it and it keeps being b0llocks. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:53 - Sep 26 with 3793 views | Oldsmoker |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 10:42 - Sep 26 by Swansea_Blue |
I've heard good things about that documentary - is it a good watch? |
Yes - It doesn't glorify anybody.
It does show how the old guard who live by a code of conduct and expect others to do so (eg Keep their promise) are easily outmanouvered by manipulative people.
It's an old-school BBC doc in chronological order. There are acted scenes but it's factually correct and doesn't make assumptions that can't be proven.
It doesn't repeat footage like so many documentaries do nowadays because there was an ad-break.
Edit : I have one gripe - the incessant choral music. It's like an opera at times. I hate it when the music detracts rather than enhances but when it's not to your taste I guess it grates. [Post edited 26 Sep 2019 10:57]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:04 - Feb 8 with 3126 views | Herbivore |
Thought I'd add this, Trump immediately sacking two people on the basis that they testified against him during his impeachment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51408704
Ostracise and silence those who dare question the supreme leader. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 12:47 - Sep 27 with 2463 views | Oldsmoker |
This thread has highlighted how the govt. is pushing the boundaries of what we see as normal and only stopping when there is resistance. If there is little or no resistance then we get a new normal. I don't think Johnson et al are bothered whether we end up, be it Authoritarianism, Totalitarianism or Facism - it's all about control and keeping control. This article is another example of a stepping stone. Chipping away, piece by piece, until there's no way back apart from a civil uprising. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 20:39 - Jan 6 with 2307 views | Herbivore |
Oh hey! | |
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