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It's hard to draw that conclusion after listening to the above. I'm sure you will refer to his back catalogue though to which I am not party. On a more positive note though a good excuse for this...
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
It's hard to draw that conclusion after listening to the above. I'm sure you will refer to his back catalogue though to which I am not party. On a more positive note though a good excuse for this...
Nothing to do with what was posted above. He has a long record of antisemitism. Nick Griffin has also condemned the attacks on Gaza. That doesn’t make him less of a racist.
There are plenty of decent people speaking up for the Palestinian people. Not sure why we need to hear from a racist on the subject.
I saw this video earlier. I thought "Oh here we go, Roger is piling in" but actually what he says is quite sane for him!
Though I can't see his proposal of a single state solution ever working. Far too much bad blood on both sides
It’s actually the only option left. The two-state solution is gone and we’ve stood by and watched it happen.
And I think Israeli and Palestine citizens are ultimately in the same situation. Separating them puts civilians on opposing sides and extremes, and ensures it’s the loopy ethno-religious leaders who call the shots.
A single state solution surrounded by hostile nations would see the Jews driven into the sea.
Look what happened the day Israel gained nationhood. Attacked from all sides.
And whether his view in this particular issue sounds sane or not, I don’t want to hear from a China apologist, Putin supporting anti semite.
[Post edited 14 Oct 2023 11:12]
Every word demonstrably true.
I read he told audience members to f### off the other night when they got up and walked out of his show as it was crap. The dark side redux thing he's done sounds terrible. It's basically DSOTM with all Gilmours great guitar work removed. I won't be falling over myself to give it a listen.
On a positive note, I have a feeling that DG is back in the studio and recording a new album. Hopefully a tour from him next year maybe
I read he told audience members to f### off the other night when they got up and walked out of his show as it was crap. The dark side redux thing he's done sounds terrible. It's basically DSOTM with all Gilmours great guitar work removed. I won't be falling over myself to give it a listen.
On a positive note, I have a feeling that DG is back in the studio and recording a new album. Hopefully a tour from him next year maybe
Wouldn’t surrounding countries be less opposed to a true democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-faith than a state which, certainly from the Palestinian/Arab perspective, is built and increasingly run on the occupation and oppression of another race?
The current unbalanced and unhealthy situation has been perfect for extremism to flourish.
Wouldn’t surrounding countries be less opposed to a true democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-faith than a state which, certainly from the Palestinian/Arab perspective, is built and increasingly run on the occupation and oppression of another race?
The current unbalanced and unhealthy situation has been perfect for extremism to flourish.
Yeah. Iran and Syria are heavily invested in democratic, multi faith states.
Wouldn’t surrounding countries be less opposed to a true democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-faith than a state which, certainly from the Palestinian/Arab perspective, is built and increasingly run on the occupation and oppression of another race?
The current unbalanced and unhealthy situation has been perfect for extremism to flourish.
Agree from a security perspective but personally I just can't see all sides ever getting around a table and agreeing to it. Too much mistrust, hatred, etc
A single state solution surrounded by hostile nations would see the Jews driven into the sea.
Look what happened the day Israel gained nationhood. Attacked from all sides.
And whether his view in this particular issue sounds sane or not, I don’t want to hear from a China apologist, Putin supporting anti semite.
[Post edited 14 Oct 2023 11:12]
Yes, that seems to me a complete non-starter.
Given all they have suffered over centuries, the Jewish people deserve their own homeland.
So do the Palestinian people, and it is just a shame that this clause of the 1947 UN Resolution was never given effect to because it was rejected by Arab states and overtaken by events.
"Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, ... shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948."
Agree from a security perspective but personally I just can't see all sides ever getting around a table and agreeing to it. Too much mistrust, hatred, etc
Not with Netanyahu being kept in power by ultra religious terrorist supporting fanatics. But it’s come very close in the past.
Camp David failed because of Arafat’s ego and as I was reminded the other day by Clapham_Junction, Olmert offered the Palestinians pretty much everything they could hope to get in 2008, even half of Jerusalem but Abbas got snotty about it because it didn't include a full right of return.
Take Bibi and Hamas out of the equation whilst weakening Iran’s influence and there may still be a chance.
Given all they have suffered over centuries, the Jewish people deserve their own homeland.
So do the Palestinian people, and it is just a shame that this clause of the 1947 UN Resolution was never given effect to because it was rejected by Arab states and overtaken by events.
"Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, ... shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948."
[Post edited 14 Oct 2023 11:40]
“Given all they have suffered over centuries, the Jewish people deserve their own homeland”
I think that’s been the accepted narrative at least here in the West. But there’s no logic to how that will work when it necessarily involves the exclusion of others, and indeed the oppression of others.
We have to move from talking about people’s homeland to talking about a more universal and essential right for people to have a home. That’s true for both Palestinian and Israeli civilians who are entitled to that right because this is where both now live.
Compared to the current ideologically suspect Jewish-only version that shows little to no care or concern for their people, culture and beliefs?
When you address the causes and underlying injustices, extremism and extreme enmity have nowhere to take root and flourish.
