surco72 i could not agree more that is not working but i see not having a settled back 4 as the main reason. a defensive midfielder works essian at chelsea, hargreaves or fletcher at utd. arsenal not won anything since viera left and liverpool not doing great since alonso left. i still think overalll this will be a good season just a poor, ok very poor start

dirtydingusmagee - Didn't mean to offend. It just strikes me that these so-called plans that clubs/managers have are pretty meaningless. Ok as an ambition/target - but nothing more than that.

RK has certainly said some pretty daft things in the past, but then, so have many other managers.

I expect Naaarich also 'plan' to be back in the Prem in 2 years!

Can't think of too many good performances from Trotter in midfield this or last season yet he was given a damn good run in the team ahead of Garvan..at least Garvan is capable of scoring/providing chances.
If Garvan joins Cardiff , Dave Jones (someone who i'd love to see here btw) will get the best out of him as he's a brilliant man-manager who also buys wisely.

Come january (if he's still here-hopefully not Santa), Keane'll be given more precious money to squander...Does anyone honestly think he's got the "best" out of what he's brought in so far?...even Leadbitter's not playing to his full potential.
The odd good performance at home to average sides doesn't sell it to me i'm afraid....and how much money will he want to rebuild again if he's here next summer? (God-forbid)...Keane manages like it's fantasy footy or Pro Evo.

I take on board all and everything that is being said, honestly i do.

All i was trying to say is we can scream and throw toys out of the pram as much as we want on here ME still has final say.
He gave RK a 2 yr contract, and with it a business plan, no businessman will tear up a business plan at such an infant stage....ALL I'M SAYING.

CGS i know your POV nd you know mine, it differs, so what.
I agree with you (shock, horror) that our position in the table is not good enough, but i also believe that it will improve...its that or jump off of the Orwell bridge!!

But whatever our point of view, and to what extreme we hold that POV, WE CAN DO SWEET F.A ABOUT IT!!!!!
Maybe thats not quite true, we stay away from PR, but I for one could not and would not do that even if we appointed Bryan Gunn (God forbid)!
So all i say is we have to go with it , and see where it takes us,,,simples!!!

Sorry also meant to say, why are all the Garvan fans prepared to put up with a player who shows no passion for the club?

He could be good, you dont become bad overnight, and if as i suspect you all rush to blame RK, let me ask you all a question.

If you were being bullied/left out or whatever it is that RK is supposedly doing to him.
If you were Garvan, wouldnt you say F*CK YOU Mr Keane, and prove him wrong, i know i would!!!!!

RK must have a bl***y big office from the amount of people on here who know exactly how he talks to the players! From what I can see he is getting some damn good performances out of previous underachievers and it is obvious watching OG (did you see the last U21 performance!) that he is at best a luxury player and simply not up for the fight. I was a Magic fan and was keen to see him stay but times change and we have moved on and although I have endured every single minute of every single game (shame on those that walked out after the first goal v the barcodes!) am seeing an imporoved display. Yes they are not free flowing football matches but then where has that got us over the past 5 years; Burleys boys had a bit of steel in them and that's what we need know!

As for the multitude of Town players that have gone onto bigger and better things, I can probably name 5 as the majority turn out c**p (Dozzell, Kiwomya, R Wright to name but a few) from the past 10 years!!

OG isn't trying in training, in the reserves and in the paddy U21's so why the hell would anyone pick him, sure he had potential but according to my teachers 20 years ago so did I!!!

bedsit i agree but you have to pick with the players available to you Trotter and Quinn not good enough. As for Chelsea they play with 3 in the centre Essien holding , Ballack passing and Lampard breaking into the box , Man Utd the same Fletcher ,Carrick/Scholes and Giggs/Anderson ,Liverpool are struggling this year because they have lost their passer in Alonso they still have Mascherano as the defender and Gerrard as the box breaker and maybe Arsenal are missing some steel but they are great to watch without a defensive midfielder even if they dont win trophies i dont recall them being bottom at any time . Perhaps we could adopt this formation when Norris is back as the dynamo ,Garvan passing and Leadbitter in the box ?
Also the team rated No 1 in the world play with Xavi ,Iniesta and Fabregas in the middle no defensive midfielder there !

Surco72, completely agree, Barca are fantastic to watch right up to the point where they were turned over at home by some tractor makers from the Urals!! Think last season was fantastic but they have been found wanting in the middle this season and maybe need a holding midfielder??

We fail to win week in week out without him in the team! Why not try him.

I bet that Keane is too proud to admit that he had made a mistake or too proud to back down (for want of a better saying) to OG and give him a try. You play OG he will try harder in training, and im sure our results would improve! He is miles better than anyone else we have in cm apart from the obvious! I would ghonestly pick him over laedbitter for some games!

This is one of the main reasons (behind our position and his attitude) why I hate Roy Keane!

Bluebaz, exactly what i said in a previous post, be prepared for the blinkered to not respond to you as you make sense, and find it difficult to argue against the truth!

