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The Russians now claiming.... on 17:59 - Apr 19 by StokieBlue
So you accept those numbers because even though they are UK based they say something you like? Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?
One of the sources they use is the SOHR which you rubbished in your previous post yet you seem to not mind them using it now the numbers are something you want to see.
The fog of war is unfortunately everywhere, for instance:
For the coalition: "Some 149 further contested events (943 to 1,384 deaths) may have involved Russian aircraft in Syria."
Further reading shows the Russian number to be anything from 6000 to 15000, nobody seems to know. I also can’t find the coalition number with the Iraq number removed so a like for like comparison can be made.
What it has shown is the figures for both sides are bad and Russia is on par with the coalition (likely above when you remove Iraq numbers and also over a shorter timescale) so why don’t we see condemnation of the Russian civilian casualties? It’s also a very depressing looking at those numbers. Very depressing indeed.
SB
"Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?"
Damn, i forgot the rules of the game - Do not pass go and do not mention Coalition caused civilian fatalities in Iraq.
Where have i said that i have accepted these numbers?
You were the one that brought in Airwars not me. I was just displaying their findings. Didn't you say earlier civilian fatalities due to the Russians was 7500+ ?
Doesn't quite tally with the Airwars estimation and that was you that brought them into the argument.
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The Russians now claiming.... on 19:43 - Apr 19 with 5188 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 19:19 - Apr 19 by lowhouseblue
i label people pro-russia or pro-assad based on what they post. the waddle and quack test.
if you read david aaronvitch you will see what he thinks of apologists for dictators and those who simply parrot the latest russian or assad line. read him today for example. your attacks on the white helmets, for example, simply repeat a russian manufactured line which is intended to undermine the only independent observers of assad's atrocities.
Oh i know what he thinks, pity he seems to have forgotten what he said back then about not trusting the UK and US goverments ever again. There's a man who keeps his word - not. Oh well.
"the waddle and quack test."
Tell me, does Bellingcat the blogger - 'the home of online investigations' pass the.....lol......"waddle and quack test"?
[Post edited 19 Apr 2018 19:45]
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The Russians now claiming.... on 20:34 - Apr 19 with 5162 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 19:19 - Apr 19 by lowhouseblue
i label people pro-russia or pro-assad based on what they post. the waddle and quack test.
if you read david aaronvitch you will see what he thinks of apologists for dictators and those who simply parrot the latest russian or assad line. read him today for example. your attacks on the white helmets, for example, simply repeat a russian manufactured line which is intended to undermine the only independent observers of assad's atrocities.
And the gullible take it in
Tonight's Stop the War demo in Westminster contains a mix of many views: - Those who think bombing never helps - Those who think the PM should have asked MPs first - But also, those who think Assad is a 'good man' because 'he's a doctor'. pic.twitter.com/1HrBFg2An5
The Russians now claiming.... on 20:34 - Apr 19 by GlasgowBlue
And the gullible take it in
Tonight's Stop the War demo in Westminster contains a mix of many views: - Those who think bombing never helps - Those who think the PM should have asked MPs first - But also, those who think Assad is a 'good man' because 'he's a doctor'. pic.twitter.com/1HrBFg2An5
Hes a doctor for goodness sake....he trained with harold shipman....this is typical of the mad left its so scary this is a stock Corbyn supporter ....makes tommy robinson look sane!
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The Russians now claiming.... on 20:45 - Apr 19 with 5150 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 19:32 - Apr 19 by Bluesquid
"Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?"
Damn, i forgot the rules of the game - Do not pass go and do not mention Coalition caused civilian fatalities in Iraq.
Where have i said that i have accepted these numbers?
You were the one that brought in Airwars not me. I was just displaying their findings. Didn't you say earlier civilian fatalities due to the Russians was 7500+ ?
Doesn't quite tally with the Airwars estimation and that was you that brought them into the argument.
So we can agree that Russia are equally happy to drop bombs on 'brown people' then?
I'm not in favour of our air strikes either by the way, it just seems odd that you vehemently oppose those by the west but don't seem to have a problem with Russian led strikes. (If you've condemned them elsewhere then apologies)
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The Russians now claiming.... on 20:55 - Apr 19 with 5137 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 20:45 - Apr 19 by m14_blue
So we can agree that Russia are equally happy to drop bombs on 'brown people' then?
I'm not in favour of our air strikes either by the way, it just seems odd that you vehemently oppose those by the west but don't seem to have a problem with Russian led strikes. (If you've condemned them elsewhere then apologies)
Please dot criticise the democratically elected Putin or his friends on here whilst they openly admit they execute their opponents really they are a lovely bunch...they are blameless ..its the nasty westerners that the source of all evil in the world....
