| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:22 - Mar 15 with 2082 views | Darth_Koont |
I think that's a pretty realistic view actually.
Yes to costs but also a yes to tangible benefits in the mid- to long-term. And he's right about why we should fear a sharpening of the austerity cuts post-Brexit. |  |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:40 - Mar 15 with 2060 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:22 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
I think that's a pretty realistic view actually.
Yes to costs but also a yes to tangible benefits in the mid- to long-term. And he's right about why we should fear a sharpening of the austerity cuts post-Brexit. |
Well yes, we tried buying you off, but the price just rose! |  |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:56 - Mar 15 with 2046 views | Swansea_Blue |
Interesting opinion, albeit propped up on assumptions / supposition. I find the singular focus on the European Single Market to be somewhat stifling the debate (as it does with Brexit). There are a whole host of reasons why you would or wouldn't want to maintain the political relations status quo in both these cases, but we hear little of that (the article DK linked yo yesterday wrt IndyRef v1 was good in opening out the topics in that regard).
It's as if in this world of soundbites and twitter people have lost the ability to consider more than one piece of information at a time. We're living in a world of binary thinking.
The other thing I find strange is how easily the case for independence is dismissed on economic grounds because the UK 'subsidises Scotland'. It may well do, but if it needs to it's because of the economic framework placed on Scotland by the UK in the first place. Outside of that construct you only need to look to Nordic countries to see what's possible for countries with a comparable geography and population size. From the figures I've seen Scotland is generating enough wealth to allow it to function as an independent country (GDP per capita comparable to the UK average, France, Belgium, etc.). That's an ultimately simplistic view and the devil will be in the detail, but gives a base to build on.
I have no strong interest or preference about another referendum and its consequences, but it would be a fascinating process to watch Scotland gain its independence. |  |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:59 - Mar 15 with 2028 views | J2BLUE |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:22 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
I think that's a pretty realistic view actually.
Yes to costs but also a yes to tangible benefits in the mid- to long-term. And he's right about why we should fear a sharpening of the austerity cuts post-Brexit. |
Wouldn't you need similar cuts anyway with your share of the national debt? |  |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:59 - Mar 15 with 2027 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:40 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
Well yes, we tried buying you off, but the price just rose! |
Who would have thought that the most centralised country in Western democracy would need to subsidise its regions? And that those costs would grow as that power has just sucked up the revenue from our new industries that have usurped the regional ones?
It's almost like there was never a plan bar a Magic Money Fairy who would trickle cash over the country. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:00 - Mar 15 with 2013 views | No9 |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:56 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Interesting opinion, albeit propped up on assumptions / supposition. I find the singular focus on the European Single Market to be somewhat stifling the debate (as it does with Brexit). There are a whole host of reasons why you would or wouldn't want to maintain the political relations status quo in both these cases, but we hear little of that (the article DK linked yo yesterday wrt IndyRef v1 was good in opening out the topics in that regard).
It's as if in this world of soundbites and twitter people have lost the ability to consider more than one piece of information at a time. We're living in a world of binary thinking.
The other thing I find strange is how easily the case for independence is dismissed on economic grounds because the UK 'subsidises Scotland'. It may well do, but if it needs to it's because of the economic framework placed on Scotland by the UK in the first place. Outside of that construct you only need to look to Nordic countries to see what's possible for countries with a comparable geography and population size. From the figures I've seen Scotland is generating enough wealth to allow it to function as an independent country (GDP per capita comparable to the UK average, France, Belgium, etc.). That's an ultimately simplistic view and the devil will be in the detail, but gives a base to build on.
I have no strong interest or preference about another referendum and its consequences, but it would be a fascinating process to watch Scotland gain its independence. |
You are not allowed to deal in facts on here |  | | |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:03 - Mar 15 with 2017 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:59 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
Wouldn't you need similar cuts anyway with your share of the national debt? |
As long as we take our share of the nationalised assets then that's fine.
How have you clowns run up a 1.7 trillion debt by the way? It's still growing and we're not even in a recession FFS. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:03 - Mar 15 with 2014 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:00 - Mar 15 by No9 |
You are not allowed to deal in facts on here |
That's a good job because i don't know many! | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:04 - Mar 15 with 2010 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 13:59 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
Who would have thought that the most centralised country in Western democracy would need to subsidise its regions? And that those costs would grow as that power has just sucked up the revenue from our new industries that have usurped the regional ones?
It's almost like there was never a plan bar a Magic Money Fairy who would trickle cash over the country. |
I'm not sure I get your point - are you saying that it's London's fault that Scottish industry isn't currently capable of sustaining the Scottish welfare state? | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:06 - Mar 15 with 2000 views | J2BLUE |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:03 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
As long as we take our share of the nationalised assets then that's fine.
How have you clowns run up a 1.7 trillion debt by the way? It's still growing and we're not even in a recession FFS. |
Scotland absolutely should get their share of national assets.
Are Scotland not part of the UK? Why 'you clowns'? Perhaps we should cut Scottish spending per capita to make it in line with England? | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:06 - Mar 15 with 2000 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:03 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
As long as we take our share of the nationalised assets then that's fine.
How have you clowns run up a 1.7 trillion debt by the way? It's still growing and we're not even in a recession FFS. |
cake and eat time - either you want a welfare state or you don't, but don't complain about the debt that supports it through troubled times. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:18 - Mar 15 with 1963 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:06 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
Scotland absolutely should get their share of national assets.