As i keep saying it is up to OG to win his way back into the team...if he has the bottle.
No-one has a divine right to be picked, espaecially if you bring nothing to the table.
And yes, i believe he has had the chances to show what he can do...training, ressies, Irish u21 etc
Prove Keane wrong,if not leave...simple

surco72 - iniesta does sit back compaired to the others. but agree when chuck comes back things will be better.
cgs - put og into the team and he will try harder in training????????
he is supposed to be a pro not a child.
i for one only want people in the team that will give 100% for 100% of the time.

As someone else said bedsit - he is the kinda player who needs an arm round his shoulders! trust me put him in and he will come good! He has created and scored more goals than any other midfielder in recent seasons!

we should play 5 in midfield (play to your strengths as our strikers are poor)

Norris
Garvan Leadbitter

Edwards Civelli/Walters

Stead/Pablo/Walters

Bluebaz i was talking about Spain as as far as i know Fabregas still plays for Arsenal . Injuredanimal is that the response you wanted as the truth ?

bluebaz: "RK must have a bl***y big office from the amount of people on here who know exactly how he talks to the players! ".

So we don't know what Roy says to his players. Fair enough.

"OG isn't trying in training"

yet you've obviously been to a load of training sessions and watch Garvan have you? Hmmmm. Doubt it.

And anyway, we all know that Garvan is a laid back player, and probably a laid back character. Keane seems to fail to understand that not everyone is the same. Not everyone responds to the same input. You say you'd try harder if you were bullied/pressured. Well done. Maybe Garvan needs an arm round the shoulder and encouragment to respond. It's not Garvan's fault if he doesn't react well to Keane's man-management. It's just how he is. But Keane should be able to treat each member of his squad in a way fitting for them.

Clearly Keane's approach isn't working as we know Garvan is a decent (if limited) player yet apparently he's utter rubbish at the moment, according to the pro-Keaners. That for me is entirely down to Keane not getting the best out of him.

Surco72: you're quite right. Liverpool are missing Alonso's passing, not his defending.

Burley's best teams had Dyer or Magilton in the creative role. Neither of them were defensive (and Holland wasn't especially defensive either).

I'd argue that the issue isn't lack of defensive cover in midfield but a complete lack of creativity.

Naa said - It's not Garvan's fault if he doesn't react well to Keane's man-management. It's just how he is. But Keane should be able to treat each member of his squad in a way fitting for them.

Your right Keane should be able to treat each member of the squad fittingly - but from what I have seen/heard of Keane this is something he does not do at all and it is 'Keanes way or the high way' - Its why so many players failed at sunderland, and here, he had to keep buying more players! He is only 21, that is even younger than me and you all know what i'm like!

And your also right in thinking that because keane dont like him and he aint playing alot of the fans are turning against (not wanting him to play) him!

Surco,totally agree with the midfield..I even suggested the "Liverpool way" a few weeks ago - Garvan & Leadbitter in front of the defence ala Alonso/Mascherano with Norris in the Gerrard role.
Then Walters out on the right,Edwards on the left & Counago up top..that for me would be as good as anything in the championship.

I'm really not all that bothered if Garvan packs his bags tbh. He showed a lot of promise as a youngster but he never really kicked on after he suffered the virus which kept him out of the team for a number of weeks a couple of years ago. He's had a few chances this season but has been virtually anonymous and going by the reports I've read he hasn't shown enough in the reserves to warrant a recall to the first team squad. A pity, but that's football. We move on....

I agree that RK does not appear to have the soft skills of some other managers, but I really can't see that OG was making much progress under Jim either.

I've watched every league home game that he has played in since he came into the first team and, as I've indicated previously, have become so frustrated with his inconsistency - and you cannot blame the manager (whoever it is) for that.

Agree that Garvan isn't God's gift and certainly hasn't come on as much as we'd have liked.

But the fact remains that a) he's a different option in midfield that Keane hasn't tried properly and b) he's a darn sight better than Trotter.

I saw someone post earlier that we should keep hold of Garvan even though he is slow and comparing him to Tom Huddlestone. It's true that both these players are slow, but Huddlestone is also physically strong, has defensive ability, can challenge in the air, has positional awareness, doesn't catch every flu bug going, and is a team player none of which Garvan is.
Garvan had been for a long time been our weakest player when he was starting in the midfield.It would be good to see him leave.

Last season it was Tommy Miller,and Quinn who were being slated as our weakest midfield players and Norris was such a waste of money or 2 million , now just because Keane doesnt like Garvan all the pro keaners are jumping on the bandwagon ,"has been our weakest midfielder for a long time " have you not been watching this season ? i could name a number of weaker midfield options . He was so weak last year he scored 7 goals in 22 starts , 1 in 3 for a midfielder who doesnt take penalties seems a good record to me ?

Nobrain ,no offense was taken ,i never gave it a thought .

If he had played every game for us this year we would NOT be where we are now!