| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge 09:04 - Feb 24 with 28479 views | pickles110564 |
Could not support a Labour government under Corbyn, well said m8. |  | | |  |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:42 - Feb 25 with 4341 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:34 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
and without getting elected you do nothing about child poverty and other heinous inequalities which may be on the rise. nothing, zilch, zero, nowt, sweet fa. |
Something Chukka et al could have helped with massively over the past few years. But no, it was all about them and their vision for what the Labour party should be - basically caring Tories when there are bigger more fundamental and structural issues that need addressing. Like why are we one of the the biggest economies in the world but with child poverty levels rising nationally and life expectancy falling in certain regions.
They'll follow the electorate wherever the electorate, in turn led by a hugely anti-left media, takes them. All a bit cosy, self-satisfied and ultimately pointless even if they do get in. "Well, it would be worse under the Tories" isn't a platform. |  |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:51 - Feb 25 with 4315 views | lowhouseblue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:42 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
Something Chukka et al could have helped with massively over the past few years. But no, it was all about them and their vision for what the Labour party should be - basically caring Tories when there are bigger more fundamental and structural issues that need addressing. Like why are we one of the the biggest economies in the world but with child poverty levels rising nationally and life expectancy falling in certain regions.
They'll follow the electorate wherever the electorate, in turn led by a hugely anti-left media, takes them. All a bit cosy, self-satisfied and ultimately pointless even if they do get in. "Well, it would be worse under the Tories" isn't a platform. |
that's all very lovely. but you will never have a left of centre government which can't win the support of people like him (and indeed me). listing what is wrong with the tories is doubtless very satisfying but to do anything about it requires broad support. you can bang on to people who agree with you about fundamental and structural issues, which doubtless feels good, or you can win broad support, win an election and change stuff. if all you ever do is list what's wrong with the world it's just a virtue signalling pose. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:55 - Feb 25 with 4305 views | ZedRodgers |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:39 - Feb 25 by GlasgowBlue |
“and have mostly had Labour ahead before the split”
I’m away but I really can’t let that nonsense go unchallenged. The 4 most recent polls before the split.
Edit. And if you dump the Jezziah......
[Post edited 25 Feb 2019 12:44]
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It’s convenient that you stopped copy and pasting links from Britain Elects at the exact point at where Labour had been ahead in all but 1 poll since October, hence why I said “mostly”.
You focus on your 4 polls if it makes you happy. It’s very cute but doesn’t change that what I said was right, or challenge the context of any of the other points I made. |  |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:56 - Feb 25 with 4302 views | Lord_Lucan |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 22:05 - Feb 24 by bournemouthblue |
I don't think you quite appreciate what a talking to would entail
Any intelligence of use can be sent back to Syria and used against her friends potentially
Whether that's NATO partners or our boys on the ground who aren't officially there but have certainly been operating
That's going to be a pretty intensive set of interviewing with all kinds of bodies and agencies
They'll attempt to deradicalise her
They'll charge her if they can and put her through the Justice System. You have to take into account that the profile of the case means they are probably going to throw the book at her and make an example of her. |
I think the post he was replying to was a suggestion that the parents could give her a good talking to as if she had slightly misbehaved. |  |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:00 - Feb 25 with 4289 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:51 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
that's all very lovely. but you will never have a left of centre government which can't win the support of people like him (and indeed me). listing what is wrong with the tories is doubtless very satisfying but to do anything about it requires broad support. you can bang on to people who agree with you about fundamental and structural issues, which doubtless feels good, or you can win broad support, win an election and change stuff. if all you ever do is list what's wrong with the world it's just a virtue signalling pose. |
So how did Corbyn outperform Milliband? It's more complex than that but if we're making it just about leaders.
And re: your silly little barb at the end, if it's all about getting power and propping up a status quo that arguably needs changing then what's the point of any of this? Political power on its own is useless as we're seeing now with the clueless lame duck of a government. Changing that cosmetically from blue to red is even more insane. [Post edited 25 Feb 2019 13:09]
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:06 - Feb 25 with 4272 views | lowhouseblue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:00 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
So how did Corbyn outperform Milliband? It's more complex than that but if we're making it just about leaders.
And re: your silly little barb at the end, if it's all about getting power and propping up a status quo that arguably needs changing then what's the point of any of this? Political power on its own is useless as we're seeing now with the clueless lame duck of a government. Changing that cosmetically from blue to red is even more insane. [Post edited 25 Feb 2019 13:09]
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if even milliband had been up against the campaign that may ran we would now have a labour government (we wouldn't of course because may would never have called the election in the first place). come on, how is it possible for this crap storm of a government to be ahead in the polls? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:10 - Feb 25 with 4259 views | GlasgowBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 12:55 - Feb 25 by ZedRodgers |
It’s convenient that you stopped copy and pasting links from Britain Elects at the exact point at where Labour had been ahead in all but 1 poll since October, hence why I said “mostly”.