I agree with the sentiment and Netanyahu is a roadmap to what you are describing, but it’s worth remembering that there are still Palestinian Muslim Arabs in the Israeli Parliament , army, police service and Judiciary.
Sadly, I don’t see the recent Hamas atrocities conning the Israeli people to elect another Peres or Olmert.
Wouldn’t surrounding countries be less opposed to a true democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-faith than a state which, certainly from the Palestinian/Arab perspective, is built and increasingly run on the occupation and oppression of another race?
The current unbalanced and unhealthy situation has been perfect for extremism to flourish.
What then would governments of surrounding countries have as a cause celebre to distract their citizens from domestic rights abuses and economic failures?
The Arab nations and Iran have made use of the Palestinian people for their own ends since 1948, all the time ignoring, marginalising or even attacking them when inconvenient or troublesome. Not to mention grabbing and occupying what was left of their territory after starting and losing a war which destroyed the UN-mandated settlement establishing a sovreign Palestinian state.
I sympathise with Israel (not its present government) and the Palestinian people, but not at all with the way their neighbours have behaved.
Given all they have suffered over centuries, the Jewish people deserve their own homeland.
So do the Palestinian people, and it is just a shame that this clause of the 1947 UN Resolution was never given effect to because it was rejected by Arab states and overtaken by events.
"Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, ... shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948."
[Post edited 14 Oct 2023 11:40]
The Palestinians were sold out by their religious leaders who demanded they go into exile rather than enter into a two state agreement, and by their Arab neighbours who attacked Israel from all sides. Especially Jordan who annexed the West Bank.
What then would governments of surrounding countries have as a cause celebre to distract their citizens from domestic rights abuses and economic failures?
The Arab nations and Iran have made use of the Palestinian people for their own ends since 1948, all the time ignoring, marginalising or even attacking them when inconvenient or troublesome. Not to mention grabbing and occupying what was left of their territory after starting and losing a war which destroyed the UN-mandated settlement establishing a sovreign Palestinian state.
I sympathise with Israel (not its present government) and the Palestinian people, but not at all with the way their neighbours have behaved.
What then would governments of surrounding countries have as a cause celebre to distract their citizens from domestic rights abuses and economic failures?
The Arab nations and Iran have made use of the Palestinian people for their own ends since 1948, all the time ignoring, marginalising or even attacking them when inconvenient or troublesome. Not to mention grabbing and occupying what was left of their territory after starting and losing a war which destroyed the UN-mandated settlement establishing a sovreign Palestinian state.
I sympathise with Israel (not its present government) and the Palestinian people, but not at all with the way their neighbours have behaved.
But isn’t that the point? It’s only the fact that opposition to Israel and its lived reality for the Palestinians is an entirely legitimate and understandable view among their people that it can be exploited in this way.
We can also learn from our own experience of this in Northern Ireland, not to mention any number of previously intractable conflicts between peoples. When you start looking at it from humanitarian and objective viewpoints rather than ideological or otherwise entrenched positions the reality for the people suffering in the middle takes over. As well as solutions that focus on their real needs and interests rather than the more abstract geo-political or faith-based “needs” and interests.
Not with Netanyahu being kept in power by ultra religious terrorist supporting fanatics. But it’s come very close in the past.
Camp David failed because of Arafat’s ego and as I was reminded the other day by Clapham_Junction, Olmert offered the Palestinians pretty much everything they could hope to get in 2008, even half of Jerusalem but Abbas got snotty about it because it didn't include a full right of return.
Take Bibi and Hamas out of the equation whilst weakening Iran’s influence and there may still be a chance.
I'm not sure using Bibi, his pet and army nickname, is appropriate. Makes him sound quite cuddly.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
But isn’t that the point? It’s only the fact that opposition to Israel and its lived reality for the Palestinians is an entirely legitimate and understandable view among their people that it can be exploited in this way.
We can also learn from our own experience of this in Northern Ireland, not to mention any number of previously intractable conflicts between peoples. When you start looking at it from humanitarian and objective viewpoints rather than ideological or otherwise entrenched positions the reality for the people suffering in the middle takes over. As well as solutions that focus on their real needs and interests rather than the more abstract geo-political or faith-based “needs” and interests.
They have a vested interest in stirring it up. That's why Hamas and Gaza is the flashpoint, rather than the Fatah and the West Bank, despite the fact it's the latter area where settler incursions are a serious problem. Hamas being a client of Tehran and their main point of contact for direct action (Hezbollah being far to cautious and not wanting to upset the applecart in Lebanon).
Northern Ireland, South Africa - great examples of situations where the poison has been drawn from a long-running sore by a hmanitarian and compromising approach. But both needed outstanding leaders, both within the warring communities and supporting them among the powers aligned on ether side. I can't currently see anyone who fulfills that role, whether in Israel/Palestine or outside.
While there are leaders prepared to pander to the most hateful elements and eschewing all compromise, in order to stay in power, backed by people outside who magnify the distress of one community or other to their own ends, if nobody is prepared to take a step back, putting away the decades of aggravation, then the situation will continue it's miserable festering.
Neither a one- or two-state solution will be the answer while the above remains true.
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