Are Scotland not part of the UK? Why 'you clowns'? Perhaps we should cut Scottish spending per capita to make it in line with England? |
Which part of England? We get roughly the same as the North East for example.
Surprised you haven't had a go at the Northern Irish who are well out in front on the subsidy score. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:22 - Mar 15 with 1959 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:06 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
cake and eat time - either you want a welfare state or you don't, but don't complain about the debt that supports it through troubled times. |
Increase the fecking taxes!!! Look around the world and see how other countries build modern, sustainable and happy societies.
Or we can keep taking our prompts from the US because we're dazzled by the occasional flash of bling. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:23 - Mar 15 with 1943 views | J2BLUE |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:18 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
Which part of England? We get roughly the same as the North East for example.
Surprised you haven't had a go at the Northern Irish who are well out in front on the subsidy score. |
If they want to join a united Ireland I wouldn't be opposed. [Post edited 15 Mar 2017 14:29]
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:28 - Mar 15 with 1924 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:22 - Mar 15 by Darth_Koont |
Increase the fecking taxes!!! Look around the world and see how other countries build modern, sustainable and happy societies.
Or we can keep taking our prompts from the US because we're dazzled by the occasional flash of bling. |
But you were just bemoaning the fact that Scottish Industry can't support the Scottish state (i think!). Your industry might find that task even more tricky with higher taxes, while your workers would have less readies if you increased the tax on them. Seems to be the way it works at least. [Post edited 15 Mar 2017 14:29]
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:30 - Mar 15 with 1901 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:23 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
If they want to join a united Ireland I wouldn't be opposed. [Post edited 15 Mar 2017 14:29]
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Who would be? Apart from sectarians, ideologues and empire dreamers.
But you can see how this is getting a lot closer thanks to a naive electorate and a worryingly naive government itself. This isn't just Brexit, this is decades of being asleep at the wheel and smugly satisfied with the status quo. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:50 - Mar 15 with 1856 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:28 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
But you were just bemoaning the fact that Scottish Industry can't support the Scottish state (i think!). Your industry might find that task even more tricky with higher taxes, while your workers would have less readies if you increased the tax on them. Seems to be the way it works at least. [Post edited 15 Mar 2017 14:29]
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But it's Catch-22. We're reliant on handouts from a government we fundamentally disagree with more often than not. A government who has no genuine commitment to boosting our regional economy or that of any of the regions for that matter. As long as the money comes into UK Inc they see it as job done.
And they're ideologically misguided enough to think that revenue will somehow be redistributed across and through society. But most of what we export like London-based financial services doesn't need lower-level workers or raw materials or components or subsidiary services out in the sticks, There's no chain along which to spread the value and little production to reinvest in. That's where the subsidies come in because of how our economy is designed.
If no government is going to change that and look to actively redevelop the regional economies then we're trapped with what we've got. So getting out from that becomes a necessity even if the short-term cost (investment really) is punishing. In any case, I think independence could very well generate a lot of foreign direct investment very quickly which could fill much of the gap. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 15:25 - Mar 15 with 1804 views | feelingblue |
It is hard to disagree, although setting off into uncertainty is a difficult decision. However being dragged down the toilet against your will is not an attractive prospect either. |  | | |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 15:40 - Mar 15 with 1764 views | WeWereZombies |
Shame the illustration that heads the piece has turned Ireland into a butterfly with the saltire of St. Andrew upon it, oh well, it is the Grauniad.
Monbiot always sounds like he is talking sense but in such a way as to make you want to disagree with him, I saw him speak at WOMAD ten or so years ago hoping to be filled with missionary zeal and came away somewhat underwhelmed. Perhaps he appeals to reason too much? I prefer the piece that Feeling Blue opened this thread with and that piece Darth posted up yesterday, seemed more optimistic for the whole United Kingdom if only people would pull the wool away from their eyes... [Post edited 15 Mar 2017 15:49]
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 15:56 - Mar 15 with 1719 views | WeWereZombies |
That would be funny if it was not so tragic, but at least it shows she knew what could go down and she has used that to keep the lid on things - so far... | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 16:40 - Mar 15 with 1669 views | No9 |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 15:56 - Mar 15 by WeWereZombies |
That would be funny if it was not so tragic, but at least it shows she knew what could go down and she has used that to keep the lid on things - so far... |
It is difficult not to form the opinion that she is no more & no less than a cheapskate opportunist.
However she has an overblown opinion of her competence (she was a useless Home Secretary) and is trying to take on allcomers which may not work out well for her.
If she makes one small slip the tory knives will be in her back in a flash | | | |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 16:58 - Mar 15 with 1629 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 14:04 - Mar 15 by giant_stow |
I'm not sure I get your point - are you saying that it's London's fault that Scottish industry isn't currently capable of sustaining the Scottish welfare state? |
Not London per se. Times and markets change but to just assume that the country as a whole can cope with a redistribution of production and revenue without attempting to invest and redistribute that wealth is frankly incompetence and/or a sign of an unfit ideology.
A proper country would have focused on creating hubs for new industries, great deals for foreign investment, funds for training and re-training and a general focus on free, high-quality education. Our governments in recent years have focused far, far more on giving individuals more money to go on holiday and pay for their wildly over-expensive living arrangements. Whatever gets them the next 5-year term rather than anything remotely long-term. | |
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| Scottish referendum and Brexit on 17:06 - Mar 15 with 1606 views | bluelagos |
There's been some excellent coverage of the Indyref2 in the I the last couple of days. Really growing on me as a paper. |  |
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