You focus on your 4 polls if it makes you happy. It’s very cute but doesn’t change that what I said was right, or challenge the context of any of the other points I made. |
What part of the 4 most recent polls before the split did you struggle to understand? |  |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:12 - Feb 25 with 4259 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:06 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
if even milliband had been up against the campaign that may ran we would now have a labour government (we wouldn't of course because may would never have called the election in the first place). come on, how is it possible for this crap storm of a government to be ahead in the polls? |
If Milliband had had the level of lies and smears Corbyn has had thrown at him then he'd have performed even worse in 2015.
The anti-Corbyn narrative has been even more misleading than the Brexiteers campaign. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:27 - Feb 25 with 4218 views | lowhouseblue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:12 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
If Milliband had had the level of lies and smears Corbyn has had thrown at him then he'd have performed even worse in 2015.
The anti-Corbyn narrative has been even more misleading than the Brexiteers campaign. |
but, accepting your narrative for the moment, then that's the reality. you can wish it away, stamp your feet and say life's not fair, or build broad enough support that you win the next election. in any case we've established that corbyn and clique around him are electoral cyanide. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:30 - Feb 25 with 4211 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:12 - Feb 25 by Championship |
Corbyn energised a lot of people when he got the leadership. People were desperate for something different, anything different to shake up the political spectrum.
Corbyn is at the centre of an anti-Semitism scandal, he has lost a confidence vote by his own MPs by a landslide, he has shown weakness on many occasions - the latest being not showing up to a PLP meeting the day 7 (I think it was 7?) MPs quit his part, he has been incredibly ineffective as opposition leader and he has sat back and let the Tories have a free crack at Brexit.
That poll with Corbyn versus without Corbyn really says it all. If he stays, we can look forward to another nice long period of Tory rule. |
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Corbyn is a great politician. But then again I can't see many that are among those who rise to the top of their parties.
The issue for me is that with a shift to the left in the Labour Party there is an alternative for the electorate. But this shift is being blocked and fought by the Establishment (even those elements within Labour) using every tactic in the book. To that end, the way the prevailing narrative is a personal attack rather than a political one in the true sense of the word means that this is a battle that needs to be fought before the forces of darkness get their way and a new moderate Labour party leader is installed.
I make Zed right that this is actually more than about Corbyn. And that's from both pro and anti sides. But if Corbyn is the stumbling block or unnecessary distraction then he should step aside. But I think we know that the next leader will get similar treatment unless he or she toes the line more. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:31 - Feb 25 with 4208 views | ZedRodgers |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:10 - Feb 25 by GlasgowBlue |
What part of the 4 most recent polls before the split did you struggle to understand? |
Yes, we can all see that you've taken my "mostly have had Labour ahead" referring to polls across recent months and revised this into just four polls from a much smaller period of time, that just so happen to reflect your point of view.
Well done you. A Paul Foot Award awaits you. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:33 - Feb 25 with 4201 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:27 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
but, accepting your narrative for the moment, then that's the reality. you can wish it away, stamp your feet and say life's not fair, or build broad enough support that you win the next election. in any case we've established that corbyn and clique around him are electoral cyanide. |
Well, you fight the narrative and expose it. Like I do with you — it's actually your narrative.
That self-serving narrative isn't going away whoever is in charge if they're promoting change. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:38 - Feb 25 with 4184 views | lowhouseblue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:33 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
Well, you fight the narrative and expose it. Like I do with you — it's actually your narrative.
That self-serving narrative isn't going away whoever is in charge if they're promoting change. |
no, no, no. my narrative certainly isn't that corbyn has had lies and smears directed at him. my narrative, just to be clear, is that he is unelectable and utterly unfit to hold high office. i don't mind him being chair of his allotment committee - but then I don't live in islington so it doesn't really impact on me. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:43 - Feb 25 with 4163 views | StokieBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:31 - Feb 25 by ZedRodgers |
Yes, we can all see that you've taken my "mostly have had Labour ahead" referring to polls across recent months and revised this into just four polls from a much smaller period of time, that just so happen to reflect your point of view.
Well done you. A Paul Foot Award awaits you. |
"Would the fact that the polls are much closer now and have mostly had Labour ahead before the split"
Do you honestly think that sentence implies polls over recent months? I think to most it would imply the polls immediately before the split hence the confusion. I'm sure an honest mistake all round.