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The Russians now claiming.... on 21:12 - Apr 19 with 5120 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 20:45 - Apr 19 by m14_blue
So we can agree that Russia are equally happy to drop bombs on 'brown people' then?
I'm not in favour of our air strikes either by the way, it just seems odd that you vehemently oppose those by the west but don't seem to have a problem with Russian led strikes. (If you've condemned them elsewhere then apologies)
I oppose the US/UK/West and it's allies in the ME pushing it's regime change agenda - Iraq, Libya and now Syria.
With their Al-qaeda and Isis linked jihadis on the ground.
For the first 3 years Russia were not involved militarily in Syria and they watched as Isis grew, going from strength to strength.
They intervened to help their ally just as i would expect the UK to act regarding an ally whose country had been invaded by terrorists.
Ask yourself, why did Russia intervene?
Time to wake up...
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The Russians now claiming.... on 21:22 - Apr 19 with 5100 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 19:32 - Apr 19 by Bluesquid
"Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?"
Damn, i forgot the rules of the game - Do not pass go and do not mention Coalition caused civilian fatalities in Iraq.
Where have i said that i have accepted these numbers?
You were the one that brought in Airwars not me. I was just displaying their findings. Didn't you say earlier civilian fatalities due to the Russians was 7500+ ?
Doesn't quite tally with the Airwars estimation and that was you that brought them into the argument.
"Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?"
Because we are discussing Syria and I clearly said the numbers were referring to Syria. The Iraq numbers aren't considered is because unless the sample source is the same the comparison is meaningless - it's basic statistics. We are debating the Russian civilian casualties in Syria, thus if you want to compare to the wests you need to use the same sample rules.
"Where have i said that i have accepted these numbers? "
You seem to be reluctant to accept any civilian casualties at all caused by Russia and certainly don't want to condemn them. It makes your entire argument look flawed and partisan.
"You were the one that brought in Airwars not me. I was just displaying their findings. Didn't you say earlier civilian fatalities due to the Russians was 7500+ ? "
You wanted another source, I found one quickly. The airwars numbers are within 10% of the previous number I gave you and they come with a whole load of caveats which I outlined in my previous post which makes it likely they are very low-end. You either ignored them or didn't like them. Why don't you go read the entire page you quoted from there along with other pages rather than the one sentence you decided to quote.
Everything tallies pretty well given the limited confirmed numbers. Either way you still haven't condemned any Russian civilian deaths. Do you only condemn civilian deaths caused by western explosive compounds?
SB
Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024
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The Russians now claiming.... on 22:32 - Apr 19 with 5025 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 22:28 - Apr 19 by StokieBlue
"Why have you included numbers for Iraq as well in a discussion on Syria?"
Because we are discussing Syria and I clearly said the numbers were referring to Syria. The Iraq numbers aren't considered is because unless the sample source is the same the comparison is meaningless - it's basic statistics. We are debating the Russian civilian casualties in Syria, thus if you want to compare to the wests you need to use the same sample rules.
"Where have i said that i have accepted these numbers? "
You seem to be reluctant to accept any civilian casualties at all caused by Russia and certainly don't want to condemn them. It makes your entire argument look flawed and partisan.
"You were the one that brought in Airwars not me. I was just displaying their findings. Didn't you say earlier civilian fatalities due to the Russians was 7500+ ? "
You wanted another source, I found one quickly. The airwars numbers are within 10% of the previous number I gave you and they come with a whole load of caveats which I outlined in my previous post which makes it likely they are very low-end. You either ignored them or didn't like them. Why don't you go read the entire page you quoted from there along with other pages rather than the one sentence you decided to quote.
Everything tallies pretty well given the limited confirmed numbers. Either way you still haven't condemned any Russian civilian deaths. Do you only condemn civilian deaths caused by western explosive compounds?
SB
Of course the Russians have caused civilian casualties and that is absolutely terrible and i totally condemn it. Absolutely everything needs to be done by the Russians to avoid civilian casualties.
According to the UN, a humanitarian pause is defined as "a cessation of hostilities negotiated purely for humanitarian purposes".
Russia announced humanitarian pauses regarding Aleppo and Ghouta which were extended.
Avoiding civilian casualties and allowing humanitarian pauses in the fighting to allow the medical teams to have access and ensure evacuation of the injured and sick and to allow civilians to leave via several corridors.
According to Airwars, 1,873 civilians were killed in the coalition capture of Raqqa.
I wonder if that figure could of been reduced somewhat maybe even halfed if the US had allowed United Nations requested humanitarian pauses.
