| Were bomber command war criminals 21:29 - Jun 24 with 12549 views | gtsb |
BBC4 now. Time watch on WW2. Showed a programme from the 70's/early 80's where a panel, including Germans, were debating this. The German argument was that civilians were killed and one British pilot who took part in the raid said that the civilians of Dresden were the people making the armaments that were killing allied soldiers and civilians so the raids were legitimate. Another commentator has said that WW2 was total war so it was legitimate. I can understand the views of those who witnessed or took part in it though and can understand the fors and against. It's fascinating that the debate still rages on today. |  | | |  |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 15:38 - Jun 26 with 1901 views | Radlett_blue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 14:52 - Jun 26 by theblueginger |
The issue with Dresden at the time, was the city was filled with a large concentration of refugees fleeing from the advancing Soviets to the east, so the exact numbers of dead will never be known.
The bombing was worsened by the fact the Americans bombed during the day, and Bomber Command at night-often the 2 Allies worked interdependently from each other, whereas in this case there was no respite for those below. |
My father was a teenager during WWII & joined the navy. I remember debating Dresden with him some years ago & although he agreed that the number of civilian casualties was horrendous, he also said that at the time "It didn't half make us feel better".
Hard to judge acts from another generation by modern standards & I'm sure Dresden was presented at the time as a great success. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 16:03 - Jun 26 with 1883 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 14:47 - Jun 26 by theblueginger |
Not at all they were seen as justice for the Blitz.
For those interested, I did my Dissertation for my Masters on the American perspective of Strategic Bombing Campaign against Germany. If anyone would like a read through, let me know. |
Possibly but I think you need to read through the whole thread and address a few counter views before I decide. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 17:59 - Jun 26 with 1858 views | The_Last_Baron |
The Germans bombed the hell out of many British cities and killed thousands. We returned the serve when we gained the upper hand, it may seem a harsh thing to say but war is brutal and every tactic against the enemy had to be used. Germany had to be defeated at all costs. Remember they started the war invading nations where they had no business, immediately killing civilians and and acting disgustingly. I'd have preferred if the war had ended without German cities being bombed and civilians killed, but that's war. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 06:48 - Jun 27 with 1801 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 17:59 - Jun 26 by The_Last_Baron |
The Germans bombed the hell out of many British cities and killed thousands. We returned the serve when we gained the upper hand, it may seem a harsh thing to say but war is brutal and every tactic against the enemy had to be used. Germany had to be defeated at all costs. Remember they started the war invading nations where they had no business, immediately killing civilians and and acting disgustingly. I'd have preferred if the war had ended without German cities being bombed and civilians killed, but that's war. |
But you are not taking on board the question that was asked, there were dissenting voices at the time that we launched bombing strikes against German cities, some of those dissenting voices were within the War Cabinet, some were in the armed forces. And the reasons were not only the ones you view as soft. Firstly, at a time of very scarce resources area bombing was a waste. Secondly, as was seen from British reactions, killing civilians tended to strengthen the resolve and play into the hands of the propagandists deluding (in the case of the Nazis), rather than the intended weakening, of the population attacked. [Post edited 27 Jun 2018 8:20]
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 09:58 - Jun 27 with 1760 views | Radlett_blue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 06:48 - Jun 27 by WeWereZombies |
But you are not taking on board the question that was asked, there were dissenting voices at the time that we launched bombing strikes against German cities, some of those dissenting voices were within the War Cabinet, some were in the armed forces. And the reasons were not only the ones you view as soft. Firstly, at a time of very scarce resources area bombing was a waste. Secondly, as was seen from British reactions, killing civilians tended to strengthen the resolve and play into the hands of the propagandists deluding (in the case of the Nazis), rather than the intended weakening, of the population attacked. [Post edited 27 Jun 2018 8:20]
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"Area bombing, as promoted by Arthur Harris was controversial even at the time, partly as a result of the high civilian casualties but partly as some considered it wasteful. At the time, especially when bombing at night, it would be near impossible to hit a strategic target so hence area bombing was a more rational strategy. However, the creating of firestorms, especially in wooden cities, was to my mind indefensible as it would largely destroy civilian housing & cost lives. Daytime bombing was used, particularly by the Americans, but unsurprisingly loss of aircraft was much higher. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:47 - Jun 27 with 1746 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 22:22 - Jun 24 by factual_blue |
Censorship and propaganda meant most people were going to be unaware at the time of the impact of the raids on Dresden and Hamburg and many other German cities. In simple terms the intensity of the bombing caused the air itself to catch fire. The deaths must have been unimaginably horrible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm#City_firestorms
A war crime? Well, only the defeated are ever guilty of those. |
Haunts me that does, and I only read about Dresden when I was a teenager (big mistake). People literally vaporised in the intense heat. And just stains left on stone flags where people had been sheltering in basements and the like.
We started it too. Churchill's first act the day after becoming PM was to sanction firebomb attacks deliberately targeting civilians. That was the first time I believe. The blitz in London was some months later.
I don't want to judge as I've no idea what it must have been like at that time for people to want to resort to such despicable actions, but it certainly doesn't make you feel all proud and patriotic. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 14:47 - Jun 27 with 1705 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 11:47 - Jun 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Haunts me that does, and I only read about Dresden when I was a teenager (big mistake). People literally vaporised in the intense heat. And just stains left on stone flags where people had been sheltering in basements and the like.
We started it too. Churchill's first act the day after becoming PM was to sanction firebomb attacks deliberately targeting civilians. That was the first time I believe. The blitz in London was some months later.
I don't want to judge as I've no idea what it must have been like at that time for people to want to resort to such despicable actions, but it certainly doesn't make you feel all proud and patriotic. |
Guernica | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 15:02 - Jun 27 with 1696 views | jeera |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 14:47 - Jun 27 by WeWereZombies |
Guernica |
Hitler and Franco. Nice people.
36,000 off the top of my head. That about right?
For practice purposes. |  |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 15:53 - Jun 27 with 1672 views | WeWereZombies |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 15:02 - Jun 27 by jeera |
Hitler and Franco. Nice people.
36,000 off the top of my head. That about right?
For practice purposes. |
A bit lower than that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
Sad reality of poor relations between Franco and Hitler meant that Britain kept s diplomatic line to Madrid that probably propped up the Caudillo after World War II. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 18:52 - Jun 27 with 1650 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Were bomber command war criminals on 14:47 - Jun 27 by WeWereZombies |
Guernica |
Ah, I meant a first in the context of WW2. Yep, not a first in aerial bombing. | |
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| Were bomber command war criminals on 20:00 - Jun 27 with 1624 views | jeera |
Est 7,000 population. I was miles out.
Still... | |
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