SB [Post edited 25 Feb 2019 13:46]
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| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:49 - Feb 25 with 4137 views | GlasgowBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:31 - Feb 25 by ZedRodgers |
Yes, we can all see that you've taken my "mostly have had Labour ahead" referring to polls across recent months and revised this into just four polls from a much smaller period of time, that just so happen to reflect your point of view.
Well done you. A Paul Foot Award awaits you. |
You framed the debate from the point of view that before the split Labour was leading in the polls. They weren’t.
The problem with your momentum attack lines is that they may work well in a bubble of like minded cult followers but don’t stand up to scrutiny. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:22 - Feb 25 with 4096 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 13:38 - Feb 25 by lowhouseblue |
no, no, no. my narrative certainly isn't that corbyn has had lies and smears directed at him. my narrative, just to be clear, is that he is unelectable and utterly unfit to hold high office. i don't mind him being chair of his allotment committee - but then I don't live in islington so it doesn't really impact on me. |
"Unelectable" and "utterly unfit to hold high office" make up your narrative. You called the election wrong on that score so you and others have now moved on to antisemitism as the reason he's unelectable and unfit.
It's pretty transparent. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:24 - Feb 25 with 4086 views | GlasgowBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:22 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
"Unelectable" and "utterly unfit to hold high office" make up your narrative. You called the election wrong on that score so you and others have now moved on to antisemitism as the reason he's unelectable and unfit.
It's pretty transparent. |
“Moved on to antisemtism”. Still peddling that lie despite others putting you right on it. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:26 - Feb 25 with 4079 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:24 - Feb 25 by GlasgowBlue |
“Moved on to antisemtism”. Still peddling that lie despite others putting you right on it. |
It's not a lie. It's pretty evident that people are making political capital out of antisemitism.
The evidence for the bigger case of institutional racism is simply too weak. [Post edited 25 Feb 2019 14:27]
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:29 - Feb 25 with 4056 views | GlasgowBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:26 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
It's not a lie. It's pretty evident that people are making political capital out of antisemitism.
The evidence for the bigger case of institutional racism is simply too weak. [Post edited 25 Feb 2019 14:27]
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You started that some of us moved into antisemtism after the election. That is absolute bollox as you well know. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:34 - Feb 25 with 4040 views | Darth_Koont |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:29 - Feb 25 by GlasgowBlue |
You started that some of us moved into antisemtism after the election. That is absolute bollox as you well know. |
Hopefully, like me you've never accepted antisemitism. But we're talking antisemitism and Corbyn here and only you can answer that part.
But I'm not interested in that so much as trying to see the objective evidence of institutional antisemitism as portrayed by Corbyn's leading critics and disputed by many who support him. Or do you think only one side has a monopoly on the truth and facts? | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:35 - Feb 25 with 4037 views | lowhouseblue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:22 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
"Unelectable" and "utterly unfit to hold high office" make up your narrative. You called the election wrong on that score so you and others have now moved on to antisemitism as the reason he's unelectable and unfit.
It's pretty transparent. |
thank you for giving me this opportunity to explain why he is unfit for high office (excluding the allotment committee). My reasons are:
(1) his long held position on foreign policy where he supports every despot and dictator who opposes the uk and its allies, and he opposes the alliances which provide for the uk's security; (2) his long established excuse making for terrorists - provided that they oppose the uk - and his opposition to almost every policy to counter terrorism; (3) his utter lack of economic credibility; (4) his lack of leadership, strategy and political ability; (4) his obscene failure to deal with the crisis of anti-semitism in the labour party and the fact that most of that anti-semitism has been associated with people who joined the party because of him and because they share his views on (1) and (2) above; (5) he has not had a single new idea since approx. 1973; and (6) he really isn't very bright.
but thanks you again for asking the question. the more I think about it perhaps membership secretary of the allotment committee might be more his thing than chair? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:55 - Feb 25 with 4006 views | ZedRodgers |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 10:08 - Feb 24 by pickles110564 |
Good Morning Zed, difference between you and me i can listen and take in both sides in a debate. I do not like Corbyn because he is betraying the core labour voter that has always wanted to leave the EU.
He has no principles and will just say what he thinks will get him the most votes.
Look at the girl who went to Syria, supports the Manchester bombing, says nothing wrong in beheading and yet he would welcome her back in to this country, like i said will do anything he thinks will get him the most votes. |
I've got a bone to pick with you about this Pickles.
I've avoided the other thread about this Begum character because there was just too much hysterical nonsense to sift through. Corbyn is right to say she should be able to come back and face whatever consequences there are as a result of an investigation. You suggestion that she would be welcomed back implies that he's offering for her to come and live the life of Riley and be given a house and benefits or whatever other Daily Mail headline you want to attach to her. Not once did he used the term welcomed.