"The Pentagon has rejected an urgent call by United Nations officials for a humanitarian pause in the US-led siege of Raqqa to allow the up to 25,000 civilians trapped in the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)-controlled Syrian city to escape the intensifying bloodshed."
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The Russians now claiming.... on 09:34 - Apr 20 with 4921 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 01:21 - Apr 20 by Bluesquid
Of course the Russians have caused civilian casualties and that is absolutely terrible and i totally condemn it. Absolutely everything needs to be done by the Russians to avoid civilian casualties.
According to the UN, a humanitarian pause is defined as "a cessation of hostilities negotiated purely for humanitarian purposes".
Russia announced humanitarian pauses regarding Aleppo and Ghouta which were extended.
Avoiding civilian casualties and allowing humanitarian pauses in the fighting to allow the medical teams to have access and ensure evacuation of the injured and sick and to allow civilians to leave via several corridors.
According to Airwars, 1,873 civilians were killed in the coalition capture of Raqqa.
I wonder if that figure could of been reduced somewhat maybe even halfed if the US had allowed United Nations requested humanitarian pauses.
"The Pentagon has rejected an urgent call by United Nations officials for a humanitarian pause in the US-led siege of Raqqa to allow the up to 25,000 civilians trapped in the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)-controlled Syrian city to escape the intensifying bloodshed."
Right. All efforts should be made to avoid civilian deaths but the idea of turning this into a "who has killed more civilians" p!!swing contest when the west is actually arming and funding the very people the US claim to be fighting in the first place is distinctly lacking in reason.
It's much better to endlessly pump out information that deflects from this reality. Information like Evil Putin from Evilland is packing his smart weapons into dumb rusty barrels to cause maximum civilian harm, because he can and that's just the crazy thing evil smirking monsters do. When in reality, it's as illogical as Assad using CWs on his people right now when his fight against ISIS is as good as won.
The Russians now claiming.... on 09:34 - Apr 20 by HurleyBurley
Right. All efforts should be made to avoid civilian deaths but the idea of turning this into a "who has killed more civilians" p!!swing contest when the west is actually arming and funding the very people the US claim to be fighting in the first place is distinctly lacking in reason.
It's much better to endlessly pump out information that deflects from this reality. Information like Evil Putin from Evilland is packing his smart weapons into dumb rusty barrels to cause maximum civilian harm, because he can and that's just the crazy thing evil smirking monsters do. When in reality, it's as illogical as Assad using CWs on his people right now when his fight against ISIS is as good as won.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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The Russians now claiming.... on 09:49 - Apr 20 with 4904 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 09:34 - Apr 20 by HurleyBurley
Right. All efforts should be made to avoid civilian deaths but the idea of turning this into a "who has killed more civilians" p!!swing contest when the west is actually arming and funding the very people the US claim to be fighting in the first place is distinctly lacking in reason.
It's much better to endlessly pump out information that deflects from this reality. Information like Evil Putin from Evilland is packing his smart weapons into dumb rusty barrels to cause maximum civilian harm, because he can and that's just the crazy thing evil smirking monsters do. When in reality, it's as illogical as Assad using CWs on his people right now when his fight against ISIS is as good as won.
- It's not a contest, just a one-sided argument from you and others. I just wanted an acknowledgment that Russia has killed a lot of civilians. You mentioned people thought it was fine for the west to kill brown civilians whilst totally ignoring Russia, something which was right to be pulled up.
- Russia don't make all efforts to avoid civilian casualties because they don't use smart munitions in Syria.
Putin is fairly evil in a way, it's essentially a dictatorship in which dissent is put down and information is state controlled. He's diverted vast sums of money away from state projects into his own accounts and by some estimates is now one of the richest people in the world whilst his citizens experience huge inflation and struggle. Some of the population like it this way that's certainly true but a good portion don't.
SB
[Post edited 20 Apr 2018 10:08]
Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024
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The Russians now claiming.... on 10:08 - Apr 20 with 4882 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 09:49 - Apr 20 by StokieBlue
- It's not a contest, just a one-sided argument from you and others. I just wanted an acknowledgment that Russia has killed a lot of civilians. You mentioned people thought it was fine for the west to kill brown civilians whilst totally ignoring Russia, something which was right to be pulled up.
- Russia don't make all efforts to avoid civilian casualties because they don't use smart munitions in Syria.
Putin is fairly evil in a way, it's essentially a dictatorship in which dissent is put down and information is state controlled. He's diverted vast sums of money away from state projects into his own accounts and by some estimates is now one of the richest people in the world whilst his citizens experience huge inflation and struggle. Some of the population like it this way that's certainly true but a good portion don't.
SB
[Post edited 20 Apr 2018 10:08]
Yes, facts are important. Linking to guardian articles to illustrate these facts is as unbalanced as a Russian linking you to TAS in support of a contrary argument.
Putin robbing the Russians is perfectly possible but largely unproven.
I'd say May's pushing for a multi-national missile launch, getting it and then seeing her husband's wealth soar as a result of his share holdings in related industries nastier still. The UK press's silence on this fact is also mirrors the levels of media control we accuse other much nastier countries of having.
The Russians now claiming.... on 10:08 - Apr 20 by HurleyBurley
Yes, facts are important. Linking to guardian articles to illustrate these facts is as unbalanced as a Russian linking you to TAS in support of a contrary argument.
Putin robbing the Russians is perfectly possible but largely unproven.
I'd say May's pushing for a multi-national missile launch, getting it and then seeing her husband's wealth soar as a result of his share holdings in related industries nastier still. The UK press's silence on this fact is also mirrors the levels of media control we accuse other much nastier countries of having.
"Linking to guardian articles to illustrate these facts is as unbalanced as a Russian linking you to TAS in support of a contrary argument"
so you think that the guardian is owned and controlled by the state? cos otherwise the two really aren't very similar.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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The Russians now claiming.... on 10:20 - Apr 20 with 4869 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 10:08 - Apr 20 by HurleyBurley
Yes, facts are important. Linking to guardian articles to illustrate these facts is as unbalanced as a Russian linking you to TAS in support of a contrary argument.
Putin robbing the Russians is perfectly possible but largely unproven.
I'd say May's pushing for a multi-national missile launch, getting it and then seeing her husband's wealth soar as a result of his share holdings in related industries nastier still. The UK press's silence on this fact is also mirrors the levels of media control we accuse other much nastier countries of having.
You are getting beyond ridiculous now. You could google and find any number of articles showing Russian aren't using smart munitions from varied sources dating back to the start of their intervention. There are pages and pages of such sources, all different. Instead of that you just say "it's a western source, it's wrong". There is no point me linking any sources because you will just dismiss them. You can go look yourself on organisations such as HRW or wherever to see they aren't using smart weapons. It's actually pretty pathetic.
"I'd say May's pushing for a multi-national missile launch, getting it and then seeing her husband's wealth soar as a result of his share holdings in related industries nastier still. The UK press's silence on this fact is also mirrors the levels of media control we accuse other much nastier countries of having."
Go on then, post your proof. Name some stocks which you know he has which have "soared". Nothing has particulary soared in the last week in real terms. I find it hard to believe that the launch of 100 already produced missiles effects a share price that much. To claim it was one of the reasons for the attack is tinfoil hattery. As for May pushing for the launch, it was clearly Macron doing the pushing but once again that doesn't fit your narrative.
You are becoming increasingly desperate and increasingly tedious.
SB
Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024
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The Russians now claiming.... on 10:20 - Apr 20 with 4868 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 10:12 - Apr 20 by HurleyBurley
Couldn't be bothered to look at the linked article. I can't remember my posting habits as i only post here when Vlad gives me the nod.
I'm happy for you to go ahead and waste your time working it all out.
didn't take long. 11th april. which exactly coincides with the 4,000% rise in russia's online propaganda output (that's the article you can't be bothered with). we all take our inspiration from surprising places.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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The Russians now claiming.... on 10:33 - Apr 20 with 4856 views
The Russians now claiming.... on 10:20 - Apr 20 by StokieBlue
You are getting beyond ridiculous now. You could google and find any number of articles showing Russian aren't using smart munitions from varied sources dating back to the start of their intervention. There are pages and pages of such sources, all different. Instead of that you just say "it's a western source, it's wrong". There is no point me linking any sources because you will just dismiss them. You can go look yourself on organisations such as HRW or wherever to see they aren't using smart weapons. It's actually pretty pathetic.
"I'd say May's pushing for a multi-national missile launch, getting it and then seeing her husband's wealth soar as a result of his share holdings in related industries nastier still. The UK press's silence on this fact is also mirrors the levels of media control we accuse other much nastier countries of having."
Go on then, post your proof. Name some stocks which you know he has which have "soared". Nothing has particulary soared in the last week in real terms. I find it hard to believe that the launch of 100 already produced missiles effects a share price that much. To claim it was one of the reasons for the attack is tinfoil hattery. As for May pushing for the launch, it was clearly Macron doing the pushing but once again that doesn't fit your narrative.
You are becoming increasingly desperate and increasingly tedious.
SB
As an aside, have you been watching - 'Putin, Russia & the West', on TV, very intersting demonstrating what a duplicitous bunch of A/holes politicians really are
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