The thing that's stumped me most about the whole media circus around this girl is that it's being framed as a one-off novelty situation and that the question of deprived somebody of their citizenship isn't something which has been asked before. The sensationalism around this has all the markings of a government PR stunt to show how tough they are, but also how willing they are to feed the Islamophobic/nationalist populist vote.
The reality is that this case isn't a novelty, it's a shamefully widespread. 100+ people have been stripped of their citizenship per year since the Home Office was turned into a racist endeavour by May. In fact, she isn't even the only British-Bangladeshi woman to have been stripped of her citizenship in the last couple of years for allegations of connections to ISIS. This adds further questions as to why this case is receiving so much media attention - Perhaps the fact that the other woman's children were detained following quite weak allegations may have been something to do with it not receiving the same kind of attention?
Or what about the aid workers that went to Syria to work for a charity being stripped of their citizenships? Never charged with any offences, just sent a letter from Amber Rudd telling them they were no longer British citizens.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-british-aid-workers-syria-stripped-
The root of the issue is distorted by framing her case as a question between her whether she wanted to be part of a murderous ideology before changing her mind, or whether she was just a victim.
One thing that is clear is the teenage girls groomed by ISIS aren't granted the same level of sympathy as any other victim of grooming. Of course there are a number of complex political and social variables behind this, but the fact remains.
It's well documented that ISIS promise a utopia to these girls where they can be free from the racism and male-dominated lives they lead in the UK. They market themselves as the answer to the struggles these girls face here.
I implore you and anybody else that believes they have an opinion on this situation to read this article from 2015 which explores how the political vision offered by ISIS is marketed in a way that offers solutions to these girls' problems.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/why-women-choose-isis-islamic-militancy
Instead of trying to address these issues, the media have turned this into a binary circus where her hollow feelings about death and remorse have been turned into evidence that the root of the evil is actually within her. The best way of understanding our hypocrisy here is perhaps to reflect on the West's continuous apathy to the death and devastation that takes place around us. It's the exact same thing. Just go to the online comments section of our national newspaper and I'm sure you'll see the same apathy to migrants drowning in the sea, or whatever else has been presented to people as something to gloat over.
The deprivation laws that were brought in by the Labour government in 2002 and completely revamped by the 2014 Immigration Act have consistently targeted black and brown people in a way that's made it normal and often something to champion, even for people on the 'left'. People that in many circumstances would say they oppose racism would have no issue with saying this girl should be deprived of her citizenship.
The Kafkaesque cycle of punishing people before prosecuting them, before finally seeing if there was any indication of a crime is flawed from start to finish. In other areas, such as the situation with Tommy Robinson, the free speech rhetoric would prevail. When you add the secret immigration courts, passport removals and pre-trial incarcerations to the mix, some serious questions must be asked about whether the system that's in place that would await Begum here would even serve the justice we expect.
Before you suggest otherwise, none of what I've said excuses the fact that anybody found to be connected to the uncountable deaths in Syria and beyond at the hands of ISIS should not be subject to a punishment. But to suggest the deprivation of citizenship that disconnects Britain from a situation that it if we've learnt anything from the Cameron government, we are more than culpable for. The decisions of our government led to what is happening now, to wash our hands of a product of our own making is indefensible. | |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:58 - Feb 25 with 3999 views | StokieBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:34 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
Hopefully, like me you've never accepted antisemitism. But we're talking antisemitism and Corbyn here and only you can answer that part.
But I'm not interested in that so much as trying to see the objective evidence of institutional antisemitism as portrayed by Corbyn's leading critics and disputed by many who support him. Or do you think only one side has a monopoly on the truth and facts? |
The founder of Momentum has said today there a widespread problem with antisemitism in Labour but that it's not institutionally antisemitic:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/25/labour-has-widespread-problem-w
I'm not really knowledgeable on the debate but I guess the issue is when does the member and institution become one?
SB | |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 15:00 - Feb 25 with 3987 views | GlasgowBlue |
| great interview by Chukka now with Sophie Ridge on 14:34 - Feb 25 by Darth_Koont |
Hopefully, like me you've never accepted antisemitism. But we're talking antisemitism and Corbyn here and only you can answer that part.
But I'm not interested in that so much as trying to see the objective evidence of institutional antisemitism as portrayed by Corbyn's leading critics and disputed by many who support him. Or do you think only one side has a monopoly on the truth and facts? |
Jon Lansman, founder of Momentum, says there are now a "much larger number of people with hardcore antisemitic opinion" in the Labour Party, and they are "polluting the atmosphere" in meetings and online. | |
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